Books!

[Róisín]

If a story has male/female characters with very different styles of magic, it may also be because the story is based in a culture where magic actually is gendered. In the Australian native traditions, for example, there is a strong division between ‘men’s business’ and ‘women’s business’, With each gender having sacred places and working sites where the other gender simply does not go. There are also some areas where the magic is ungendered and answers everyone.

[RanVor]

That's a lovely thing to say. Thank you!

Is that so?

I would be very disappointed to find a book populated with strong man and stereotypical females. Luckily that seldom happens with me. Maybe I'm lucky, or just very cautious before diving in a book.

I would not because, as I said at the beginning, characters are characters. It doesn't matter what gender they are, only if they're well-written. It could be better, of course, but I prefer to see things for what they are instead of what they have the potential to be. Good female characters are good, but their lack does not make good male characters any less good.

This conversation brought to mind the book(s) I'm currently (re)reading, Frank Herbert's "Dune" trilogy. There we have strong female characters, with their own agenda, even if the main character is a male. There's also an all-female "power-player", the Bene Gesserit.

My cousin has been reading Dune lately. He said it's boring and confusing. A matter of taste, I guess.

If a story has male/female characters with very different styles of magic, it may also be because the story is based in a culture where magic actually is gendered. In the Australian native traditions, for example, there is a strong division between ‘men’s business’ and ‘women’s business’, With each gender having sacred places and working sites where the other gender simply does not go. There are also some areas where the magic is ungendered and answers everyone.

I doubt that's what Robert Jordan had in mind for his world, but it sounds very interesting!

[lumilaulu]

I would not because, as I said at the beginning, characters are characters. It doesn't matter what gender they are, only if they're well-written. It could be better, of course, but I prefer to see things for what they are instead of what they have the potential to be. Good female characters are good, but their lack does not make good male characters any less good.

A lack of good female characters doesn't make good male characters any less good, but good male characters and stereotypical female characters does make a book less good. As would good female characters and stereotypical male characters, but that's far less common. I can't think of any I've encountered with that combination; if the male characters are badly-written, you can be sure the female characters are as well (if there even are any of note).

Is that so?

This is not the first discussion I've had about this and similar topics, and I've had reactions like "I don't get it, you are exaggerating" or "I don't see the problem, so you have no right to complain". So what you said was far nicer!

It also made me think on Ian M Bank's "Culture" (who would imagine that from me? ), where we have several genderless characters but, most relevant, where gender fluidity is a reality. For those that don't know, Culture's humans have the ability to switch their own gender at will, in a purely biological process that takes more or less an year to complete. (although during each story the main characters usually retain their genders). It's referred several times that during their long lives (hundreds of years) it's normal for a person to switch genders a few times. There's also a "neuter" character, someone that decided to stop the change midway, living without any sexual characteristic. I remember to be fascinated by that on my first contact with those stories.

That sounds like an interesting book.

[thorny]

In the Australian native traditions, for example, there is a strong division between ‘men’s business’ and ‘women’s business’, With each gender having sacred places and working sites where the other gender simply does not go. There are also some areas where the magic is ungendered and answers everyone.

Róisín, do you know whether there's a sense in that culture that 'men's business' is more important than 'women's business'? (Or the other way around, for that matter.)

[Jitter]

Honestly, I don't really need to understand. Just the fact that women are unhappy about it shows there are things to improve in that regard, and that's enough for me. Besides, more good female characters helps the variety. 

I also applaud you Ran for this! Far too many people go for the “I’ve never noticed this problem (because it never happens to me), hence, it’s not a problem. This happens in regard to many things, but the issue at hand is a common one.

I love this conversation and have so much to say, but now it’s bedtime for me. I hope to be able to come back to it later!

Ps The Bene Gesserit WoT has a similar all-female power centre, the Aes Sedai are the mostly powerful faction / group / nation etc in the world

[Róisín]

The importance seems to be reasonably equal, more according to the age and power of the site than the gender. There is some overlap in desperate times - the person who showed me the birthing cave near here was male, but he had permission from the female custodian of the site, and was himself an elderly and respected scholar. Reason was, he knew me well personally, she didn’t at the time, and they wanted to know the significance of some graffiti in the cave and what to do about them, since the symbols were obviously European magic (turned out to be some young fools messing with Nordic and Wiccan magic with no idea that the site was both live and not theirs to mess with). Once I had talked to the kids, the girls among them helped to clean it up, apologised, and went away much better informed, for which I am glad and relieved.

[RanVor]

I also applaud you Ran for this! Far too many people go for the “I’ve never noticed this problem (because it never happens to me), hence, it’s not a problem. This happens in regard to many things, but the issue at hand is a common one.

I would say it's just because my perspective on the world extends somewhat further than my immediate vicinity. It's really absurd and sad that you feel the need to praise me for something that should be a norm. This kind of thinking is sort of like saying that flu doesn't exist because I've never had it.

I wouldn't say I don't see the issue at all, but it affects me in a very different way, for rather obvious reasons. It's definitely a great deal less personal to me. However, since I don't consider myself the only relevant person in the world (quite the opposite, in fact), I'm not going to claim anybody else's concerns are less legitimate than mine (quite the opposite, in fact).

[Yastreb]

When I was in the early stages of the Dragonhost Saga, I'd discuss matters with Róisín and my sister.

