General Discussion Thread

[daItrick]

I HEARD SOMEONE MENTION THE GENDERS HELLO I'M HERE

- it's okay to not know who you are!! it's really hard to find out and you've got lots of time, so you can try out various things and find out what feels most like you. it's also a thing that can change over time, so something that feels very right now may not feel as right later, but it's always valid.

- a wiki can't tell you who you are, only you can. I mean things would be 1000x easier if there were someone other than you to confirm things, I know... but nobody other than you have the right to say who you truly are.

- It's possible you're a guy, it's possible you're a demiguy or only partly a guy, it's possible you're both a girl and a guy at the same time, it's possible you shift between being a girl and guy, it's possible you're none of the things.... it's possible to be ANYTHING. which ok makes it only more complicated, but then again hey more options

(demiguy means someone whose gender is partly a guy and partly something else, in case you were wondering)

- I see you've already found out you prefer he/him pronouns, which is a huge step on the way to finding out who you are? congrats! I mean it's okay to change pronouns to find out what feels more comfortable and more like home to you!!

I expected you somehow. lol
Well, I don't really think I'm a girl so maybe we can say I don't have the bigender thing? I dunno...
I already know that the wiki literally can't say what I am but I just wanted more information about this things to identify myself more better. And I was going to say I'm a demi-person because y'know, demisexual (that is conffirmed) demiguy? I don't think so.
About the pronouns, yeah he/him fits perfectly with me as I don't like she/her pronouns to myself. So, it's a huge step? Awesome! More near to find who I am //proud tears
Also, may I ask about your pronouns? It seems ze/hir is for non-binary but I don't understand it yet. If a non-binary is a person with no gender (if I remember), why is called like ''they''?

_{I love talking about this things hahah}

[RandomTexanReader]

I HEARD SOMEONE MENTION THE GENDERS HELLO I'M HERE

- it's okay to not know who you are!! it's really hard to find out and you've got lots of time, so you can try out various things and find out what feels most like you. it's also a thing that can change over time, so something that feels very right now may not feel as right later, but it's always valid.

- a wiki can't tell you who you are, only you can. I mean things would be 1000x easier if there were someone other than you to confirm things, I know... but nobody other than you have the right to say who you truly are.

- It's possible you're a guy, it's possible you're a demiguy or only partly a guy, it's possible you're both a girl and a guy at the same time, it's possible you shift between being a girl and guy, it's possible you're none of the things.... it's possible to be ANYTHING. which ok makes it only more complicated, but then again hey more options

(demiguy means someone whose gender is partly a guy and partly something else, in case you were wondering)

- I see you've already found out you prefer he/him pronouns, which is a huge step on the way to finding out who you are? congrats! I mean it's okay to change pronouns to find out what feels more comfortable and more like home to you!!

I don't really understand this. What makes a guy or girl a guy or girl if it's not biological sex? If I was born a girl but really like trucks/fighting/'guy' things, then does that make me a guy? That just seems really a stereotypical attitude to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept?

[Haiz]

ehh i'm the resident loud obnoxious genderweirdo of course I appear

I mean, if you're comfortable with he/him and thinking about yourself as a boy or a demiguy then that's probably what you are. If you ever think "I wish I was X", chances are you're X after all.

I don't really know how else to help you, but it often helps to search up the experiences of other trans guys or demiguys, and see if you relate to them. of course, you will never relate to all of the things they say, but something may resonnate with you.

Also, may I ask about your pronouns? It seems ze/hir is for non-binary but I don't understand it yet. If a non-binary is a person with no gender (if I remember), why is called like ''they''?

non-binary is the umbrella term for all genders that aren't strictly male or female. Me, I'm agender, it falls under non-binary by virtue of being no gender at all, but non-binary also includes demiguy, demigirl, genderfluid, bigender, et cetera.

Non-binary people can use she/her or he/him pronouns if they feel like it! Singular they/them is so far the only official gender-neutral pronoun in the english language, as far as I know.
ze/hir/hirself and variations thereof are another set of gender-neutral pronouns that have been used for decades.
There are a great many different and 'new' pronouns out there, since not everyone feels like using they/them or even ze/hir. I actually had ey/em/eir/emself as my preferred pronouns for a while (they've been used for decades, too), but after joining the forum I thought they may be a little too alien and weird for non-native english speakers, and I realized I kinda like the sound of ze/hir. Buuuuuuut ze/hir are still pretty weird for a lot of people, so I use they/them too, in case it's easier to use.

long story short I'm being annoying with my dumb pronouns and I'm sorry

I don't really understand this. What makes a guy or girl a guy or girl if it's not biological sex? If I was born a girl but really like trucks/fighting/'guy' things, then does that make me a guy? That just seems really a stereotypical attitude to me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the concept?

