Author Topic: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread  (Read 19740 times)

Róisín

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2016, 04:14:31 AM »
Ooh, 'Thor's Wedding'! I tell that one at Mediaeval Fairs, mostly to the little kids who think it hysterical and run about afterward playing at being frost giants fleeing the wrath of Thor. I usually pair it with the Irish story 'Munachar and Manachar', which is a bit like the American 'Hole in the Bucket', but with interesting sound effects. Both are great fun for children.

The spiritual things sound a lot like some of the old lore that turns up in the Northumbria/Borders/Danelaw part of England, and interestingly enough, in Friesland. Many old cultures have the concept of the complex, many-part soul. The single uniform soul, individual and good for one life only, seems to be very much an innovation of the desert religions.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 04:58:19 PM by Róisín »
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2016, 02:13:28 PM »
Pfft more like he had to wear a wedding dress, fighting the giant was totally voluntary and I don't think he minded that part at all (especially since said giant had just tried to kiss him). :D

Fascinating read! I knew about each of these parts before but what I didn't know was that they were considered parts of soul that create one whole one. It's a topic I'm very interested in, would you have some reading recommendations on the Norse idea of soul? Just to make the Finnish soul idea clear, Finns did not see the three parts as three parts of one soul, they were three separate souls.

I'll be very curious to see how Minna works the mythology into the creation of trolls, ghosts and the like, and I also wonder if trolls are always the same in each country. Beast dogs had regional differences according to the belief systems of their surroundings, might trolls not also take some "cultural prompting" in a similar way? Ghosts too, possibly, which would be a good explanation to why Lalli who no doubt has seen spirits before failed to realize they could be dangerous. Likewise what Reynir said earlier on makes me suspect the ghosts at least have regional variation: "Those ghosts didn't really look like any of the spirits we've got at home. They seemed kinda unhappy, don't you think?"

Yah that's true :D Lawl.

TBH, I can't answer whether or not they thought like that, or if their world view was more similar to the Finnish. That sort of nuance is likely lost to history. I can certainly direct you to reading done by contemporary practitioners who have their own very interesting takes on it, but it might not be as historically authentic as we might wish it was. I'll include some interesting reading for you, though.

Personally, I don't think there is a really clear, defined answer. Sure, we have the ideas of the Likamr, the Hamr and all the other parts... but there is also Yggdrasil and the Nine Wolds to consider as a metaphor for the soul. These are just my own musings but, the meaning of the word Yggdrasil is literally "Horse of Odin". Some people like to think it is a kenning for "gallows" because stories and runes and stuff, but since Odin is old norse for "soul/spirit", I like to think that it is a kenning for the body, because if the body isn't the horse of the spirit, I don't know what is. That would definitely be a hint that the soul is a "whole", represented by the world tree. There's also the metaphor of the woven fabric as a symbol for the interconnections of thing, and the slaying of a single giant and the crafting of the world from his body. (There's actually a very interesting metaphysical theory regarding Ymir, by the way, that might be of some interest to this topic:
/>
The Kalevala doesn't really have that sense of constant interconnection. Granted I haven't read the whole thing, but you've got stuff like a species of animal being created from different parts (like the cat, who have the claws of a viper and the head of a hare). There are no such "parts" in the creation of Ask and Embla, even the world is created from one single whole. I don't know for sure, but I just get the vibe that it might've been a point where the Norse (or at least the parts of the old Norse that were preserved in the Sagas) differed a lot from the Finnish. Besides (and keep in mind I'm saying this as a Swedish person.. lol, I'm so sorry) it just seem very.. stereotypically Finnish to have three different souls xD they're a lot more.. stubbornly individualistic as a people, I guess...

So I guess, my point is that I don't think there is any solid support for either being the "one true reality", but I think there is some support for the different parts being the great one. Or, at least, there's the trinity of gifts given by the Gods at the creation myth that I would call a 'whole', at least for the duration of a persons life, and the other stuff may or may not revolve around that like the different parts of an atom.

Anyway, reading (keep in mind that some of these books are from the 90's and might be a bit outdated by now:
Concepts of the Soul in Norwegian Tradition by Bente G. Alver
Investigating the Afterlife Concepts of the Norse Heathen by Bill Linzie
Scandinavian Folk Belief and Magic by Kvideland and Sehmsdorf

On the topic of the Fylgja:
http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=14 (this lady has some really interesting work, if you haven't checked it out yet. Her books are ridiculously expensive so I haven't bought any yet, but she's the same person as in that Ymir video and have a free blog and Youtube channel.)

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2016, 05:32:02 PM »
I've just caught up reading this whole thread, and hearts in my eyes at all of you, what a treasure of info!

