Books!

[Hrollo]

Some fantasy I've been reading recently:

The Way of Kings (volume 1 of The Stormlight Archive), by Brandon Sanderson: didn't dislike it, I think I'll keep reading the series, but I was extremely underwhelmed compared to all the praise it had gotten before I got to it. It's supposed to be this groundbreaking, revolutionary fantasy, brilliant on many respects, and to me that was just... more of the same things I was reading in the 90s or 2000s. Oh sure, it deals with themes that weren't touched upon two or three decades ago (like a lot of focus on mental health and systems of discrimination), it's not behind the times, but passed these actualized themes it really felt like just more epic fantasy. The prose was also nothing remarkable, like, just well crafted enough to make itself forget, which to me is a huge drawback as prose is how I get into a story. I wanted to like this a lot more and I'm really disappointed that I don't, because this book means a lot to a lot of people, including people I would want to be able to connect with on an emotional level.

Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga series originally published from 1982 to 1994, of which the 1984 movie is a compressed and simplified adaptation), by Hayao Miyazaki: I had started reading this years ago but somehow failed to ever finish it. I finally got back to it, rereading from the start then continuing to the end, and I am so glad I did. Miyazaki has said he had two main inspirations when writing this series: The Lord of the Rings, and Dune, and it shows, as this is by far the most epic, the most complex, the most deeply layered, and the darkest of all of his creations. It's incredibly modern, dealing with themes such as the impact of war on civilians, trauma, discrimination. There are multiple central and fully realised female characters. There is a scene where Nausicaä is taking a bath, her nudity not hidden, and yet Miyazaki, who was 50 year old man at time, managed to draw this scene with the uttermost respect, with not a hint of leecherous or voyeuristic intent. I honnestly think this is Miyazaki's hidden masterpiece, and I need to reread it again, but as it goes it's on par to become by favorite fantasy story ever, on all media. If you have only seen the animated movie, I urge you to seek this — the movie is but a pale shadow of this series.

The Poppy War, by R.F. Kuang: this another highly praised book, but this one I wasn't just underwhelmed — I actively hated it. It actually shared many themes and elements with Nausicaä above, but basically, everything Nausicaä did right, I thought this did wrong. The pacing was all over the placed, with rushed timelines and underdevelopped scenes. The writing style in general was very mediocre, with lot of telling, clumsy similes and whatnot. The tone was not consistent at all, with 2/3rd of the story feeling like Naruto (that is, a fun martial art adventure with some edgy humor and some dark moments) and then the last third suddenly switching to over the top super serious grimdark with genocide, gruesome torture, sexual violence… The worldbuilding felt lazy and inconsistent, with elements from real Chinese history transposed 1:1 with just a name change, without any concern of whether they fit together in this universe, no attempt to establish a consistent technology level, character names that seem picked randomly from various East Asian ethnicities with no concern for how these characters are supposed to be related to one another or their actual geographic origin within that world. And if you add to that the uneasy feeling that this felt a lot like an anti-japanese revenge fic made under the cover of fantastical allegory… So yeah, this series, I won't give a second chance.

The Quest for The Time Bird (graphic novel; just first four books that deal with the main story; there's more stuff after that but it's a prequel story), by Serge Letendre and Regis Loisel: so this I had actually read years ago, but for some reason I only owned the first book in the series and so hadn't been able to reread for quite a while. It's start with a fairly basic fantasy premise — an evil God trapped years ago in a magical prison, a sorcerer-princess has figured a way to renew the spell but needs the help of an aging knight who is sent on one last quest in order to save the world — except that all of this unfolds in a dark, diseased and twisted world, progressively unfolding a very cruel and cynical story, to the point that as the end of the quest draws near, the reader wonders if this world is even worth saving. So this series has problems — redundant and not very good narration, and more problematic, it indulges in a number of sexist tropes that were unfortunately pretty common in French fantasy from the late 80s, even if to their credits, the authors do try to be clever and play with the tropes a bit and subvert some expectations; but still, it's there and can't be ignored. Despite this, I really like this series for what it does, for the kind of decaying and corrupted world it constructs, and for its dark storyline.

