Author Topic: General Discussion Thread  (Read 2387547 times)

urbicande

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15300 on: May 01, 2016, 02:41:59 PM »
Yeah!! exactly!!! the thing about art history is that people have always tried to define art, to decide what is good art, and there is always someone who shows up and is like "you know what, no" and then there are ripples and there are waves and there is a tsunami of change, and i love how useless subjectivity is against the force of sheer art, i love how everyone is an artist in their own right i just really love art ok

It's like music. For a long time, I've believed that there are two, possibly three genres of music.  There's "Stuff I Like" and "Stuff I Don't Like"  -- the third possible genre is "Stuff I Haven't Heard Yet"
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15301 on: May 01, 2016, 03:04:07 PM »
It's like music. For a long time, I've believed that there are two, possibly three genres of music.  There's "Stuff I Like" and "Stuff I Don't Like"  -- the third possible genre is "Stuff I Haven't Heard Yet"
So, in yet another attempt to miscommunicate my intent, what I find annoying is when people think the third genre doesn't exist, and, more specifically, the attitude that anything older than a certain age is beneath contempt or beyond consideration simply because of its age. Possibly it was not what the people meant in this instance and I simply took it the wrong way.
in my humble subjective opinion, both "X is the best actor" and "clearly Y and Z are better" are subjective opinions.
Personally, I try not to make declarative statements like "X is the best", or "Y and Z are clearly better", this case being the rare exception, which I am currently decidedly repining. [Note to self: never post in this thread again.]
in my humble subjective opinion, both "X is the best actor" and "clearly Y and Z are better" are subjective opinions. to the current generation, saying X is the best is just a way of conveying a great love for something, without stating a catch-all Truth. saying X is the best, doesn't mean Y or Z are not the best either, all of them can be the best in some way, for someone. someone saying their girlfriend is the best person in the world doesn't have to be an ignorant statement, even if the person hasn't known the Great Girlfriends Masters of the Past.

I think people showing excitement and love about something is a beautiful thing, and if we had to constantly second-guess such statements we would never dare to think anything is great because we can NEVER know the past and how it compares to the present for sure!!


I was about to jump in to say the same thing. From my experience being in "this generation," saying "so-&-so is the best something-or-other" is a way of saying "they're good and I like them a lot," not an end all be all definitive statement. I'm familiar with several actors on the list, but I wouldn't go touting any of them as "the best actor," because I'm not specifically a fan of any of them - for example. I mean, I would say "so-&-so is a really good actor," but I'd reserve using "best" for my favorites.

(And not to bring SSSS into it, but how many of us have said "Minna Sundberg is the best artist" or "SSSS is the best comic"? I have, and speaking as an art student who studies comics - neither of those are objectively true.)
So, "best" is becoming like "literally"?

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15302 on: May 01, 2016, 03:14:29 PM »
So, in yet another attempt to miscommunicate my intent, what I find annoying is when people think the third genre doesn't exist, and, more specifically, the attitude that anything older than a certain age is beneath contempt or beyond consideration simply because of its age. Possibly it was not what the people meant in this instance and I simply took it the wrong way.

Butting in for a moment to just address the part I bolded - this!! This drives me CRAZY. I mainly encounter it when it comes to black and white films. I like a lot of older films, including stuff from the silent era, and I've had people (mostly my parents!) tell me that, for example, Metropolis is not worth sitting through because a silent film can't possibly be any good compared to what we have today, or that La Grande Illusion is clearly not worth watching simply because it was made in 1937. What.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15303 on: May 01, 2016, 03:18:14 PM »
So, in yet another attempt to miscommunicate my intent, what I find annoying is when people think the third genre doesn't exist, and, more specifically, the attitude that anything older than a certain age is beneath contempt or beyond consideration simply because of its age. Possibly it was not what the people meant in this instance and I simply took it the wrong way.