(and one of my classes may be reading Þrymskviða soon, I am incredibly excited although also scared as my language skills may not be up to verse)
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2016, 08:59:43 AM »
(and one of my classes may be reading Þrymskviða soon, I am incredibly excited although also scared as my language skills may not be up to verse)

Don't worry too much, Þrymskviða is short enough to figure out (aside of the kennings) and it's a lot of fun to read. :D

Hm, I feel like blabbering about something topic-related today but I can't think of any specific thing to write about... I'm taking prompts if there's anything specific someone would like to read about!
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Róisín

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2016, 09:25:16 AM »
Would you care to talk about kennings? I was trying to explain the concept to our local writers group last week and was met with total incomprehension. We had been talking about metaphor and simile in the writing of poetry, both ones we had read and ones we made up on the spot, and I was trying to explain kennings as extended metaphors with a touch of riddle thrown in. Some of them are both very beautiful and very hard to work out. Puzzling over them is one of the pleasures of that style of poetry.

My understanding was that as well as being play and display of skill for the poet, a kenning served a similar purpose to a Zen koan, causing a moment of enlightenment in the hearer, an 'of course!' moment.
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Laufey

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2016, 10:56:14 AM »
Kennings, or circumlocutions, are fun indeed! You're quite correct about their function: first of all they're a way for the poet to flex his or her poetic muscle, show off their knowledge in mythology and to give the reader a moment of understanding, especially when it comes to the complicated ones. Without a good knowledge on Nordic mythology there's no way of understanding a large amount of them, and even with the ones that are more straight-forward you'll have to brain a bit to figure out the logic behind them. Not to mention some were era-specific in ways that nowadays make originally easy kennings almost impossible to understand without explanations.

It's thanks to kennings that we have Snorri's Edda by the way. Himself being a Christian his motive was not to just jot down the old beliefs for fun, but to list enough information for future poets to come that they'd be able to keep up the art that at Snorri's time was already fast on its way of dying out. Iceland was almost the only place left where people still knew how to create certain types of poetry, which made Icelanders quite popular in courts outside of Iceland. A young man capable of konungsdrápa, a type of poem meant for praising a certain king, could easily find themselves employed by a king abroad.

Mythology based kennings


These are the very kennings Snorri wanted to preserve. The aforementioned Þrymskviða would f.ex. have a person called Jarðar bur, son of Earth. To understand who that is the reader/listener has to know that Jörð is a goddess who had the god Þór with Óðinn, thus Jarðar bur = Þór/Thor. This is a very common type of a kenning by the way, referring to a character via their parent; Laufeyjar sonur (= Laufey's son) also gets a mention in Þrymskviða and it doesn't take long to figure out that that's Loki. Mythology-based kennings can also include pointing to better-known actions from mythology, such as Baldur's bane = mistletoe; the only thing that could harm Baldur was mistletoe and in the end he was killed by an arrow made of it.

Kennings could be made out of lesser-known parts as well, as long as the listeners could make a connection between the kenning and its meaning. One way was to use something that was already in the poem itself - alsnotra ambátt (= wise slavegirl) from Þrymskviða is also Loki, who basically jumped at the chance of dressing up in drag just to follow Thor to Þrym's place. This kenning would not be understandable outside of this particular poem though, unless you first referred to Þrymskviða enough for the listener to figure out which slavegirl that would be.

Simple kennings

I chose to call these simple, but by that I mean the kenning only includes ONE kenning - there's some that are crazy long! These simple ones can be easy-ish to understand, such as wave's horse = ship, or spears' crash = battle. Goddess of rings is another common one and simply means a lady, typically the composer's own wife. Then there are harder ones: war leek/onion (= sword) is my own personal favourite. :D Or war-gull, which means raven. Actually any bird coupled with the word 'war' means a raven since they were a common sight on battlefields for obvious reasons... likewise raven's food = warrior, and raven's wine = blood. Simple kennings can be strung together, a technique used especially if the first one can mean several things: "the possessor of the fallen slain and the owner of Sessrúmnir" is actually two kennings after each other. The first part is not clear enough on its own, since Óðinn and Freyja both possess fallen warriors. The second one pinpoints the person as Freyja, Sessrúmnir is her hall after all.

Double/triple/so forth kennings

This is a different type than just several simple kennings strung after each other in that the extra ones are built into one big circumlocution. There's no limit to how many kennings one circumlocution can include, and it's these ones that really challenge the audience. Hawk's land's fire = golden arm ring, but how? To begin opening the kenning you'd first have to know that hunting with hawks was a popular sport for the nobles in Medieval times, and since hunting hawks perch on your arm a hawk's land/cliff/mountain means an arm. Fire can mean gold when used in a kenning, and it works here because the listener has already made the connection that hawk's land means an arm, so what's the fire attached to it? Jewellery, naturally. Some are taken to be so obvious that they can be used to mean something quite different than what they sound like: "destroyer of hawk's land's fire" = "destroyer of arm rings" = a very generous person... because giving away your arm rings was a very generous act.