A guy is a guy if he identifies as a guy, and a girl is a girl is she identifies as one. the concept of biological sex is wonky enough as is, because it's nowhere as black and white as many people make it out to be - for example, intersex people exist.

If you were born a girl and never had any problems being a girl or never felt like you wanted to be something else than a girl, you're probably a girl! nothing wrong with girls doing guy things.

I think the stereotypical attitudes and activities don't really have anything to do with it, but it is how a lot of people find out they don't really fit with the gender assigned to them? so I don't really know. A lot of people also feel like their bodies are being wrong, some people just feel like the pronouns used for them are wrong, and.. yeah. I don't really understand what exactly a gender is supposed to feel like??

me, I didn't really mind 'being' a girl, but being a genderless person sounded so much, much more appealing. and when I started to think about myself that way, everything started to make a lot more sense. and then more things happened and here i am

[RandomTexanReader]

A guy is a guy if he identifies as a guy, and a girl is a girl is she identifies as one. the concept of biological sex is wonky enough as is, because it's nowhere as black and white as many people make it out to be - for example, intersex people exist.

If you were born a girl and never had any problems being a girl or never felt like you wanted to be something else than a girl, you're probably a girl! nothing wrong with girls doing guy things.

I think the stereotypical attitudes and activities don't really have anything to do with it, but it is how a lot of people find out they don't really fit with the gender assigned to them? so I don't really know. A lot of people also feel like their bodies are being wrong, some people just feel like the pronouns used for them are wrong, and.. yeah. I don't really understand what exactly a gender is supposed to feel like??

me, I didn't really mind 'being' a girl, but being a genderless person sounded so much, much more appealing. and when I started to think about myself that way, everything started to make a lot more sense. and then more things happened and here i am

I'm still confused. Intersex people do obviously exist, but if anything, aren't they the exception that proves the rule? When hormones 'misfire' during fetal development? Otherwise you've either got XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes encrypted in your DNA, something which every single cell in your body carries. Biological sex looks to me to be the most black-and-white thing a person can experience, short of alive or dead. And if gender is not based on biological sex, then what defines a guy or girl? If it's not biological, and it's not societal norms (if a guy can do girl things and vice-versa) then what is it? If I say, 'I'm an Oglorp' it doesn't do us much good if we don't have a dictionary with a definition of 'Oglorp.'

[Haiz]

I'm still confused. Intersex people do obviously exist, but if anything, aren't they the exception that proves the rule? When hormones 'misfire' during fetal development? Otherwise you've either got XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes encrypted in your DNA, something which every single cell in your body carries. Biological sex looks to me to be the most black-and-white thing a person can experience, short of alive or dead. And if gender is not based on biological sex, then what defines a guy or girl? If it's not biological, and it's not societal norms (if a guy can do girl things and vice-versa) then what is it? If I say, 'I'm an Oglorp' it doesn't do us much good if we don't have a dictionary with a definition of 'Oglorp.'

Iiii'm not awake enough nor do I have all the necessary knowledge at hand for a long and proper responce to this, BUT: biological sex is in fact way more complicated than that. people have actually four chromosomes or something if I'm not mistaken, which means that there ae girls with a hidden Y chromosome?? and then there are hormone levels that may vary a lot, and uh everything is actually a spectrum. there are a lot of sources and scientific stuff about this out there. if i was any less lazy I'd link you to some things but I don't have the capacity for that right now i'm sorry


gender =/= sex, and uh then there's the entire thing of gender actually being a social construct. even my art history book acknowledges this:


Dictionaries have been wrong many times before (and they have been written by straight white men for a long time), different cultures have different definitions for what defines a gender and what is expected of the different genders, transgender (and non-binary!) people have existed in a lot of cultures for a very long time.
The reason we have such strict gender roles and a strict gender binary is actually because of colonialism and capitalism. which is also something I should source to but can't right now, again, sorry.

also there are a lot of trans people out there in general, they can't all be wrong.

basically, if gender isn't based on your body and not on societal norms, what is it? that's the story of how I realized i was agender because I couldn't make sense of it either.


OH and hello here's a video that's relevant

edit: i may or may not be going to bed very soon so if i suddenly stop replying it's because im too drained to handle this conversation properly. it's a very complicated topic and i dont want to mess up again!

[daItrick]

I'm learning a lot with the mess I just did oh lord thank you.

[Fimbulvarg]

The reason we have such strict gender roles and a strict gender binary is actually because of colonialism and capitalism. which is also something I should source to but can't right now, again, sorry.

Not buying that argument, gender binaries and patriarchal systems precede the advent of capitalism and colonialism by millenia.

