aRTD re-read

[Jitter]

So, introduction.

Yeah ok no. There are fat jokes on pages 1 and 2! It’s worse than I remembered. They are also very nasty to the kids although I do admit kids of that age are terrible (mine are 17 and 15).

It’s not all bad of course. I like the colors am much of the art. The page layouts are nice, especially considering this is her practice work.

I was reading both English and Finnish. Mostly the English is a lot better! But the radio announcement is better in Finnish. There are quite a lot of differences between the languages, all minor but still.

A couple of possibly interesting points about the Finnish. Puppy-Fox is called he. Or wellm well, hän is gender neutral but it’s the pronoun that in proper Finnish is used of people, and is not used of animals. This is probably because the Foxes speak a bit formally in any case. But then, in the human side, Hannu is called it, se. This is common usage in spoken Finnish but looks weird written, as most of the other vocabulary is not quite as informal.

Another thing is that in the translation, a pun is lost. The word for auroras is in Finnish revontuli, fox fire (fire of fox, would it be fox’s fire? Looks weird). I think the connection to foxes appears in other cultures too, but in Finnish this is the official name of the phenomenon although they may sometimes be called auroras or fires of the north (pohjantuli) or sky fire (taivaan tuli).

[thorny]

So what is in these buns, which have no lactose, nuts, apples, cinnamon, or gluten? Or raisins.

-- any connection between the feast-shy Hannu who runs off to the woods and Lalli?

-- "merely a horse's serving"? I would think that a horse's serving would be quite a lot. Is this an idiom in Finnish? (There's an idiom in English 'to eat like a horse', but that means to eat a great deal.)

-- Hannu trying to sneak by crawling along the floor while all the students turn around to stare at him got a laugh out of me.

-- I keep expecting a hawk* to show up. But "redtail" here is the fox, isn't it?

-- Jitter, thanks for the information about the Finnish; which I have none of.

-- I do like the art.




*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-tailed_hawk

[catbirds]

For clarification I think aRTD was the first work where she consistently drew humans. I have no clue what she's drawn before aside from things posted on her DA account or her website archives

The interactions between the characters are really good too. Although the dialogue can be a bit stiff in places it's not too bad. Puppyfoxes arrogance comes across right away in his interactions with Hannu and Ville which I find entertaining. He's the kind of character you like to dislike. I also agree with Hannu about Paju. I would also get anxiety if I were around her too long. Although I like how she treats him like he's not a full grown adult.

Yeahhh they're very lively interactions, though it's unfortunate that they get scattered across time and space and do not talk much until the very end of the story! But that's the way it always is, and there's always the one-to-one interactions you get in each chapter. Puppyfox was well-written, and it's funny how he only arrives all mysteriously to deliver more bad/frustrating news to our protagonists.

A couple of possibly interesting points about the Finnish. Puppy-Fox is called he. Or wellm well, hän is gender neutral but it’s the pronoun that in proper Finnish is used of people, and is not used of animals. This is probably because the Foxes speak a bit formally in any case. But then, in the human side, Hannu is called it, se. This is common usage in spoken Finnish but looks weird written, as most of the other vocabulary is not quite as informal.

Another thing is that in the translation, a pun is lost. The word for auroras is in Finnish revontuli, fox fire (fire of fox, would it be fox’s fire? Looks weird). I think the connection to foxes appears in other cultures too, but in Finnish this is the official name of the phenomenon although they may sometimes be called auroras or fires of the north (pohjantuli) or sky fire (taivaan tuli).

I've been wondering how the story would sound in Finnish for a while! Hmm, the foxes might use the gender neutral human pronoun because they perceive each other as, like, basically other people maybe? I'm not familiar with the Finnish language, but that sounds like what the dialogue might've been getting at.

As for the fox fire/revontuli part, I always thought the foxes were just very significant in Finnish mythology. This article names one creature associated with fox fire/auroras. Is the part about there being a full council of them mostly fictional? I remember there were some other things in SSSS that Minna took creative liberty with, like something about the parts of Finnish souls.

So what is in these buns, which have no lactose, nuts, apples, cinnamon, or gluten? Or raisins.

-- any connection between the feast-shy Hannu who runs off to the woods and Lalli?

