Laufey's Sagas and Kalevala Thread

[Laufey]

Celtic and Australian magic are more familiar to me than Finnish, but if I were constructing this it would have more cycling back on itself and building in gradual increments. I'd be looking for the same 'feel' as a bird riding an updraft or a potter building a cup out of a spiral of clay.

That's an interesting way of putting it! I would describe it somewhat similarly, as a spiral, and each line one step along the way. Finnish spells rely on repetition a lot: first of all the second line often just rewords the first line or brings something more to it, and each line may even be sung twice. After that each stanza might be repeated as well. This song would be a good example of it (and even includes the first cantation of a luonto-spell at the end):

By the way, there's a mistranslation in the video: "syntini" is an old word and does not mean "my sin", it means "my origin/birth form". The line should therefore go "Rise, my nature, from the earth, my birth form from the deep waters".

And if I were doing it I'd build in more limitations. Call me an overcautious old fuddy-duddy, but limitations are good if one wants to survive one's working. If whoever wrote it down transcribed a verbal-tradition spell they may simply have left out what they thought of as unneccesary repetition, but those slightly-varied repetitions are as needful as the many courses of bricks in a wall.

Same here. Mine's about five times this long to get everything included, and that's all just preparation for the real thing. After the spell is done is when you're supposed to actually start with whatever you needed the extra power for, the luonto-spell is merely a way the witch uses to prepare themselves for exceptionally taxing or difficult work. As for what kind of a luonto it envokes... any kind you have, basically, although a snake would not be an unusual luonto form.

All the text on the bookmark does sound like the real thing though. There are some lines in it that are identical to a few I know, and the form is right. I'd say it's definitely a luonto spell, just not a complete one.

[Róisín]

Those Finnish luonto-spells sound a lot like the ones we'd use to evoke power from one's name, or from the symbol or patron animal or creature of one's family or clan. The Celtic analogues use not so much repetition as increasing levels of clarification, description or definition - usually with a lot of synonyms and adjectives.

 The marngit here have a similar thing that calls power from the songlines, but they start from the concept that the people belong to the land rather than the other way about, and think of the land as the actual primary lifeforce or being (Vocabulary again, why are there so few English words for these concepts?). Anyway, for them, the land and the songlines just are, and the people are extensions of them that go about and do things. So when people need to do something that requires a lot of spiritual power, they call on the land as on their own soul. The thing of subsequent lines of a spell being rewordings or repetitions of the original statement is something they do too.

[Laufey]

The marngit here have a similar thing that calls power from the songlines, but they start from the concept that the people belong to the land rather than the other way about, and think of the land as the actual primary lifeforce or being

This sounds similar too, but Finns don't think anything belongs to anything but itself. The earth has earth "powers" or "owner spirits", water similarly has its own powers (which is why you should be quiet on lakes and especially not curse near or on any large body of water; getting angry or frightened near a lake is also dangerous because the powers of water may take offence at that). It doesn't even stop there but goes into smaller segments: a forest has its owners, but each tree and animal type likewise has its own. Humanity is no exception, it's just another people that lives among the other people and has its own owner spirits just like everything else. What you want to do is to keep a good balance and everything in its own place.

[Róisín]

Like an ecology.

[Mélusine]

*Takes notes from a corner*

[Laufey]

Since the comic is now dealing with the topic of ghosts I thought it fun to write a little about the Finnish idea of soul and what causes someone to become a ghost. Looots of text in the cut.

Spoiler: show

A human was not thought of as having only one soul but three: henki (= breath), itse (= self) and haltija/luonto (= owner). Of these henki is the first soul a child gets and the only one it has while it's in the womb. Having only this soul does not make a human, it simply means that the shell which will host a human is functioning, breathing, blood is circulating, that kind of stuff. Children often died in infancy, and those of them that were not fully human could not pass as regular humans would but would instead collect to form a creature called Liekkiö (Liekkiö are very complicated creatures and there's an endless repertoire of explanations on what they are, but this is the one I learned). These were described to be either invisible or form some kind of a small sphere of light, and were neither benevolent nor evil. Some stories are about them helping lost children find their way home from a forest, some stories say they try to lure people to drown in swamps. There are also some where the Liekkiö simply plays tricks on people apparently to amuse itself by f.ex. echoing back everything you say to it.

The second soul is a person's self, like the name suggests. This one began to grow at birth and is generally speaking a part of your own ancestry, reincarnation of a former person in the family but in a very broad sense. Remember that scene where Lalli cleaned the dog's skull? It was very much like the bear ritual where the bear's soul is sent to its home to re-join the origin of bear, which is basically all bear-ness. A huge bear-spirit thing. All living things have similar origin humans included, and this origin is where the itse-soul comes from... also imagine that the human-origin is split into sections, each human familyline comes from one of them and the humans belonging to that section return to it after death. Itse-souls stay in the family.