[lumilaulu]

Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga series originally published from 1982 to 1994, of which the 1984 movie is a compressed and simplified adaptation), by Hayao Miyazaki: I had started reading this years ago but somehow failed to ever finish it. I finally got back to it, rereading from the start then continuing to the end, and I am so glad I did. Miyazaki has said he had two main inspirations when writing this series: The Lord of the Rings, and Dune, and it shows, as this is by far the most epic, the most complex, the most deeply layered, and the darkest of all of his creations. It's incredibly modern, dealing with themes such as the impact of war on civilians, trauma, discrimination. There are multiple central and fully realised female characters. There is a scene where Nausicaä is taking a bath, her nudity not hidden, and yet Miyazaki, who was 50 year old man at time, managed to draw this scene with the uttermost respect, with not a hint of lecherous or voyeuristic intent. I honestly think this is Miyazaki's hidden masterpiece, and I need to reread it again, but as it goes it's on par to become by favorite fantasy story ever, on all media. If you have only seen the animated movie, I urge you to seek this — the movie is but a pale shadow of this series.

Seconding this recommendation. I've been meaning to reread it, but I haven't got round to it yet. The fully-fleshed female characters are one of the reasons I love Miyazaki's films. They are characters that just happen to be female, with good sides, bad sides, strength and doubts; but they all exist in their own right and aren't defined by the male characters around them, as so often happens in fantasy, unfortunately.

I love the Wheel of Time! I know it’s somewhat considered to be fantasy of the bubblegum variety, but I really don’t know why. There is lots and lots (and lots!) of description, which apparently is boring to some readers but I liked it. For example I like the way that the fact there are different magics for men and women also has repercussions in the roles of the genders. Too many fantasy books have important female characters such as adventurers and queens, but all other women are in the roles medieval women had. (Perhaps partially resulting from this the gender dichotomy is very stark. But then it almost always is in fantasy.)

Stark gender dichotomy is something that easily puts me off. I haven't read the Wheel of Time, so I can't say anything about it specifically, and there is absolutely good fantasy with very different roles for men and women, but in my opinion more often than not it's lazy writing, not bothering to look beyond stereotypes and properly imagine a fantasy world that is different from ours in more ways than just "magical & medieval".

[Alkia]

Some fantasy I've been reading recently:

Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga series originally published from 1982 to 1994, of which the 1984 movie is a compressed and simplified adaptation), by Hayao Miyazaki: I had started reading this years ago but somehow failed to ever finish it. I finally got back to it, rereading from the start then continuing to the end, and I am so glad I did. Miyazaki has said he had two main inspirations when writing this series: The Lord of the Rings, and Dune, and it shows, as this is by far the most epic, the most complex, the most deeply layered, and the darkest of all of his creations. It's incredibly modern, dealing with themes such as the impact of war on civilians, trauma, discrimination. There are multiple central and fully realised female characters. There is a scene where Nausicaä is taking a bath, her nudity not hidden, and yet Miyazaki, who was 50 year old man at time, managed to draw this scene with the uttermost respect, with not a hint of leecherous or voyeuristic intent. I honnestly think this is Miyazaki's hidden masterpiece, and I need to reread it again, but as it goes it's on par to become by favorite fantasy story ever, on all media. If you have only seen the animated movie, I urge you to seek this — the movie is but a pale shadow of this series.

oh yes, totally second you and lumilaulu here. I might warn for any kids or people who are sensitive to this sort of thing that the manga is definitely more adult and sad compared to the movie (i was surprised and may or may not have had some nightmares. worth it tho), but it's so so good. I agree, too, that this is really underrated-- I hadn't even heard of it till I saw it at the Library!!! and with the female protagonists, that is one of my very favorite things about Ghibli: having female characters in the hero roles, but without any sexualization or dependance on outer male characters.

[viola]

oo i read The Left Hand of Darkness last summer (its so good!!! i also love!!!), and am currently consuming whatever other Ursula Le Guin books I can get my hands on. A few weeks ago i finally finished the second volume of Hainish stories, and I am currently reading Lavinia (which is historical fiction, not fantasy or science fiction, but I'm loving it. Reminds me of a book I read a while ago called "Circe", by Madeline Miller, which is also a fantastic read that I highly recommend). 

Have you read Ursula's short story The Flyers of Gy? I am addicted to it and I want to write stories set in that world god I love it so much. It's sooooooooooo goooood please read it. It should only take you a few minutes. I need to share this joy with everyone. The amount of world building and culture she conjures up in just a few pages is !!!!! 

