Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[JacobThomsen]

The main thing I'm getting here is that Emil isn't very bright.

Or that troll-ghosts just have insanely high charisma stats

[Vafhudr]

Looking at his behaviour, I feel like he is being charmed/enchanted/hypnotized. His gaze/expression slackens considerably in the last few panels. 

[Sc0ut]

The main thing I'm getting here is that Emil isn't very bright.

Looking at his behaviour, I feel like he is being charmed/enchanted/hypnotized. His gaze/expression slackens considerably in the last few panels.

Well, one does not exclude the other... I think both are true 

[Róisín]

True, and I have a strong impression that Emil is very sensitive to other beings suffering, and his first impulse is to fix it. If this is his first experience of how the world looks to Lalli all the time, especially if the troll emanations do have some mesmerising effect, I can well see any training he has on the subject being overwhelmed in classical 'pity and terror'.

[wavewright62]

When the voices started playing in Tuuri's head, they also had a bit of a mesmerising effect on her, and while she managed to shake it off, she had to do so repeatedly.  In context of Emil's arc here, I'm guessing that Tuuri will have heard about this effect through family crosstalk (hence her use of 'the trapped ones' when talking to Lalli).  Poor Emil will likely have never heard of such a thing, to his detriment?

[Dilandu]

When the voices started playing in Tuuri's head, they also had a bit of a mesmerising effect on her, and while she managed to shake it off, she had to do so repeatedly.  In context of Emil's arc here, I'm guessing that Tuuri will have heard about this effect through family crosstalk (hence her use of 'the trapped ones' when talking to Lalli).  Poor Emil will likely have never heard of such a thing, to his detriment?

More likely, that Emil is actually care. Remember his contact with Cthulhund; Emil was overcomed by pity & compassion (and later scene with dead kittens...). While Lalli is generally self-centered (not counting family), Emil is actually a compassionate person, who could not just stand while someone suffer.

[Sc0ut]

Emil is compassionate, there is plenty of history indicating that, but it's also obvious by his expression that he is mind-controlled by the troll right now. Poor troll, wasting its efforts when Emil would have done the same thing anyway Though, without the troll's influence, Emil would pay more attention to Lalli's demands, so maybe the effort is not wasted after all.

[wavewright62]

Today's page (pg 848) has me queasy.  I look at that last panel, and I feel that a line has been crossed.  The calm, matter-of-fact statement that Lalli will torture Emil until he submits, and that barest hint of an ironic sigh or sardonic leer, chills me to the bone.

Spoiler: rant incoming • show

I get that Lalli's desperate to save them both.
I get that Lalli has incomplete training in magecraft.
I get that Lalli can be socially inept for whatever reason.
I get that Lalli is way out on a limb and doesn't know what else to do, and I applaud what I see as his thinking outside the box to find a solution.
That short-term victory is not at hand yet, even, and it can't be won by turning Emil into an automaton who has been beaten into submission.
Much was made on the last page about these first steps toward turning Lalli into a kade, and even now I don't think that is what's going on, because of the canon lore about envy being the core of the path of the kade.  I suppose you could squint and hold your tongue out funny and say Lalli is envious of Emil's cushy upbringing, but I don't see that, really.  It is no less a dark power, though, and the fact that Lalli has excoriated himself as the blood sacrifice for the torture does not render it any less sinister, quite the opposite.
The knowledge that you can make another submit to your will through torture (and there is no other word that fits what Lalli has been doing), is not something that is easily recovered from, for either party, even with all the support our world can provide.  These two do not have that support and any rapport they develop will be under the shadow of this submission.
If/when Lalli gets back to his own body and the language barrier comes back into play, the only communication they have that lasts is that experience of pain and mind-****.  The most Lalli-torturing fics the likes of Aliax and Dvergamhrar have ever written start to broach this territory, but now it's canon. 
It's right up there with the sinking of the refugee boat by the Icelandic government as a really dark moment, and far worse than Tuuri's suicide imho.  I think this goes beyond merely being an illustration of the harsh reality of a fictional post-apocalyptic society; this is a graphic illustration of the indelible personal corruption of two individuals.  And I'm on the record here, saying that I hate it.
I'm not outta here, I will still be there Monday to see what happens next (even though I doubt anyone would miss me within a few weeks of my departure).  The story I have been working on will take a back seat this weekend, in favour of work on a darker-toned one I had planned but not started.

[thorny]

wavewright, that might be where the story is going; but I'm not at all sure that Lalli's supposed to be showing either ironic sigh or sardonic leer. I took the expression just to be determination. And I really don't see what else he's supposed to do. He's either not capable of stopping Emil directly; or, if he is capable of actually taking over Emil's body, he thinks that would be even worse than what he's doing -- and I would agree with that.