A child that had began to grow an itse-soul might also turn into a ghost, especially if it had met a violent end and had been buried in secret. It would then become an ihtiriekko/itse-riekko and cry and scream until it had been found and given a proper burial.

A dead person sometimes stays in this world in the form of their itse-soul for other reasons as well. Usually they want to see something completed, they may worry for their family or home, they may want to hang around for a multitude of reasons. Some stay because they feel a strong bond to a place and eventually fade into the origin of that thing, becoming a spirit. Some house elves of Finnish lore are originally the person who built the house, died but wanted to stay in the building instead of going back: little by little they'd forget their human life and become a protective spirit of the house instead.

In general people were believed to have a set death-day, and if they died before that their itse would not die, it would stay around until the proper death day. The exception would be if the death was somehow really traumatizing, because then the soul would be tied to this world and unable to move on - these types were the most dangerous because they wanted revenge and often didn't care who they heaped it on. Some would specifically look for young women in hopes of being reborn as their child, in which case the child would turn out to be a total monster as it grew up. Some would attack people and cause all kinds of trouble until either someone would f.ex. overpower them, help them by sending them on their way, help the ghost find the retribution it sought, or enough time would pass and the ghosts would eventually forget why they were still in this world and fade away.

The third soul is called haltija, or luonto. Lalli's lynx is therefore not a spirit animal but his own soul, the third one of them that defines the strength of your spirit and your luck in life. Children got this one as they grew their first tooth, at which they had passed the most dangerous part of childhood and could be shown to people outside of the family (up until this moment babies were kept hidden).

Souls could be lost as well. Someone who'd lose their first soul, henki, would simply die because the two others would not be able to keep the body going. If one lost their luonto the result would be unusual tiredness, lack of luck, loss of wealth and possibly becoming severely ill. Losing one's itse would make the whole world dead and dull to the person, as if everything else had lost its meaning. Being an active part of society would be impossible because itse is what ties you to humanity, and the person would likely suffer loss of imagination, inspiration and hope. For luonto to come back you'll just have to rest and wait and hope for the best, but itse would not return to you without help and often required the assistance of a shaman/mage/witch who'd go look for it in the underworld (sometimes a luonto might be sought for the same way, itse and luonto overlap here and there because Finnish tradition is confusing as all heck). Losing both luonto and itse could also happen, but the person would be pretty much comatose from there on, having only the basic vital functions and nothing more.

Based on this the reason why Lalli simply labeled the ghosts as "weird" could be because he has so many options to choose from, and if the ghosts didn't attack him right away he had no reason to assume they would be the dangerous kind. After all, sometimes ghosts can just be "weird spirits", all depends on why they're still tied to this world and whether it's by personal choice or not.

[Yuuago]

Since the comic is now dealing with the topic of ghosts I thought it fun to write a little about the Finnish idea of soul and what causes someone to become a ghost. Looots of text in the cut.

This was fascinating, thank you. *_* And also very useful for... reasons... /hides draft behind back

This part particularly interests me-

if they died before that their itse would not die, it would stay around until the proper death day. The exception would be if the death was somehow really traumatizing, because then the soul would be tied to this world and unable to move on - these types were the most dangerous because they wanted revenge and often didn't care who they heaped it on.(...) Some would attack people and cause all kinds of trouble until either someone would f.ex. overpower them, help them by sending them on their way, help the ghost find the retribution it sought, or enough time would pass and the ghosts would eventually forget why they were still in this world and fade away.

Question. In the case of violent death, are itse-ghosts always dangerous, or is merely Very Very Frightening a possibility? Especially if enough time has passed that revenge is no longer attainable (for example, due to the murderer being deceased) but not enough time has passed for the ghost to simply fade out. Basically - no longer malicious, but still terrifying. In need of help to pass on, but unable to get it.

[Mélusine]

Laufey, do you realize I will take notes once again ? *Takes the good notebook for that* Thank you !

Edit after having took the time to read all properly : this is fascinating and a little part of me is wondering if I could use some concepts for a recent idea... An other part is saying "Find a book on this subject, buy it and read all".

[Laufey]

Question. In the case of violent death, are itse-ghosts always dangerous, or is merely Very Very Frightening a possibility? Especially if enough time has passed that revenge is no longer attainable (for example, due to the murderer being deceased) but not enough time has passed for the ghost to simply fade out. Basically - no longer malicious, but still terrifying. In need of help to pass on, but unable to get it.