On one occasion, I described to my sister one of the features of the setting; that while there are monsters in the world, for the most part they're the outcome of tainted magic causing life-forms to become distorted or merged in some way, as described by a character in Earthfire.
"A monster like the forebody and head of a wolf somehow merged with a boar. It had the heads of both and made the noise of both and had six legs and it moved… I can’t describe how it moved. It wasn’t like any animal or a snake… it was, well, flowing. Like it seemed to have no bones… and it was biting and gouging with both heads, and seeing with both heads, so we could not blind-side the beast…"

But she asked a valid question; why must that change always be for the worst? Can't there be beneficial outcomes? And I heeded that question.

It had huge hands, with three broad fingers and a thumb, and its legs ended in hooves. Thick brown fur cascaded down from its heavy neck like a cape, and its massive shoulders were broader than anyone Yastreb had ever seen, Human or Targrath.
<The Little One said, don’t be afraid,> it said in a deep, rumbling whisper. It seemed to take considerable effort in uttering the words. <But you are still afraid.>
Yastreb glanced at Haaki. She was struggling to speak. Fortitude was looking up at her, his eyes showing anxiety.
<You are not afraid.> It gestured at Dorian. <But... you’re confused.>
Myrallea said, <In our lands, it was said that... when animal and Human flesh was forced into one body by Tainted magic... the result was always an... an abomination.>
Yastreb felt a surge of horror at Myrallea’s words, and runes of defensive magic surged into his mind, but the creature made a calming gesture.
<Not always, Myrallea Moondown. Not for the Tsulath, the Marath, the Davutath.>
At those words, other shapes were emerging from the trees; a dozen or more; and Yastreb’s jaw went slack at the sight of Humans whose torsos arose from the forebodies of horses.
<So often there was only pain and terror, but sometimes... life is not denied.> Huge dark eyes were fixed on Yastreb. <As you know very well, Yastreb Stormblade. We lived and we survived. That is our story.>

There is another plot element that gave me some unease when I wrote it.
Early in book 2 (Stormblade) a mage sets in motion a plan of revenge against his half-sister and their clan, by leading her into a trap that imprisons her and lets him take her form. He's also imprisoned four others to give him the skills to impersonate her - one of them a courtesan, because his sister has a number of lovers and he needs to maintain that part of the pretence.
When I was putting that together, it caused me concern that it might be seen as a negative reference to transgenders.

[RanVor]

There is another plot element that gave me some unease when I wrote it.
Early in book 2 (Stormblade) a mage sets in motion a plan of revenge against his half-sister and their clan, by leading her into a trap that imprisons her and lets him take her form. He's also imprisoned four others to give him the skills to impersonate her - one of them a courtesan, because his sister has a number of lovers and he needs to maintain that part of the pretence.
When I was putting that together, it caused me concern that it might be seen as a negative reference to transgenders.

With a little malicious intent, almost anything can be seen as a negative reference to anything. It's another reason why worldbuilding is so hard - it requires a lot (and I mean A HELL OF A LOT) of thought to find the right balance between telling the story you want to tell and avoiding accidentally offending somebody. But you know what? If someone wants to be offended, they will be no matter what. Otherwise, sensible people should see that you had no ill will towards anybody while writing the relevant plot thread, provided you don't screw it up badly.

[lumilaulu]

transgenders

Just a heads-up, but you might want to avoid using transgender as a noun. The preferred term nowadays is trans person, trans people. With a space. The explanation I've seen for this is that using trans (or transgender) as an adjective shows that they are people first and foremost, and that being trans is simply one aspect of them. It also avoids the more negative history and associations transgender as a noun has. It's pretty similar to how colored is not considered an acceptable term anymore and was replaced with person/people of color or PoC.

[LooNEY_DAC]

So the above discussion on men writing female characters/the lack of good female characters is why I asked a question a few weeks ago about what was probably (I hope) intended as a compliment, since I’m trying to make a very complex balancing act work with one of the main characters in my “Saga of the Coin, the Sword and the Medallion”. Rather than further derail this thread, I’ll link to the post talking about my concerns in the OC Showcase Thread, and request any assistance you can give there.

[thegreyarea]

just dropping by, with very little time...

I agree with Ran, and add that there are some people so sensitive to any word use that it's like walking in a minefield... and that, as a minefield would do, leads me to get some safety distance and makes any conversation quite difficult. Sometimes it seems that a person is intently searching for reasons to be offended, without thinking that not everybody knows everything about the current trends in the use of some words. On written communication it's easier to happen because we lack the body language to convey emotions...

lumilaulu, as for "transgender" I still hear it being widely used, even by LGBT activists, but I see your point and it makes sense (besides it's easier to write).

LooNEY_DAC, right now I don't have time, but I already read your question and promise to think about it, although I'm not sure that I'll be able to help. But I'll try

[LooNEY_DAC]

LooNEY_DAC, right now I don't have time, but I already read your question and promise to think about it, although I'm not sure that I'll be able to help. But I'll try

Anything will help; thank you.

[viola]

I recently read a really interesting story online from the perspective of a deaf protagonist and it made me think about things differently and I loved it. Does anyone have any recommendations of good stories (fics) or books that are written from the perspective of deaf or blind characters? I love the way this last one made me think and I want more of that.

[lumilaulu]

lumilaulu, as for "transgender" I still hear it being widely used, even by LGBT activists, but I see your point and it makes sense (besides it's easier to write).

Oh, the word transgender itself is fine AFAIK! I didn't mean that the word should be avoided. "She is transgender", "a transgender man", "coming out as transgender", "transgender issues", etc. are usually considered fine, or you can shorten it to trans. "A transgender", "transgenders" are usually not considered fine.

I recently read a really interesting story online from the perspective of a deaf protagonist and it made me think about things differently and I loved it.

Is it a publicly accessible story? Because that does sound interesting.