The buns might be just a jab at various health foods and the way they're marketed. Though I think that's kind of unfair because some of these are things that lots of people might have allergies to (or can't digest?), like lactose, nuts, and gluten.

I think Hannu is a lot more unwilling to do work and mostly evasive, whereas Lalli's preference for the forest is partially for work reasons Both are shy, though.

[JoB]

So what is in these buns, which have no lactose, nuts, apples, cinnamon, or gluten? Or raisins.

Well, since they supposedly can cause obesity, there need to be some digestible calories in them. Possibly plain fat (which serves as a flavor amplifier, too).

-- any connection between the feast-shy Hannu who runs off to the woods and Lalli?

Hannu doesn't particularly like being outside, and they're very much polar opposites WRT work ethics, so my guess is that they're simply both not very sociable. ("And me", says the donkey ...)

Of course, as page 15 shows, Hannu was already in the habit of talking to Ville, at least. Just with slightly less verbose answers.

-- "merely a horse's serving"? I would think that a horse's serving would be quite a lot. Is this an idiom in Finnish? (There's an idiom in English 'to eat like a horse', but that means to eat a great deal.)

Couldn't find a hint at a Finnish idiom offhand, but could it actually mean "a serving of horse (meat)"? I expect an agricultural society to have workhorses which would get slaughtered and turned into a meal rarily, and certainly not at an age yielding prime meat.

-- I keep expecting a hawk* to show up. But "redtail" here is the fox, isn't it?

Most certainly. I mean, who else would be the dreaming "redtail" giving the entire œuvre its title? Ville?

-- I do like the art.

Me too, and I'm discovering additional details even now. Like the middle room in the school having a lot of foxes in portraits, as if they have been manning (foxing?) the position of the headmaster before Ms. Tikkanen. Or the address on the envelope reading "probably somewhere, some country". (Considering that puppy-fox' official name is "Pikku-Repolainen", I presume that "Repopost" translates to "fox mail", even though Transgarble refuses to comment on that?)

(It also refuses to translate "kuikan puoti" on page 6 ... while Tuomi crying for "muuuum" himself on page 10 is, of course, a slam-dunk.)

I forget ... the little white birds on page 12 have some meaning in Finnish mythology, too, don't they?

How come that Hannu has no idea of the floorplan (beyond the classroom right at the entrance, if he even knew that beforehand) of a school that he himself went to? (And while I'm ready to accept that this school has an outhouse, is it realistic that the classroom(s) take up only a third of the footprint?)

Hmmmm, it seems that Minnas Finnish alphabet here is missing not only the "Ö", but also the "Swedish O" (Å), which would be common among Fennoswedes like herself? But it does include "W", which is rather optional for Finns ...

Is that actually a remnant of the school building - piece of floor and a supporting pillar underneath, IIUC the Finns are used to houses with a raised floor because of their winters - that Hannu's left standing on on page 48? I initially thought it some sort of table, but a table in the middle of the woods with nothing to sit on next to it doesn't make a lot of sense ...

Edit to add: There don't seem to be any ZIP numbers starting "1234" in Finland (closest I get is 12380 in the Leppäkoski/Kiipula area), and the real-world Hokanniemi and Hokansalmi are 30 km apart bee-line, with 80+ km of streets to get from here to there, thanks to Finland being the land of lakes.

[Jitter]

The “merely a horse’s serving” is the same in Finnish, and “eat like a horse” means eating a lot here too. I think Hannu means to tease Ville that the meal Ville is dreaming about is even bigger than a horse’s serving. So “if food is expensive in this dream, you’ll need to settle for a huge meal instead of a humongous one”.

The council of foxes doesn’t ring a bell, so if it’s based on something it’s older than the everyday folklore that is still around. I just got a few books, I’ll try to remember to look up what they say about foxes or fox spirits. But I do think this is just an element made up by Minna, based on the word “revontuli”. The official and most commonly used name for fox in Finnish is btw kettu, but repo and repolainen are also known by everyone and used in e.g. children’s stories and songs.

The foxes calling Puppy Fox and the others (Moose at least is referred to) by “hän” (he/she) works in Finnish too, these animals/animal spirits are clearly persons. But it makes the way Hannu and other humans are called “se” (it) even more conspicuous.