There are no absolutes here, the ghost will be just as dangerous as it wants to be. However, it's a very likely possibility and no, they don't just forget about their grudge in a mere lifetime of their murderer. They can stay active for hundreds of years, depending, and sometimes the danger levels do go down with time so that a lethally dangerous ghost becomes merely a violent ghost, then a terrifying one that no longer can attack humans physically and eventually fades out and is forgotten.

Though they want it, they don't always need to get revenge either, sometimes just finding out what happened to them and making it public knowledge is what they need to find their way out. Sometimes they're simply lost and stuck, and then they need human help for moving on. When it's about itse-soul a lot depends on humans connecting with each other because itse is literally that part of you that is your common, shared humanity with the others.

Laufey, do you realize I will take notes once again ? *Takes the good notebook for that* Thank you !

Edit after having took the time to read all properly : this is fascinating and a little part of me is wondering if I could use some concepts for a recent idea... An other part is saying "Find a book on this subject, buy it and read all".

Hahah glad if I've managed to inspire you! You can have quite free hands with this subject because it's vague in many ways. Different areas in Finland have different beliefs, stories, the lore adapts to its surroundings so to speak. Only the basics tend to stay the same.

[Yuuago]

There are no absolutes here, the ghost will be just as dangerous as it wants to be. (...) and sometimes the danger levels do go down with time so that a lethally dangerous ghost becomes merely a violent ghost, then a terrifying one that no longer can attack humans physically and eventually fades out and is forgotten.

Though they want it, they don't always need to get revenge either (...) Sometimes they're simply lost and stuck, and then they need human help for moving on. When it's about itse-soul a lot depends on humans connecting with each other because itse is literally that part of you that is your common, shared humanity with the others.

* Yuuago rubs hands together

Excellent, this suits very well for my purposes, then. How lucky that it fits so well by sheer accident. *_* (And of course many notes will be taken once I'm in such space to do it)

[Róisín]

Laufey, that was very clearly explained, thank you. It accords quite closely with what I have heard on the subject from other sources. I had wondered how closely my sources agreed with tradition, since the few other old storytellers I've talked to about the subject are either Finns several generations removed from their country or Estonians of Finnish descent, now living here in Australia.

I find the overlap with some Celtic and English traditions interesting, particularly in respect to customs around babies and naming. In Somerset, for instance, the spirit of an unbaptised, or in older traditions, unnamed or unacknowledged child was called a 'spunky'. They too could be singular or a 'clump' of spirits, and manifested as a wandering globe of light, which could be mischievous and playful, neutral, helpful, particularly to distressed women and children, or occasionally malicious, setting out to terrify or lead people astray. The Somerset and Northumbrian ones, for some reason, seemed to have a particular 'set' against men who had been drinking alcohol, and a drunkard who went near the spunky's area at night was taking a real risk, and might very well end up smeared with pig manure or led into a bog pit. A spunky would often haunt a particular area, either where it had died, or where it was buried. The road beside a churchyard wall was a common site.

They were sometimes also vengeful if they had been killed or neglected to death, and could haunt persistently enough to drive their killer mad. This theme turns up often in the ballads. 'The Rose and the Linden' has the theme of a minister's daughter who gets unsuitably pregnant and kills her newborn twins and buries them in the forest. The boys then proceed to haunt her, with different versions of the ballad giving her fates ranging from madness to damnation to redemption.

The remedy for a spunky was to give the child sympathy and a proper burial. If the body could not be found, or it was a ghost from long ago, asking the landspirits to care for it and making an offering of bread and milk was the common usage. Later versions mention that one should 'give it a criss-cross', that is, mark it with the sign of the cross, which would exorcise the spirit.

I think I've mentioned before that a friend down in the suburbs of Adelaide has a property with an old tree in the backyard which was a Kaurna sacred site. The tree is an old river redgum which is on the site where a group of Kaurna people, back in the early days of white settlement, died in an epidemic. That happened a lot, back then, as new diseases followed the settlers. Anyway, the tribe may have congregated there because it was a sacred site, being a mighty tree even back then, and the bodies were buried around the tree. Nowadays the spirits of the children are still there. If one sits in the backyard at night they can be heard chattering and giggling and running around. Every so often they get a bit cheeky, and do things like tripping or poking people, oversetting the washing basket, and chasing the cats. At that point the local marngit will turn up to sing them back to sleep for awhile. Don't know how that will go when someone else inherits the house, but my friend is pretty calm about it, the kids seem to like her.