Modern use

Kennings never went away in Iceland, and people understand many without even having to figure out the basics. "Óðs manns æði" means total insanity, or literally translated Óð's man's frenzy. Óð here is Óðinn himself and the madness described stems from the fact that Óðinn worshippers were considered the craziest on the battlefield, looking to die in a spectacular manner in hopes of convincing Óðinn to take them to Valhalla. Likewise the song "Hættu að gráta hringaná" (= don't cry, hringaná) that was written to comfort a poor servant girl who had to have her toes amputated because of frostbite and was crying over the loss. There's a hidden kenning in hringaná: it's shortened from "hringa Gná" (= Gná of rings), in which form it suddenly becomes a very typical kenning that means simply "a lady". The composer was even clever enough to use the name Gná, a goddess who serves Frigga by running her errands, to make the connection to the servant girl obvious.

So in short kennings are a kind of a game between the poet and his/her audience where poet makes a riddle and the listeners try to figure it out, only they have very, very little time for guessing so the kennings have to be just the right level of difficulty. Make too simple ones and no one's impressed, make too difficult ones and no one gets what you mean. But to create one that opens up to your listeners in a moment of "HAH, WOW!" is when you've truly succeeded in making one.

EDITing to add: I have no idea how I managed to ignore pointing this out, but kennings are often vital for creating poetry that fits certain traditional Icelandic metres that rely on alliteration, such as f.ex. rímur.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 11:13:24 AM by Laufey »
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Laufey

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2016, 07:03:51 AM »
Today's page with Onni attacking the ghostpile is an endless source of inspiration for me. Birds are massively important in the Finnish tradition since they link to everything from the creation of the world (the world is made of the egg of a water bird) to origin of humanity (swan is one of the original mothers of humanity along with the bear and the moose) to everyday life and habits and naturally, death as well.

Eagle Owl

The name of eagle owl in Finnish is huuhkaja or hyypiö, depending on the area and era; nowadays it's mostly called huuhkaja. Both words can be used as derogatory ones, usually to describe a person set in their own ways, stubborn, weird, grumpy and solitary. Although originally a holy bird, huuhkaja became a feared sign of death after Christianity took over, since it was believed to be a saattajalintu (= a guiding bird), one of those that would come over when someone was about to die to guide them safely to the next world. The function of the bird is therefore a positive one as one of humanity's caretakers but as people began to see it as a bad sign they were almost hunted to extinction at one point. The swan met similar fate, going from the holiest bird that was absolutely taboo to kill to hunted down to only 15 nesting pairs at worst.

It's considered unlucky to both hear the sound of an eagle owl and especially to see one, but as I've lived a large part of my life near them I can't really confirm this. The one that lived in a tree above our mail box didn't seem to call in any trouble although as a child I was a bit afraid of it, it was HUGE. Besides that our summer cottage is deep in the woods of Ruovesi and eagle owls just are a staple there, you really can't avoid hearing them a lot. For more eagle owl encounters, when my grandfather died an eagle owl moved to one of the trees at our summer cottage and stayed there the whole summer. The place was built by grandpa and was probably his favourite place in the world, and it may be he declined the owl's offer and stayed there instead. Funny things do happen at the place.

I've always thought it a little funny that owls in general have such contradictory stereotypes in Finland: on one hand they're considered wise shamans and knowledgeable beyond this world, yet calling someone an owl means you're calling them stupid. I have no idea how this works.



The Finnish national football team is called Huuhkajat because of a little incident that happened in a game against Belgium... :D
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2016, 10:23:48 PM »
a person set in their own ways, stubborn, weird, grumpy and solitary

Doesn't sound like Onni at all does it?  ;D
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2016, 05:11:10 PM »
somewhat relevant to this thread, I drew a Lempo O:



here are the things I was told was associated with this finnish god/dess:
- fire
- androgynous
- red or reddish hair
- bread (important!!!!)
- dragon
- love
- blades
- shooting star

so of course I tried to put ALL of these things in the art somehow. (the round hole thing is bread)
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2016, 05:52:14 PM »


This is an amazing Lempo and one of the best portraits of this god/dess I've ever seen! Bread is important.