Oh, heh. Perhaps that's where we misunderstood each other. See, I often have the exact opposite problem, that I get sick of people lamenting that the quality of art is in some state of perpetual decline and that nothing new is even worth looking at because it's just not the same as the "Good Old Stuff." And I'm saying this as someone who enjoys plenty of older movies (even if I don't recognize most of the actors) and older music and I love Rod Serling's Twilight Zone to pieces, and I don't think too much of people who'll turn their nose up at something for no better reason than it's black and white... any more than I respect people who think that CGI automatically = bad, or claim that metal is nothing but mindless screaming, without ever having bothered to try actually listening to it.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15304 on: May 01, 2016, 03:20:12 PM »
[Note to self: never post in this thread again.]
maybe not make sweeping statements about the ignorance of an entire generation in a topic designed for discussion ^______________^

(nobody was trying to miscommunicate your intent btw, just spinning along about an interesting philosphical topic O:)


So, "best" is becoming like "literally"?
what can i say, hyperboles literally are the best
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15305 on: May 01, 2016, 03:20:47 PM »
Oh, heh. Perhaps that's where we misunderstood each other. See, I often have the exact opposite problem, that I get sick of people lamenting that the quality of art is in some state of perpetual decline and that nothing new is even worth looking at because it's just not the same as the "Good Old Stuff." And I'm saying this as someone who enjoys plenty of older movies (even if I don't recognize most of the actors) and older music and I love Rod Serling's Twilight Zone to pieces, and I don't think too much of people who'll turn their nose up at something for no better reason than it's black and white... any more than I respect people who think that CGI automatically = bad, or claim that metal is nothing but mindless screaming, without ever having bothered to try actually listening to it.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15306 on: May 01, 2016, 03:23:01 PM »
and I've had people (mostly my parents!) tell me that, for example, Metropolis is not worth sitting through because a silent film can't possibly be any good compared to what we have today
*Sighs* I find some silent film better than what we have today. (But it's possibly just me liking the fact actors were able to make us feel emotions without words or special-music-saying-hey-there-are-violins-so-it's-sad.) Yes, I love Metropolis.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15307 on: May 01, 2016, 04:17:31 PM »
I used to be offended by that kind of blanket rejection of this or that genre of film/music/etc but then I realised: there are dozens of thousands of movies. Even if you watched one film a day, every day, for your entire life, you would not make a dent in the total list. So basically you have to make choice, and it will be arbitrary, because liking stuff is arbitrary. You will miss things, but no matter what you do you're missing things — every seconds spent doing something is a second lost forever that could have been spent on literally anything else.

So eh, it's not dramatic, it's just movies. If someone doesn't want to share with your tastes, then find some other people, that's not like there's a shortage of those — or enjoy the things all by yourself, that's perfectly valid too.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15308 on: May 01, 2016, 06:14:24 PM »
Leaping in to provide some possibly stupid two cents, but, I think in most cases the people perceived as masters of their particular craft are the ones who pioneered a technique which would go on to 'revolutionise' their craft or industry at large. For example, Alfred Hitchcock is perceived as a master for his filming techniques. I personally love 'Rear Window' for the way he filmed it all from one room and really communicated the idea of voyeurism.

On the other hand, we don't get many people touting, say, J.J. Abrams as a genius, even though he's the one who made camera flares a thing that people now apparently do in their film direction. But it's hard to find a person with at least basic knowledge of art history who does not think Da Vinci really knew what he was doing, and we have probably framed him as a genius because he was among the first to draw comprehensive anatomical stuff in the Renaissance. He was among the first to know what the human body realistically looked like, and among the first to use that in his serious works. Also, the fact that a lot of his work was closely recorded and observed by his society means that we can track a lot of what he did and make our judgements as to his skill from there.

The point I'm trying to make? I don't know if there is one, but I guess I just think that some people are heralded as super-ultra-masters of their generations for doing the right things with the right skill at the right time. They get caught under the umbrella of 'genius' while other people who have done the same do not.
Someone mentioned Jackson Pollock a while back? One of the first action painters, encouraged a movement, but not everyone necessarily thinks he's an awesome dude. It's hard to know what will qualify as a genius, when the work is contemporary or the work has become historical.

I guess societies just pick what they like at the time and describe it with superlatives?
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15309 on: May 01, 2016, 08:01:49 PM »
The thing with art and music is that the appreciation of both is a mix of subjective and objective. When I look at art or listen to music, several questions arise.
What is the maker trying to do? What are they communicating?  Do I understand what they are saying? Are they saying anything? Does it matter? (And yes, I have known 'artists' who were like 'yeah, abstracts with lots of cobalt blue are selling well this season, fits the decorating trends, I'll paint that. Next year it might be kittens on black velvet.' Also artists who spend months getting the curve of a fallen leaf right.