[RanVor]

Seconding this recommendation. I've been meaning to reread it, but I haven't got round to it yet. The fully-fleshed female characters are one of the reasons I love Miyazaki's films. They are characters that just happen to be female, with good sides, bad sides, strength and doubts; but they all exist in their own right and aren't defined by the male characters around them, as so often happens in fantasy, unfortunately.
Stark gender dichotomy is something that easily puts me off. I haven't read the Wheel of Time, so I can't say anything about it specifically, and there is absolutely good fantasy with very different roles for men and women, but in my opinion more often than not it's lazy writing, not bothering to look beyond stereotypes and properly imagine a fantasy world that is different from ours in more ways than just "magical & medieval".

To me, characters are fundamentally characters first and foremost. Their gender matters only so far as it serves the story. Otherwise, why dwell on it? A poorly written female character is just a poorly written character, exactly like a poorly written male character, and the same applies to well-written characters.

The thing about the Wheel of Time is that the characters' gender is actually crucial to the story because of the division of magic. The magic of men is cursed and drives anyone using it insane. So while women capable of channeling (that's how it's called in the series) wield great political influence due to their abilities, men doing the same are hunted down and stripped of their powers or killed. The problem is, the prophesied chosen one is both male and a powerful channeler, so the entire world is potentially mighty screwed.

[ftmshepard]

Two recs: an author, and one of her books in specific.

The author is Ursula Vernon, the book is Summer In Orcus.

A very frightened 11 year old girl ends up in a world called Orcus thanks to Baba Yaga. She meets animal friends, and helps out the Frog Tree.

Remember:
-Don't worry about things you can't control.
-Don't trust antelope women.

[lumilaulu]

To me, characters are fundamentally characters first and foremost. Their gender matters only so far as it serves the story. Otherwise, why dwell on it? A poorly written female character is just a poorly written character, exactly like a poorly written male character, and the same applies to well-written characters.

Absolutely. In an ideal world, I wouldn't care less. It's just that it's far easier to find well-written male characters than well-written female characters. As much as I like fantasy, there are plenty of examples of this in the genre. Stories with decently-written male characters and poorly-written female characters that only serve as accessories to the male characters. Which is why I'm wary of any fantasy story with a sharp gender divide.

The thing about the Wheel of Time is that the characters' gender is actually crucial to the story because of the division of magic. The magic of men is cursed and drives anyone using it insane. So while women capable of channeling (that's how it's called in the series) wield great political influence due to their abilities, men doing the same are hunted down and stripped of their powers or killed. The problem is, the prophesied chosen one is both male and a powerful channeler, so the entire world is potentially mighty screwed.

Gender-based magic can certainly be a reason for having a clear gender divide. But there's too much of that in the real world already; I prefer fantasy to be proper fantasy instead of a carbon-copy of the real world (or any of its historical time period). Your gender is still considered so important in this world, I like when that is not the case in a fantasy world, when gender is wholly irrelevant; and when gender being irrelevant doesn't somehow translate to an (almost exclusively) all-male cast.

[Jitter]

To me, characters are fundamentally characters first and foremost. Their gender matters only so far as it serves the story. Otherwise, why dwell on it? A poorly written female character is just a poorly written character, exactly like a poorly written male character, and the same applies to well-written characters.

The thing about the Wheel of Time is that the characters' gender is actually crucial to the story because of the division of magic. The magic of men is cursed and drives anyone using it insane. So while women capable of channeling (that's how it's called in the series) wield great political influence due to their abilities, men doing the same are hunted down and stripped of their powers or killed. The problem is, the prophesied chosen one is both male and a powerful channeler, so the entire world is potentially mighty screwed.

Exactly! This is my point! It’s opposite to how it too often is. Men and women have different roles, but they are not the same roles as in our world / our history.

Lumilaulu, what you describe is something I also hate. It’s common in fantasy, but unfortunately in many other genres too. The most grievous example I have encountered is a Finnish series of children, where the narrator character is a girl, and STILL there are boys who are smart, stupid, belligerent and sensitive, and girls who are just girls with no other characteristics.