Background info on Lempo: originally a god/dess of fire and love, most likely once a really important deity since there are still places named after Lempo, and the church thought Lempo threatening enough to make the name synonymous to devil (a bit like what happened with Perkele) or just generic evilness. Regardless, the original Lempo is a benevolent deity who gives people warmth, light, bread and blades. Lempo's gender varies a bit according to area, although a female Lempo seems to be more common. According to some stories Lempo may easily agree to give you what you ask for but only if you're sincere about your wishes.
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Róisín

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2016, 06:13:14 PM »
Your Lempo sounds very like our Brigid or Bride, before she got christianised into Saint Bridget. Only the pretty forms got taken up by the church though - she was a triple goddess, and the crone aspect became thought of as evil rather than symbolic of wisdom. Most of the christian female saints are maiden or mother aspects. The symbolism is somewhat retained - light, fire, protection; cattle, women, children, smithcraft, learning, poetry. But she used also to be the patron of cats and mages, which has sort of dropped from the modern image!
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »
Your Lempo sounds very like our Brigid or Bride, before she got christianised into Saint Bridget. Only the pretty forms got taken up by the church though - she was a triple goddess, and the crone aspect became thought of as evil rather than symbolic of wisdom. Most of the christian female saints are maiden or mother aspects. The symbolism is somewhat retained - light, fire, protection; cattle, women, children, smithcraft, learning, poetry. But she used also to be the patron of cats and mages, which has sort of dropped from the modern image!

Fun fact: areas that have Lempo-related names often have a connection to St. Bridget. One good example could be the church of Holy Bridget in the town of Lempäälä, built in the 1500's.
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Laufey

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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2016, 05:49:33 PM »
Since there's been quite a lot of discussion on kade lately I thought to put together a small kade introduction!

Kade

First things first - anyone could be a kade. There's even a saying that the whole land is full of witches and kade, which refers to people generally having an ill will towards each other. Kade translates roughly as "envious" or "jealous", a person who feels so powerfully negative about lacking something that this negativity itself twists them into a kade and makes their every act an act of malice. A kade could steal all the happiness from a house, or according to another saying "envy can empty a whole lake of fish"; a sudden turn of bad luck or loss of reputation for someone/s who hitherto had been enjoying good fortune was usually explained as work of a kade.

Kade didn't even have to do much, although occasionally they were said to use magic against people. Usually a mere glance at your direction could give you bad luck (which is why newborn children were kept hidden until their first tooth grew = until they had gained themselves a luonto-soul). Not every kade was this dangerous however, a normal person turning kade could not cause much damage simply because their power level was not high enough. A dangerous kade would either be a talented witch, or a person who enjoyed a powerful position in society. Occasionally a lifetime of bitterness and envy could also grow a dangerously strong kade.

Kade could for example make the cows stop giving milk, turn good luck to bad, cause accidents or sudden damage to property (without being present in the actual calamity), cause arguments, turn best friends or even happy, married couples against each other, send nightmares and creatures called "night-cry" that make newborn babies cry all night long and so forth. Kade could also spread illness, boils and rash...

In the old Finnish calendar the last Thursday of each month is "day of kade", a day when anything you try goes wrong and everything you start ends up badly. In comparison the 8th and 9th day of each month are good luck days, and if you have to start a project that'll take a while to finish, it's always best to start it in the beginning of the month and especially on the 8th and 9th days.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 06:05:45 PM by Laufey »
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2016, 09:29:42 PM »
Since there's been quite a lot of discussion on kade lately I thought to put together a small kade introduction!
...

This thread's been so interesting to read!!! Thanks for hosting all the info and discussion, Laufey :D !
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Re: Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2016, 12:17:09 AM »
Well, since we already covered Lempo, I wonder if it'd be possible for someone more knowledgeable to make a little list and descriptions on the deities of finnish Mythology.

Personally I only recall the following:

Ukko
- The chief deity. God of weather (Especially thunder) and the sky.

Akka
- Ukko's wife. I am not entirely certain on her roles.

Tapio
-God of the forests.

Äkräs
- A fertility deity. Might also have had a connection to beer?

Ilmatar
- Name would imply relation to the air/sky. In kalevala, a creator deity and Väinämöinen's mother.

Ahti
- God of water/lakes/seas/rivers/etc.

Vellamo
- Ahti's wife, goddess of the above.

Tuoni
- God of death. (I've mostly read of Tuoni as a male god, being the death. Not death's daughter. But I may well be incorrect.)

Loviatar
- Daughter of Tuoni. Mother of the Nine diseases; Colic, pleurisy, Fever, Ulcer, Plague, Consumption, Gout, Sterility and Cancer. The ninth one, worst of all was un-named. But implied to be envy. (Yes, I got the list of the diseases from wikipedia. I cannot remember them out the top of my head.  :-[)

Lempo
- Already covered

Kuutar
- Name implies connection to the moon. Learned of her from SSSS so, I know nothing more.


Possible deities?

- Väinämöinen
-- Hero of Kalevala. Depictions are rather... conflicting as some sources would imply him a god, others not.

- Ilmarinen
-- Same as Väinämöinen. Some of his feats, like forging the very deck of heaven would imply some divinity.

- Iku-Turso
-- Sea monster. Some sources claim it to be a God of War. I have no idea myself.




I most certainly missed a lot and am likely wrong on many accounts. So, please could someone more knowledgeable clarify, correct and fill in on this?
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