[Haiz]

Not buying that argument, gender binaries and patriarchal systems precede the advent of capitalism and colonialism by millenia.

yeah that is true, but a lot of it in our society right now is enforced by those things?? because there were a lot of gender expectations that were less strict before. like that entire thing about girls having to shave off all their bodyhair, that was because of razor companies wanting a bigger market, wasn't it? i could be wrong about this

bleh yeah i can't really do this discussion right now at all, i just make a lot of oversimplified statements that may be really inaccurate and stuff i'm sorry

[ParanormalAndroid]

I think the cause of a defined gender binary right now is probably less important for Red than advice on how to work out what to do with it, but eh..
Red, just be who you feel comfortable with being. Sure, so you were born with XX chromosomes. Strictly biologically, you're female.
But if you feel more like a man (ie: transgender), then you could live life as a man if you so choose.
It all depends on your approach, really. Just work out who you'd like to be, and go from there.
(I might be talking absolute bollocks here, but I mean well)

[Fimbulvarg]

yeah that is true, but a lot of it in our society right now is enforced by those things?? because there were a lot of gender expectations that were less strict before. like that entire thing about girls having to shave off all their bodyhair, that was because of razor companies wanting a bigger market, wasn't it? i could be wrong about this

bleh yeah i can't really do this discussion right now at all, i just make a lot of oversimplified statements that may be really inaccurate and stuff i'm sorry

That's a question of perspective. Is being expected to shave one's legs more strict than having to run a farm and rear all the children because the men are all expected to devote themselves to warfare? Because that is a way of life in many tribes still living in a pre-industrial society.

[Haiz]

That's a question of perspective. Is being expected to shave one's legs more strict than having to run a farm and rear all the children because the men are all expected to devote themselves to warfare? Because that is a way of life in many tribes still living in a pre-industrial society.

it really is a perspective thing though, because shaving legs is completely and utterly unnecessary, whereas farm-running and child-rearing is a thing that has to be done, for, you'know, survival reasons. even if I don't agree with the gender distribution and stuff. or warfare.


*gently shakes self* haiz. haaaaizzzz don't do this to yourself. u know your ocd goes haywire when discussions happen. gently step outside of conversation. stop doing words. go to bed before you hurt yourself

[ParanormalAndroid]

I'm just going to ignore that debate because I don't have enough knowledge to partake..
Is that picture taken from Gunshow?

[Haiz]

I'm just going to ignore that debate because I don't have enough knowledge to partake..
Is that picture taken from Gunshow?

i have no idea i just saw it as a reaction to the statement "cells multiply by dividing" and it went straight to my reactions folder

[Sunflower]

I think the cause of a defined gender binary right now is probably less important for Red than advice on how to work out what to do with it, but eh..
Red, just be who you feel comfortable with being. Sure, so you were born with XX chromosomes. Strictly biologically, you're female.
But if you feel more like a man (ie: transgender), then you could live life as a man if you so choose.
It all depends on your approach, really. Just work out who you'd like to be, and go from there.
(... I mean well)

Thanks, Paranormal -- that's a very constructive comment and reminds me what the real issue is: feelings an actual member of our community is struggling with.

I was about to jump into Someone On the Internet Is Wrong!! mode, and you reminded me not to.  So thanks.

people have actually four chromosomes or something if I'm not mistaken, which means that there are girls with a hidden Y chromosome?? and then there are hormone levels that may vary a lot, and uh everything is actually a spectrum. there are a lot of sources and scientific stuff about this out there.

I will say, though, that unless Haiz has more up-to-date research than Wikipedia (which is entirely possible), human chromosomes don't work precisely the way she said.  The vast majority of us are born with 46 chromosomes, two of which are the ones that determine physical gender (either XX or XY). 

Any change in the number or makeup of chromosomes generally results in health problems, and sex chromosomes aren't exempt.  The effects range from very mild/nearly unnoticeable (e.g. triple-X syndrome) and XYY to serious. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders

Keep in mind that chromosomes are just the beginning.  As Haiz says, biological sex is complicated, and an awful lot of other factors (biological, psychological, social, and more) layer on top of the simple XX vs. XY scheme to determine how we actually feel and experience gender (which obviously we do in a million different ways).

[Haiz]

I will say, though, that unless Haiz has more up-to-date research than Wikipedia (which is entirely possible), human chromosomes don't work precisely the way ze* said.

nah i'm not, never ever trust anything i say blindly and without research. thanks sunny

Spoiler: tmi statement • show

just gonna throw it out there that even if I did keep identifying as a girl, my body would not match up with what people expect of a girl body anyway. so i'm not completely rambling, you know.

also good night friends. good luck red cloud on your ~*Journey of Self Discovery*~