The SSSS Scriptorium

[Maglor]

I didn’t expect there to be a russian-speaking SSSS-community.

Wait, there is?

[thegreyarea]

Wait, there is?

I wasn't aware there were so many SSSS-related works in Russian on Archive of Our Own. Unfortunately (for non-Russian speakers) several of them aren't translated to English. But at least we can appreciate the art.

Anyway it's nice to see that Minna's art is reaching more people.

[LooNEY_DAC]

I didn’t expect there to be a russian-speaking SSSS-community.

Wait, there is?

Yep.

[Róisín]

Grey, you certainly have it right that experience at writing builds your skill. The way I heard it was ‘the way to become a writer is to write’. I had never written fanfic before joining this community, indeed I had never even encountered the concept, despite decades being around F&SF fandoms.

I had written a lot, but most of it was reports, technical and other factual articles, with the odd newspaper article, and I had helped several friends with editing and proofreading their own books, and had contributed parts when I had some experience with the subject they were covering. Most of the non-factual things I had ever had published were poetry and an occasional hard-SF short story. So I was quite unprepared to find myself putting up online fanfic for a fantasy webcomic! I think one reason it worked was the quality of the base material!

The other kind of experience that helps with writing is life experience. I have had plenty of that, but it doesn’t have to be big exciting stuff. You can extrapolate from ordinary life experiences as well. I have heard that one phrased as ‘everything is grist to the writer’s mill’ and I find that a true saying.

[JoB]

Also, being trapped inside a dark crate on a ship, rocking all the time, for days (?) surely wasn't a relaxing experience...

Reynir hopped into that crate when the shipmates selected them to hand to the expedition team, which happened after Trond blackmailed the captain into it, and then he told the crew in the still-ongoing radio contact where to meet up with them. It isn't said out loud how much time the ship took to get there, but Trond was looking through the papers to find a nearby one, so I'd guess it all happened the next morning.

I love the clarity of Math, where something is, or not, with few grey areas

*cough* Gödel's theorems, P =? NP, Continuum Hypothesis, ...

I didn’t expect there to be a russian-speaking SSSS-community.

Wait, there is?

The Russian fan translation was active before this forum's translation project even started (and never got to get anything translated) ...

[thegreyarea]

... so I'd guess it all happened the next morning.

Yes, maybe hours, not days. Anyway a very uncomfortable experience, I'm sure.

*cough* Gödel's theorems, P =? NP, Continuum Hypothesis, ...

Well pointed! In my defense I did said there were a few grey areas. But the vast majority of Math users* won't dive in those deep waters**, staying on the upper layers were results are clear and the paths to solve problems are more or less evident. I believe that's what Groupoid intended to reference.
* Myself included.
** Fascinating as they may be.

[Groupoid]

I love the clarity of Math, where something is, or not, with few grey areas Life is not like that, and a story is a description of life, even if it's an imaginary life on a fictional world. Usually there are no straight paths, rather a network of roads, avenues and trails that we negotiate the best we can, never being able to see, much less explore, all the possibilities.

I'm by no means an experienced writer, but to me having a good idea on how the story will end is essential. Without it I'm lost.
I also draw a "road map" with the relevant "places" where the story should pass, but my map is like the medieval ones: Everything is out of proportion, legends fill the empty spaces and there are imaginary places that I never find.

Anyway all writers (AFAIK) tend to agree that experience is fundamental. The more you write the better you do it.
So let's do it!

Yes to all the things! Especially the first paragraph. Your maps sound pretty fun, I might try that method of planning.

*cough* Gödel's theorems, P =? NP, Continuum Hypothesis, ...

I don’t think of Gödel’s incompleteness theorems as something fundamentally fuzzy. Because if something is unprovable (in some system!) then the fact "the something is unprovable in that system" may still be provable in some other system. It reminds me more of the things we can’t calculate or the things we can’t construct (in finite time). An example is Goodstein’s theorem, which is unprovable in Peano Arithmetic, but provable in others. It has nice visualisation/application with Hydras (this video explains stuff a little & might be interesting, but I haven’t watched it fully).
And although math is pretty "clear" and "simple" in some sense – only rarely you have to juggle ten concepts at the same time – this doesn’t imply for me, that all questions have to be answered already. There will probably always remain interesting open problems.
So I only consider your mentioning of the continuum hypothesis to be something of a grey area. It differs a lot in tone from the others, since the question now (after having proved its independence of ZFC) is: "do you want the continuum hypothesis or not in your set theory?". And there are many "questions" like that (large cardinals, axiom of choice, intuitionistic logic, alternative foundations, ...), which aren’t questions about a thing, but a choice with what you want to work with. It *might* just happen, that these things interest me.

[JoB]

(Off-Thread-Topic alert ...)

I don’t think of Gödel’s incompleteness theorems as something fundamentally fuzzy. Because if something is unprovable (in some system!) then the fact "the something is unprovable in that system" may still be provable in some other system.