Nobody wants to exorcise them, that would be cruel. But I suspect they haven't gone back into the general tribal pool of souls because none of their direct line are left. Don't know whether they will eventually merge into a surviving family line of their broader tribe, of which some are still left, or fade into the land. But I hope nobody ever cuts the tree - it's on the Significant Tree Register, so hopefully will be okay for awhile.

[Purple Wyrm]

Losing one's itse would make the whole world dead and dull to the person, as if everything else had lost its meaning. Being an active part of society would be impossible because itse is what ties you to humanity, and the person would likely suffer loss of imagination, inspiration and hope.

I can't help but wonder if that part of the belief system was influenced by encounters with clinical depression. It's almost a textbook definition!

(Goes looking for a shaman to recover my itse...)

[Laufey]

Róisín: as always, the similarities are interesting! A Liekkiö is definitely a forest creature though, no really found outside of forests at all... but then again in the old times getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy often happened in the cover of forest anyway and when newborns were left to perish that would also happen in the forest. Liekkiö didn't seem to have a grudge against anyone, though sometimes it's said they like children better than grownups.

There is however a malicious child ghost in the Icelandic lore that specifically has a start in a newborn left exposed to elements! It's called an útburður, literally "outside-carried". They could be really vengeful and some would haunt not only their mother but her whole familyline for generations to come, until every last member of it had either died or gone mad and the line ended. A very popular story tells of a woman who had given birth in secret, wrapped the child in rags and left it to die. Later on she was milking sheep with another servant woman and mentioned how she didn't have clothes for the oncoming dances. At this something in the sheep pen sang at her:

"My mother in the sheep pen
Don't worry
I shall lend you my rags
To dance in"

I don't think there's any way of getting rid of either, Liekkiö or an útburður: the first one might start behaving if you try to make it say the name of Christ but that's a newer addition to the lore. The latter - well, it's best to stay out of its way, that's pretty much the only thing you can do about most Icelandic monsters.

I can't help but wonder if that part of the belief system was influenced by encounters with clinical depression. It's almost a textbook definition!

Considering how sadly common depression is in Finland it might very well have something to do with it...

[Fauna]

We have three entire pages of Saga vs Kalevala stuff, and no one mentioned the story where Thor had to fight a giant while wearing a wedding dress? 

Ah well. Laufey, thanks for the interesting read on Finnish spirits. Lots of parallels to the Norse soul view here. We should really start a topic solely dedicated to magic stuff at some point, I always love reading what you guys have to share on the subject. But since this is a topic connected to SSSS and ghosts/trolls, I might as well bring up the Norse view of the soul for those who wish to compare.

Spoiler: show

It is a pretty debated subject among historians and scholars, and one where a lot of history has been lost, so forgive me if I've missed the latest research on the subject. Don't take my word as a gospel of truth. But the basic idea is very similar to the Finnish one, and the soul is made up of several "parts" or "energies". There is the Likamr, which is simply the physical matter, the body. When one dies and the other parts of the soul leaves, the Likamr is simply the corpse. Then there is the Hamr, which is ones physical appearance. Note that the Hamr is different from the physical body. The Fylgja, which translates as "follower" is a spirit that often appeared as an animal and can, roughly speaking, be compared to the Finnish idea of the Luonto, but it has clear parallels also to the Hamingja and is associated with a persons inherited luck. Maegen/Hamingja, roughly described as the inherited might or luck of an individual, passed down the family line. They're different concepts, but similar enough for an English audience. The Wyrd, a persons amassed past actions that shapes the person, a little bit like Karma actually, also described as ones life thread. There is Önd, the breath, and the final life force given to a baby upon birth. The Hugr and Munr, the will/intent of a person and the memory of a person. There is also the Wod, the "divine madness". So, that's a lot of parts. Lets go onto explaining them.


The Likamr (also known as the Lich) is pretty much covered. The physical body. The Hamr is where it gets interesting. Hamr translates roughly as "home", and is the boundaries that makes a spirit an individual and keeps it all together. It is the reason why a ghost, or someone who travels outside of their body, might look like a person even though they've left the physical stuff behind. A powerful mage can change their Hamr, like an astral traveler who borrows an animal form. But it could also be the physical appearance of a person, hence how truly powerful mages could be physical shapeshifters.

The word "Fylgja" can refer to different things, but in this topic it refers to an animal spirit that was an individuals mirror image, guardian, or counterpart. The word means "Follower", and a child received their Fylgja when they were nine days old, at the same day that naming ceremonies were traditionally held. A person often share personality characteristics with their fylgja, a sly and cunning person could have a fox fylgja, while a ferret fylgja might follow an overly excited and very hyper individual. Some sources claim they are the opposite gender of their human, others that it was always female.