[Hrollo]

A key difference with a "torture someone to make them submit" thing is that Lalli has to harm himself in the process. His dream avatar is bleeding on the sides of his head — for all the information we are given, it seems that in order to inflict pain on Emil, Lalli has to inflict even more pain on himself, and possibly put his own life in danger. I don't know if there's a real life situation this can actually be compared to, but it doesn't seem to be similar to "cold-blooded torture" — in fact since every blow inflicted on Emil is inflicted on Lalli as well, and possibly more strongly on Lalli, I'd argue this is the direct opposite. The act of torture is normally made possible by an empathetic disconnect between the executioner and the victim, that is, the executioner shields themself from feeling even a fraction of the victim's pain. This is not at all what Lalli is doing.

[Sc0ut]

On page 848: I have a hunch that Lalli is doing this to protect himself and Emil not just from death, but also a "fate worse than death". For finnish mages, it's important that dead souls find their way to their resting place. We don't know the rules for a safe journey. Do you always need to be guided by someone? Is a violent death more risky for the soul? Can the troll attack them in dreamspace, too, if both get knocked out? There's a lot of information we don't know, which might make Lalli's terror even greater than just fear of death.

On the other hand, I think what creeps people out (me included, a bit) is the lack of emotion with which he is talking to Emil. Magic-tasing him while being visibly upset that he has to do it would be one thing; but that's not what's happening. He looks colder than he's ever been. While I'm sure part of it is determination, would it kill him to to show the slightest hint of remorse?

On the third hand: Tuuri has been dead for what, two days? Lalli hasn't been himself lately, either. I'm pretty sure he's not used to riding around in people's heads and seeing through their eyes. It's possible that the lack of emotion (other than fear) simply indicates that his brain is mostly numbed out. He has plenty of reasons to be. Though even as I say this, I look at page 845 and the panel where he says "Emil" is probably the most expressive we've ever seen Lalli, it's such a mix of sadness, disappointment, a bit of compassion.

*big shrug*

I'm sure the next page will be very interesting, whatever it is, and hopefully clarify what's really going on with Lalli. I'm also rooting for infopages on brain cohabitation when this chapter ends.

[Róisín]

Sc0ut, I'm also very eager to see the next set of info pages. The 'Emil' panel was heartrending. Lalli doesn't look expressionless or cold to me, unless it's a frozen in terror expression. And yeah, I do think a fate worse than death is quite possible in this situation. I think the blank affect may be partly fear, partly that he is steeling himself to do something he knows will hurt terribly, and which he doesn't want to do. There may also be an element of 'hope this works' because it may not be something he has ever done. Shock, grief and exhaustion may also be part of it.

[JoB]

Spoiler: excerpt • show

The knowledge that you can make another submit to your will through torture (and there is no other word that fits what Lalli has been doing), is not something that is easily recovered from, for either party, even with all the support our world can provide.  These two do not have that support and any rapport they develop will be under the shadow of this submission.

Assuming that Minna will have her characters have realistic personalities, this scene should spell the end of Lalli and Emil ever having a relationship, because of the effect it would necessarily have on Emil. The part of our minds that experiences that drastic get engrained in - the part that makes people stand up and leave the room before they consciously noticed that That Other Guy™ just came in, or prevent them from falling asleep as long as they haven't gotten at least half a mile away from him, or make them refuse to ever be teamed up with him again for another expedition into the Silent World - is not one of the rational "alright, let's talk it out" ones.

[thorny]

I don't know. Different people react differently to the same sort of thing. Consider that some people live for years with, and often defend, even people who have done truly horrendous things to them with evil motives. And Lalli doesn't have evil motives. He's trying, desperately, to save Emil's life. It's also his own life he's trying to save, of course. But don't people ever forgive others who did horrible things to them while genuinely trying to help? Think of a parent physically forcing a child into a painful and invasive medical procedure that's essential for the child's long term health. Emil's not a child, of course, and Lalli's not his parent: but the trolls have Emil's mind, so Emil's not capable of making his own decisions.

This isn't purely a matter of Emil having compassion for the trolls. Compassion may have been their way into his mind: but they're now controlling him. If he can see them through the wall, he could shoot them through the wall; or, if his weapon's not up to that, through the windows (clearly visible in that building on page 842). It isn't compassion trying to make him go into the building, out of the sunlight, and into their reach. It's their hold on his mind.

[Sc0ut]

Assuming that Minna will have her characters have realistic personalities, this scene should spell the end of Lalli and Emil ever having a relationship, because of the effect it would necessarily have on Emil. The part of our minds that experiences that drastic get engrained in - the part that makes people stand up and leave the room before they consciously noticed that That Other Guy™ just came in, or prevent them from falling asleep as long as they haven't gotten at least half a mile away from him, or make them refuse to ever be teamed up with him again for another expedition into the Silent World - is not one of the rational "alright, let's talk it out" ones.

Since we're talking realistic personalities, I'll remind you that there are people who stay for decades in abusive relationships. The brain is complex, and instinctive avoidance of the person who hurt you is not the only possible reaction to trauma (as messed up as that is).
Course, as a shipper, that's not at all what I wanted for them

But that doesn't matter, since looking at the evidence we have so far, I'm pretty convinced Minna is not interested in exploring realistic psychology in this story so they will very likely find a way to work this out.