Repoposti is indeed “fox mail”, Kuikan puoti = Kuikka’s shop where Kuikka is the family name of the owner(s). Kuikka is the waterfowl loon, it doesn’t have any connotations to crazy person like the word loon has in English.

[JoB]

The foxes calling Puppy Fox and the others (Moose at least is referred to) by “hän” (he/she) works in Finnish too, these animals/animal spirits are clearly persons. But it makes the way Hannu and other humans are called “se” (it) even more conspicuous.

Did Ms. Squirrel actually do that? Because apart from her, the only spirit animal in prologue and ch1 who even knew about Hannu and his villagemates is Puppy-Fox, and I bet that HE had to be actively convinced not to refer to most of his fellow spirits that way (as long as someone might hear him) as well ...

[Jitter]

Did Ms. Squirrel actually do that? Because apart from her, the only spirit animal in prologue and ch1 who even knew about Hannu and his villagemates is Puppy-Fox, and I bet that HE had to be actively convinced not to refer to most of his fellow spirits that way (as long as someone might hear him) as well ...

No, the foxes are not referring to Hannu at all. I mean in the village, for example on p 8 Paju tells Jonna to call Hannu, she literally says “call it and tell to come here”. Now, again, this is common in spoken Finnish, if this were a real situation or e.g. a TV series, “soita sille” (call it) would sound a lot more natural than “soita hänelle” (call him/her). But, in written Finnish it’s a lot less used, even when writing dialogue where presumably very informal  language is used.

[Suominoita]

Well, I suppose Minna tries to give it a little bit of spoken Finnish but not give any kind of clue to the region by dialect?

[catbirds]

It's time for discussions on Chapter 2 this week!

It's been fun reading this, and I remember I really liked it because it was the only time I could recall Hannu had to use something a little more scientific to solve a problem. It's pretty common knowledge that lightning just hits the tallest metal things in open fields, though, but it's still cool to see.

Uhhh... I could not stop imagining Ville as a ferret. It's the legs! Snakes do not have legs, and yet snake-ville does? It's such an odd detail that makes me think of him as a dragon instead. And there's also the fur???

But otherwise, this was just a pretty fun, quick chapter! The thing going on in the background has yet to rear its head, so it's just simple problem-solving right now. It makes for a really cute chapter! It's also around here that I thought the story would tip towards Hannu learning to get along with his fellow villagers again, considering how much he knew about most of them. And the art's begun to find its footing here, too. There are way fewer inconsistencies and it's just generally a cute art style. The animal faces still look a little strange, but Hannu is drawn much more consistently. I'm excited to talk about what happens later!

Spoiler: up to the end of the story • show

As much as I did enjoy the interactions with the villagers, I really start to wonder why he knows everyone so well but also hates interacting with them. If it's just a bit of shyness, I understand, but also I've never wanted to physically fight people I don't really get along with, especially at the age of twenty-five? This appears a lot more later on in the story, even though it's mild right now.

Also, I'm not sure if it counts as foreshadowing, but Hannu sure does get a lot of head injuries/bandages around his head, huh.

[JoB]

Uhhh... I could not stop imagining Ville as a ferret. It's the legs! Snakes do not have legs, and yet snake-ville does? It's such an odd detail that makes me think of him as a dragon instead. And there's also the fur???

Spoiler: preliminary and spoiler-y comment • show

Well, Ville not going all the shapeshifting way and retaining, in particular, his curly tail throughout the ordeals was set to become the running gag ...

Spoiler: up to the end of the story • show

Also, I'm not sure if it counts as foreshadowing, but Hannu sure does get a lot of head injuries/bandages around his head, huh.

You bet it is ...

[Jitter]

This was a nice chapter. Hannu was being polite to the old cow and generally friendly too, and not behaving like a brat. Many of the pages have an interesting layout too, this chapter seems to have a triangular theme on the layouts.

Speaking of layouts btw. JoB, in chapter 1 the building is a school, not the village school. The headmaster says “this is not my office, this is not even my school” when she snaps out of it. And yeah, I think it’s a part of the school building’s floor Hannu is left standing on in the transition to chapter 2. In the end of C2, there’s a piece of the barn wall next to them where they fall down.