But, like Ran explains, this is not the case with Wheel of Time. The female characters are not at all “medieval mums who happen to have magic”. Also there are female minor characters (which is too often missing), that are traders, bodyguards, innkeepers, spies, artificers, elders, political superpowers... it’s been years since I read it but the point is it’s not one of those where the key cast includes women and that’s it. This is all the more surprising as it’s so often written off as “another megalong entertainment series”, most of which tend to have a very different situation regarding females.

Mostly I wanted to point out that it has merits, in my mind more than often acknowledged. Ran, as you already noticed, I recommend for you to continue with it

[RanVor]

Absolutely. In an ideal world, I wouldn't care less. It's just that it's far easier to find well-written male characters than well-written female characters. As much as I like fantasy, there are plenty of examples of this in the genre. Stories with decently-written male characters and poorly-written female characters that only serve as accessories to the male characters. Which is why I'm wary of any fantasy story with a sharp gender divide.

That's down to the competence of the author. Historically, the fantasy genre has been dominated by male authors for decades, so there aren't that many good examples for new writers to imitate. Who knows, maybe it'll change somewhere down the line. I'm cautiously optimistic about it.

Gender-based magic can certainly be a reason for having a clear gender divide. But there's too much of that in the real world already; I prefer fantasy to be proper fantasy instead of a carbon-copy of the real world (or any of its historical time period). Your gender is still considered so important in this world, I like when that is not the case in a fantasy world, when gender is wholly irrelevant; and when gender being irrelevant doesn't somehow translate to an (almost exclusively) all-male cast.

Fantasy has to be based on something, lest it stops being believable. Drawing inspiration from the real world is natural because that's what we all know. It's also natural for readers to assume things work the same way in a fictional world as they do in the real one unless specified otherwise. In this context, reality becomes a common ground for the author and the audience to stand on - something that can be understood without being explained in detail. And with worldbuilding being as difficult and time-consuming as it is, it's hard to imagine writing anything without such foundation.

Of course, everyone's choice of literature is a matter of personal preference, but I believe the problem is more complex than just "go write some good female characters, dammit!". Moreover, while I understand your point and agree to an extent, I also think the gender divide and stereotypes are worthy themes to explore in literature. If handled with respect and caution, of course.

[lumilaulu]

Fantasy has to be based on something, lest it stops being believable. Drawing inspiration from the real world is natural because that's what we all know. It's also natural for readers to assume things work the same way in a fictional world as they do in the real one unless specified otherwise. In this context, reality becomes a common ground for the author and the audience to stand on - something that can be understood without being explained in detail. And with worldbuilding being as difficult and time-consuming as it is, it's hard to imagine writing anything without such foundation.

But that's the thing. Surely, if you're a halfway competent writer who has enough imagination to come up with a fantasy world, it shouldn't be that hard to not use the same old tired gender divides and stereotypes? Writing fantasy gives you a chance to change certain aspects of our world, to take the direction we're already going in (away from rigid gender roles) and go further with it, rather than regressing and going back to how things were in the past.

Ah well, I get the impression we all broadly agree, just not about specifics or how-to-get-there or stuff.

[RanVor]

But that's the thing. Surely, if you're a halfway competent writer who has enough imagination to come up with a fantasy world, it shouldn't be that hard to not use the same old tired gender divides and stereotypes? Writing fantasy gives you a chance to change certain aspects of our world, to take the direction we're already going in (away from rigid gender roles) and go further with it, rather than regressing and going back to how things were in the past.

Theoretically, yes. In practice, I don't think I would know how to do that. The further you stray from what you know from your life experience, the more you have to consider in order to remain consistent in your writing and the level of complication rises until you can't handle it anymore and just give up on writing. Now, I don't claim to be a halfway competent writer, but I've struggled with it, no, scratch that, I still struggle with it and thus I am not so quick to underestimate the challenge.

Ah well, I get the impression we all broadly agree, just not about specifics or how-to-get-there or stuff.

I think you're the first person in a very long time to get that impression from arguing with me. I can't count how many times my words have been misinterpreted and twisted to mean something very different than what I intended to say. I must say, though, it's nice to be understood. 

[lumilaulu]

The further you stray from what you know from your life experience

Of course there are many places where women are still oppressed and considered inferior to men, culturally and/or legally, but it's 2020 and if we're talking about Western fantasy, I don't know where these writers are coming from that women are mostly wives/mothers/lovers—i.e. defined in their relation to others (read: men) rather than people with their own work, their own lives, their own agency.
I applaud you for realising what you're struggling with, though! That can only make you better as a writer.