Gödel's work pinpoints that a) there is such an undecidable statement in every moderately advanced mathematical model, hence b) an infinite number of (truly different) models to choose from, and thus c) need for an infinite number of experiments (read: cannot be done) to pinpoint the proper model for an application case. If that doesn't make the relation between reality and math(ematical modeling) "fuzzy", I don't know what would.

Spoiler: personal rambling • show

Yes, I'm calling the statement "undecidable" on purpose. The standard way of extending the model beyond that point is to add either the statement or its negation, or a known equivalent of either, as a new axiom, which is not "finding a proof" and thus making it "provable" in my books.

And yes, I'm aware that there used to be near-holy wars about whether the "grey area" is a uniform mass of "undecidable" statements, or split into "unreachable truths", "unreachable falsehoods", and maybe some remaining "undecidable" ones. I'm fairly sure that the proponents of the latter still wouldn't have considered "just pick one already!" as the revelation of hidden truths that they were hoping for ...

So I only consider your mentioning of the continuum hypothesis to be something of a grey area. It differs a lot in tone from the others, since the question now (after having proved its independence of ZFC) is: "do you want the continuum hypothesis or not in your set theory?".

How is that different from "the Gödel statement we found for your current model is A, do you want to accept A or ¬A as an additional axiom?", or, for a more specific and obviously practical example, "does your geometry include the fifth (-> Euclidian / planar geometry) or its negation (-> non-Euclidian, e.g., spherical, geometry)" ... ?

[thegreyarea]

...
And yes, I'm aware that there used to be near-holy wars about whether the "grey area" is a uniform mass of "undecidable" statements, or split into "unreachable truths", "unreachable falsehoods", and maybe some remaining "undecidable" ones.
...

I hope it's all in the past. Please no wars about the grey area! Holy, near-holy or totally unholy! Make love, not war! 

[Groupoid]

(Off-Thread-Topic alert ...)

Answered in another topic. I was a fool thinking I wouldn’t learn something, when taking up the discussion. I wonder how you think about my response.

I think a big problem with these flaming philosophical discussions about logic is, that while discussing we think we’re very sure we know what we mean, but actually we don’t express what we mean exactly. Or we don’t understand exactly what the other person meant. At least I believe I some of these things happened to me now. Which surprises me. I think I’ll have some humble pie now (and some bed). No wonder mathematicians developed such a precise language to communicate their thoughts.

[Róisín]

Indeed, both math and magic require the utmost precision in the defining of terms.

[Groupoid]

A little exercise inspired by the german poem "ottos mops".

Spoiler: That brat’s cat hat • show

Cat sat as brat’s hat.
⇒ Cat hat.
Cat spat at gnat that tapped at brat.
Splat splat
Fat brat tapped at cat hat brat
Fat brat: Drat! That rat shat at map!
Cat hat spat at rat.
Cat hat brat slapped rat.
Cat hat trapped rat.
Fat brat stabbed rat.
Cat hat sat at cat brat’s lap
Cat brat pats cat hat.
And cat hat napped at cat brat’s lap.

I’m so conflicted about posting this, argh! Is it finished? Is it good enough? I want to be done with it, so I post it.
I wonder if there are people for which this is not mono-vocalic in their variation of English.

Edit: Oh, and have this:
Rey waved.
“Hey! Cave!”
“Nej, nej” they say.
“Cave ain’t safe” they say.

[Keep Looking]

A little exercise inspired by the german poem "ottos mops".

Spoiler: That brat’s cat hat • show

Cat sat as brat’s hat.
⇒ Cat hat.
Cat spat at gnat that tapped at brat.
Splat splat
Fat brat tapped at cat hat brat
Fat brat: Drat! That rat shat at map!
Cat hat spat at rat.
Cat hat brat slapped rat.
Cat hat trapped rat.
Fat brat stabbed rat.
Cat hat sat at cat brat’s lap
Cat brat pats cat hat.
And cat hat napped at cat brat’s lap.

I’m so conflicted about posting this, argh! Is it finished? Is it good enough? I want to be done with it, so I post it.
I wonder if there are people for which this is not mono-vocalic in their variation of English.

Edit: Oh, and have this:
Rey waved.
“Hey! Cave!”
“Nej, nej” they say.
“Cave ain’t safe” they say.

It's a fun little poem! I enjoy the wordplay. At least for my version of english, all the 'a' sounds you have in there are the same 'a' sound, the short 'a' sound.

(and don't worry about things being good enough or not! it's ok just to have some fun with words, nobody's gonna judge)

[Róisín]

Groupoid, that was fun! I think you will find that many of us here enjoy word play, especially between languages.

[Vulpes]

...
I’m so conflicted about posting this, argh! Is it finished? Is it good enough? I want to be done with it, so I post it.
I wonder if there are people for which this is not mono-vocalic in their variation of English.

Generally, something is only done when you do post it (or submit it, or whatever). And if you're worrying about it being good enough, it's probably good enough!