The wyrd.. well, the wyrd (or the Urdr) is a little bit like a persons Karma, or fate. The weight of your actions, the past that you always carry with you. There is an idea that there is a great weave of fates, a fabric, and a Wyrd is like a persons individual thread, which we will spin and weave through actions. Think of a spindle; you have un-spun wool in one end, you give the spindle a twirl, and end up with a thread around the other end. Based on how you do it, you could end up with thick thread that might be great for knitting socks but bad for other purposes; you might end up with a thin and delicate thread that will make for great embroidery material, but it will make for lousy socks. Or, if you're not paying attention, you could end up with some pretty sloppy thread that isn't the best for anything really. But the thread can never be undone. Whatever your actions were, however you spun the thread, it is there forever, and will affect you. The idea is that like attracts like; so if you are a thief, you will likely attract other thieves into your life. If you are an honorary person, you will meet with other honorary people. Although the wyrd can never be changed, a bad one can be "canceled out" by taking better actions in the future and fixing your mistakes. This means that the old Norse did not believe in luck as a random force; rather, a person with good luck had a respectable Wyrd and Örlog, they accumulated their good luck through their lifetime.
Some scholars claim that the Wyrd begins at the childs ninth night of living, the same night it receives its Fylgja. It is then that it counts as a complete human being, soul-wise.

The Hamingja was the accumulated "luck" or wyrd/örlog of a family line. This is like the collective version of multiple peoples wyrd, that a child inherit from their ancestors. Hence (or at least, this is my personal interpretation of it) why it is very common to see children inherit their parents/family's character flaws, like alcoholism, or an angry disposition, or whatever have you; they inherit their parents Hamingja, and will pass it down the line until the unresovled issue with the Wyrd is resolved through right action. BUT it could also be a good thing, and a person can inherit great luck from their relatives. The Hamingja can be received at the same time as the Fylgja and when a child is accepted into the family through the naming ceremony, or whenever an older relative dies and pass their Hamingja on to the person of their choice. One saga tells of an adult man who had a dream of a huge giantess taking up residence in his home, which he interpreted as the death of ones of his relatives, and his large amount of luck now passing down to him, so it is not limited to children at all.

The Önd, the breath, given to a child at birth. Connects the Likamr to the outside world.

And lastly we have the Wod (the Hugr and Munr, thought/intent and memory, explain themselves if you ask me). Think of this as... hmm.. everything in the mind which is not rational thought. A baby doesn't have rational thought yet, but they have Wod. Creativity, spirituality and such things are connected with Wod.

If one want to have a more 'simplified' soul overview, I would limit the most basic parts to the ones mentioned in the human creation myth, where Oden give breath and spirit (önd), Hönir gave common sense and thought (could be the Hugr and Munr, and/or the Wod), and Lodr gave blood and color (the Hamr). Those might be considered the 'essence' of a human soul. The other parts are definitely of great importance to the life of a human as we know it, but perhaps they are not the very *essence* of a soul complex.

My own little SSSS-related hypothesis is that the Rash disease is simply a weakening of the Likamr-Hamr relationship, and/or a slow dissolving of the Hamr in general but without the occurrence of true death. In trolls, this result in gross mutations of the Likamr, as the body lose its "spiritual blueprint" so to speak. The Hamr is definitely still (more or less) intact in the ghosts the crew encountered, they still look human enough even after 90 years. But they're creepy as crap, and the Hamr is definitely screwed with, if one wants to see it from a Norse perspective.

[Laufey]

We have three entire pages of Saga vs Kalevala stuff, and no one mentioned the story where Thor had to fight a giant while wearing a wedding dress? 

Pfft more like he had to wear a wedding dress, fighting the giant was totally voluntary and I don't think he minded that part at all (especially since said giant had just tried to kiss him).

Fascinating read! I knew about each of these parts before but what I didn't know was that they were considered parts of soul that create one whole one. It's a topic I'm very interested in, would you have some reading recommendations on the Norse idea of soul? Just to make the Finnish soul idea clear, Finns did not see the three parts as three parts of one soul, they were three separate souls.

I'll be very curious to see how Minna works the mythology into the creation of trolls, ghosts and the like, and I also wonder if trolls are always the same in each country. Beast dogs had regional differences according to the belief systems of their surroundings, might trolls not also take some "cultural prompting" in a similar way? Ghosts too, possibly, which would be a good explanation to why Lalli who no doubt has seen spirits before failed to realize they could be dangerous. Likewise what Reynir said earlier on makes me suspect the ghosts at least have regional variation: "Those ghosts didn't really look like any of the spirits we've got at home. They seemed kinda unhappy, don't you think?"