I think you're the first person in a very long time to get that impression from arguing with me. I can't count how many times my words have been misinterpreted and twisted to mean something very different than what I intended to say. I must say, though, it's nice to be understood. 

Hmm, I think it was the "I'm cautiously optimistic about it" that did it. That implies that what I'm arguing for is also something you'd want, and that we're not there yet. That sets you apart from all those straight white cis men (no idea how many of those you are or aren't, I don't mean to imply anything) who can't/don't want to understand why many women are still unhappy with many things, a lack of accurate representation in fiction being one of them.

[RanVor]

Of course there are many places where women are still oppressed and considered inferior to men, culturally and/or legally, but it's 2020 and if we're talking about Western fantasy, I don't know where these writers are coming from that women are mostly wives/mothers/lovers—i.e. defined in their relation to others (read: men) rather than people with their own work, their own lives, their own agency.

You know, most male writers have never been women. Not sure if you realize that, but there's a very pervasive stereotype among men, that women think and perceive the world in a completely different way than men. With no way to verify that, most writers write from their own, often limited experience with women and often end up reaching for stereotypes to cover the gaps.

Or at least I hope that's what they do, I don't want to believe that most male novelists are misogynistic scumbags. That would suck.

Hmm, I think it was the "I'm cautiously optimistic about it" that did it. That implies that what I'm arguing for is also something you'd want, and that we're not there yet. That sets you apart from all those straight white cis men (no idea how many of those you are or aren't, I don't mean to imply anything) who can't/don't want to understand why many women are still unhappy with many things, a lack of accurate representation in fiction being one of them.

Honestly, I don't really need to understand. Just the fact that women are unhappy about it shows there are things to improve in that regard, and that's enough for me. Besides, more good female characters helps the variety. 

[lumilaulu]

You know, most male writers have never been women. Not sure if you realize that, but there's a very pervasive stereotype among men, that women think and perceive the world in a completely different way than men. With no way to verify that, most writers write from their own, often limited experience with women and often end up reaching for stereotypes to cover the gaps.

Years ago I went to a talk by an author whose books I loved as a child. He'd only ever written about boys, but for his newest book he'd chosen to make the main character a girl. (Paraphrased from memory:) He said that he'd never written about women/girls because he'd never been a girl, and he didn't know how to write a credible girl. But then he realised women/girls aren't some kind of strange species and that writing a credible teenage girl isn't all that different from writing a credible teenage boy. And that there are enough women around, and fiction by, with, about women to check your own ideas and writings against.

Honestly, I don't really need to understand. Just the fact that women are unhappy about it shows there are things to improve in that regard, and that's enough for me.

That's a lovely thing to say. Thank you!

[thegreyarea]

I'm quite happy to see how lively this thread is right now!

And I agree with you, Ran, lumilaulu and, of course, Jitter (I'm yet to see myself disagreeing with you, my friend): I love to see an author creating great female characters (and also exploring other gender options). I would be very disappointed to find a book populated with strong man and stereotypical females. Luckily that seldom happens with me. Maybe I'm lucky, or just very cautious before diving in a book.

This conversation brought to mind the book(s) I'm currently (re)reading, Frank Herbert's "Dune" trilogy. There we have strong female characters, with their own agenda, even if the main character is a male. There's also an all-female "power-player", the Bene Gesserit.
It also made me think on Ian M Bank's "Culture" (who would imagine that from me? ), where we have several genderless characters but, most relevant, where gender fluidity is a reality. For those that don't know, Culture's humans have the ability to switch their own gender at will, in a purely biological process that takes more or less an year to complete. (although during each story the main characters usually retain their genders). It's referred several times that during their long lives (hundreds of years) it's normal for a person to switch genders a few times. There's also a "neuter" character, someone that decided to stop the change midway, living without any sexual characteristic. I remember to be fascinated by that on my first contact with those stories.
To finish this long post I'd add another trilogy, this time in the Fantasy field, from a recent author: Brian Staveley's "Chronicles of the Unhewn Throne". It's not at the same level of Herbert or Banks, but it's quite good, and also features strong and autonomous female characters.

Oh, there's also Annalee Newitiz's "Autonomous" and Charlie Jane Anders' "All the Birds in the Sky", both SF, quite good and featuring well written female characters.