Back to Chapter 2, plowing a field full of vipers was one of Lemmimkäinen’s ordeals in the Kalevala. I also like that about this chapter. And also the fact that apparently it really was the Viper of light (panel 2, page 71) that came for the snakes, and not a mass murder of beings sentient enough to have a religion.

[JoB]

Uhhh... I could not stop imagining Ville as a ferret. It's the legs! Snakes do not have legs, and yet snake-ville does? It's such an odd detail that makes me think of him as a dragon instead. And there's also the fur???

Took me a while to find this one again ...

... as you can see, Ville still has fur and his curly tail there. (Not Minnas first non-scaley dragon, though.)

As much as I did enjoy the interactions with the villagers, I really start to wonder why he knows everyone so well but also hates interacting with them.

"Everybody knows everyone else" is standard fare in small villages, whether you like anyone among them or not. Note that the roads out of it seem to have car tracks, but no (wider) bus tracks are to be seen, so getting out of it without having your own car might be nontrivial ...

This was a nice chapter. Hannu was being polite to the old cow

Spoiler: moderate one, for entire rest of comic • show

Murunen is quite the mystery, actually. IIRC she's the only nonhuman from the village to show up, and keep in mind that "here" is a place away from said village on the Birds' Path that the birds brought everyone to (with Puppy-Fox' dreams stopping them from continuing all the way to Tuonela). What does that say about her? Does she have a "human-like" soul? Host an actual human soul that got lost somehow (which would match quite well the absent-mindedness Murunen demonstrates)?

Back to Chapter 2, plowing a field full of vipers was one of Lemmimkäinen’s ordeals in the Kalevala. I also like that about this chapter. And also the fact that apparently it really was the Viper of light (panel 2, page 71) that came for the snakes, and not a mass murder of beings sentient enough to have a religion.

I'm not too sure how different that "Viper of Light" is from the very Mr. Viper hanging out with on Mr. Kuitunen, given his mode of travel. Some sort of avatars of the same entity, I'd say. I don't want to know how much help he would have offered if Hannu had actually killed all those Ukko-wormshippers ...

[Jitter]

JoB, I love dragon Ville

"Everybody knows everyone else" is standard fare in small villages, whether you like anyone among them or not. Note that the roads out of it seem to have car tracks, but no (wider) bus tracks are to be seen, so getting out of it without having your own car might be nontrivial ...

Spoiler: moderate one, for entire rest of comic • show

Murunen is quite the mystery, actually. IIRC she's the only nonhuman from the village to show up, and keep in mind that "here" is a place away from said village on the Birds' Path that the birds brought everyone to (with Puppy-Fox' dreams stopping them from continuing all the way to Tuonela). What does that say about her? Does she have a "human-like" soul? Host an actual human soul that got lost somehow (which would match quite well the absent-mindedness Murunen demonstrates)?

I'm not too sure how different that "Viper of Light" is from the very Mr. Viper hanging out with on Mr. Kuitunen, given his mode of travel. Some sort of avatars of the same entity, I'd say. I don't want to know how much help he would have offered if Hannu had actually killed all those Ukko-wormshippers ...

JoB, you are right about the small villages, although it doesn’t seem to be quite that small - the elderly Kuitunens say they have last met Hannu when he was little, so maybe closer to 20 years ago, or in any case at least 10. It is of course possible they are mistaken, as Hannu seems to know them a little better. Sill, they have a school with several teachers etc, so not quite a tiny village although definitely small enough for it to make sense that Hannu can quickly work out who the leader is in each case.

As for the Viper, you are probably right. The point however stands, I’m glad they weren’t killed The fact that Hannu didn’t hear their talk doesn’t help after he believes Ville about the fact that they do talk.

On JoB’s spoiler

Spoiler: show

Interesting observation! Maybe it is someone’s soul, maybe someone who had already become very forgetful with age?