Are they using craft or skill to express what they are saying? Are they breaking rules to make a point, or did they not bother to learn the rules in the first place? Are there rules for what they are doing, or is it a new idea? Are they just shouting random words and calling it poetry, or vomiting on the canvas and calling it art? If they think it's art, then is it? Has someone made art by accident while trying to do something else? (If you've never heard of the Ern Malley/Angry Penguins controversy, look it up and be greatly entertained.)

Is it beautiful? Note that I didn't say 'pretty', it's not the same thing at all. It's possible to create beauty from the most unlikely material and subjects. Look at Rodin's 'La Belle qui fut Heaulmière' and have your heart broken. Or read the Villon poem that inspired Rodin. Look at cave paintings. New Guinea penis carvings. Kid's kindergarten paintings. They all touch us for different reasons, and in different ways.

Do I understand it? Not necessarily intellectually understand. I have a clay Shela-na-gigue that an Irish friend made for me, and a fernwood carving of the goddess messily giving birth which was given to me in New Guinea by the old woman who carved it, and a virgin-and-child painted icon given to me by a christian friend, and to me all those works of different art say the same thing.

Ok, most important question: does it answer me? Do I listen to it/watch it/read it/look at it and think 'yes, that!'? Does it express some idea well enough to make me understand it/believe it/get it for the first time? Does it show me something new, or explain something I knew but couldn't express? If so, for me, that makes it high art rather than decoration. Not that the two are mutually exclusive.
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And films and actors, yeah. Different periods of time and styles of film-making affect what is expected from the actors. A lot of what we see as hammy overacting in early films is because those were stage actors still getting used to a new medium, and they were still emoting hard enough to make it obvious to the audience at the back of the hall. Fashions in acting come and go. But there will always be actors who can communicate across any barrier. And playing just one character with variations (think John Wayne Paul Hogan or Johnny Depp) doesn't necessarily make a bad actor, just one with a limited range.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15310 on: May 02, 2016, 04:49:31 AM »
Leaping in to provide some possibly stupid two cents, but, I think in most cases the people perceived as masters of their particular craft are the ones who pioneered a technique which would go on to 'revolutionise' their craft or industry at large.

The point I'm trying to make? I don't know if there is one, but I guess I just think that some people are heralded as super-ultra-masters of their generations for doing the right things with the right skill at the right time. They get caught under the umbrella of 'genius' while other people who have done the same do not.
Yes, definitely!!

I mean, art in itself is not really a competition to begin with. but if we look at for example, rhetoric in ancient greece and rome, that was considered an art/craft and it was a competition of sort. And a lot of the great rhetoricians and orators who we consider the masters from that time (for example Cicero and Demosthenes), did 'lose' in the end, and died for it. so their speeches weren't good enough to save them, but were even so preserved above others as a tool of teaching for future generations.

obviously actors this recent aren't as clouded by the fade of time as two thousand years of all kinds of art history, but we're really getting the cherry pick here. and also, there are not only the masters we have lost, but the masters we could have had, if they had had the opportunity to hone their skill - like women, who couldn't get into the art academies. and on that topic, there were a lot of great female painters, too - but they are never quite as well known as the male artists, and well. there are several reasons for that, but not "women just weren't as talented as men".
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15312 on: May 02, 2016, 02:42:20 PM »
And there's the idea that even within a bad, boring, stupid, ugly, etc, book, play, movie, painting, sculpture, there can be a moment of pure genius that will transcend everything else and carry one away.
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Ok, most important question: does it (speak to me ?) answer me? Do I listen to it/watch it/read it/look at it and think 'yes, that!'? Does it express some idea well enough to make me understand it/believe it/get it for the first time? Does it show me something new, or explain something I knew but couldn't express?
I've been going to the symphony for ~30 yrs. Needless to say I've heard a lot pieces more that once. But it's always amazing to hear the "same old thing" under the baton of a different conductor just come alive and be almost transcendent.
Art is where you find it.

But ya gotta include Dustin Hoffman in that list ;)
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15313 on: May 02, 2016, 07:15:39 PM »
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #15314 on: May 02, 2016, 09:09:39 PM »
Dustin Hoffman of course. And Bruce Dern. And Laurence Olivier.
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