(Although I hope the ailments of age get rectified at death or most souls would be utterly decrepit)

[JoB]

JoB, I love dragon Ville

(Me too. Became the vote bait in Feb-2013 (Warning: Gore in unrelated comic page above) and held the office for quite a while ...
FWIW, you might remember that we could ask for custom-made art as perks in the Indiegogo campaign to get the ARtD book printed. As it happens, I asked for a reptilian Ville, so I have it on good authority that the curly furry tail even persists in a pronouncedly scaley form.)

On JoB’s spoiler

Spoiler: show

Interesting observation! Maybe it is someone’s soul, maybe someone who had already become very forgetful with age?

(Although I hope the ailments of age get rectified at death or most souls would be utterly decrepit)

Spoiler: entirely offtopic now, but a tad sardonic • show

If our afterlife selves were proper replicas of our bodily and mental selves at the moment of death, they'd be dead, or at the very least there'd be a serious risk of getting a severely damaged one (Beetlejuice, anyone?).

Of course, it would be right ironic if those who die were to find out that extending our earthly lives by means of "modern" - by which I mean, pretty much since the dawn of civilization - medicine only leads to eternal afterlives with a restored body but most of the mental effects of old age persisting ...

"They really don't make 'em like they used to anymore, eh, Ugg?"
"Sure thing, Grah. That one over there can't even walk properly!"

(Standard complaint of natives after allowing a visiting researcher to accompany and observe them on a hunt for the first time since their discovery: "I've never seen a human who cannot even walk" (without scaring all the game away) ...)

[catbirds]

Woahhhh... lots of information here!

Jitter, it's cool that you mentioned the Kalevala because the first time I read it, I had no clue what the Kalevala was. There are probably way more references than easily compiled, though, so I hope one day I'll get a chance to read it and make some connections with anything else in the story.

Anyway, I'm also glad the snakes lived.

Spoiler: moderate one, for entire rest of comic • show

Murunen is quite the mystery, actually. IIRC she's the only nonhuman from the village to show up, and keep in mind that "here" is a place away from said village on the Birds' Path that the birds brought everyone to (with Puppy-Fox' dreams stopping them from continuing all the way to Tuonela). What does that say about her? Does she have a "human-like" soul? Host an actual human soul that got lost somehow (which would match quite well the absent-mindedness Murunen demonstrates)?

First things first, wow, that's such a cute dragon-Ville! I wonder what else I missed by totally ignoring the comments :0

Spoiler: rest of the comic i think • show

Well, there's actually another dog that Ville's jealous of in chapter 5. Astrid, actually. But considering that Ville is the only animal that talks, it could be that these other animals are just versions that exist in the conscience of villagers. Exceeept that might be a little bit unfair because why does Ville get to be the exception? But I guess the story wouldn't count for much in terms of narrative if it were just Hannu struggling to (find the motivation to) do tasks for 8 chapters.

And ummm... well, was there ever a reason as to why Hannu was the one who had to solve these problems? Was he chosen because Puppy-fox knew he was dying and so could afford for him to do it and then have him depart immediately after? I can't remember if there really was...

"Everybody knows everyone else" is standard fare in small villages, whether you like anyone among them or not. Note that the roads out of it seem to have car tracks, but no (wider) bus tracks are to be seen, so getting out of it without having your own car might be nontrivial ...

I had a rather different experience living in a small town (with only one school, of around 20-ish kids) but I'll chalk that up to small town culture being different in the one where I lived (more heavily tied to conformity, compared solely to what I see in aRTD). Ummm... well, there's also that most of my family didn't speak English. There are other towns where there are minority groups and they prefer it there, though.

JoB, you are right about the small villages, although it doesn’t seem to be quite that small - the elderly Kuitunens say they have last met Hannu when he was little, so maybe closer to 20 years ago, or in any case at least 10. It is of course possible they are mistaken, as Hannu seems to know them a little better. Sill, they have a school with several teachers etc, so not quite a tiny village although definitely small enough for it to make sense that Hannu can quickly work out who the leader is in each case.

Hmm... Well, we know that 1. the village was probably sprawling somewhat, with farms and probably a lake? So maybe it's a lot of people over a large area with the same gathering place, and 2. you could fit the entire village in one circle of picnic tables. Plus, maybe some people aren't in attendance. But does this also mean that this could've been avoided if only people weren't gathered?