All Infopages

[lwise]

Earlier someone else was asking about governments in the various countries, and she handwaved it saying that the villages are self-governing but there are not central governments. This cannot possibly be the case as the countries have militaries and national scale projects.

I wonder if they just have militaries, without a central government.  That is, after the Rash wiped out existing civilization, many small groups ended up with equipment like ships.  If they managed to maintain them and adapt them to use available fuel, then they could offer their services to others.  Some villages therefore run cargo ships and make their money transporting goods; others run naval vessels and make their money defending such ships.

Then there are those, like the Eides, who find they have a talent and enthusiasm for hunting trolls, so they make their money hiring out to kill trolls.  (They appear to assign ranks to suit themselves.  Notice that the Eides has a General, but at least from what I've been able to find for the U.S., a General would command an army of 50K or more, far more than the entire Known World could muster.  I have the impression that Sigrun's parents are also Generals, but that may be from fanfic.)

It may seem like this kind of "private" military would fail, requiring a central government.  I'm thinking of the original fire departments, which were likewise private.  If you wanted the fire department to come put out fires for you, you paid a subscription and got a plaque so the department knew to help you.  But if you paid your subscription, but your neighbors didn't, then your building might burn down because your neighbor's fire got out of control and the fire department couldn't fight the resulting conflagration.  Thus, fire departments became government agents paid out of taxes to protect everyone.  However, in this case, if a village decides not to pay the Eides to defend them against trolls, and they then get eaten by trolls, that won't measurably increase the risk of troll-attacks for anyone else.

The risk would be of this developing into a true feudal system, where the troll-hunters, like the Eide clan, extort money from non-fighters under threat of violence.  But that is a few generations down the line.

[JoB]

I wonder if they just have militaries, without a central government.

Historically, military powers without a government's power to control them tend to lead to the military being the government ...

for the U.S., a General would command an army of 50K or more, far more than the entire Known World could muster.

NATO feels it necessary to maintain their own rank codes because the traditional terms already vary in meaning between member nations before any Rashy Heart medals were ever handed out. I have no problem with officers responsible for the whole of what we would label "theater" of a conflict being called "general". Or, for that matter, "admiral" Olsens fleet apparently consisting of tanks, while he states that the ships at his station are all other nations'.

I have the impression that Sigrun's parents are also Generals, but that may be from fanfic.

I'm pretty sure that both being generals is canon, but couldn't pull a quote thereto out of my helmet ...

[lwise]

Historically, military powers without a government's power to control them tend to lead to the military being the government ...

Right, that's what I meant about "The risk would be of this developing into a true feudal system".

[Jitter]

Well, Finland has about 20 000 strong Defence Force in active duty in peace time, with nearly 300 000 wartime (could be supple,ented by another 900 000 in reserve) and we have some twenty generals plus a few admirals amd commodores to the bargain. So it’s not a function of how many underlings but of who is the top brass

I would say there’s a difference between a warlord system (feudal) and military government. The warlords would likely tend to form their own lands, and there wouldn’t be “Norway” but “Aurland” (Eideburg), “Rana” (Castle Johansen) etc. And Sweden clearly has some party that put in the huge effort of building the southern railway. The Cleansers could be a private corps selling land, but even that seems a bit unlikely.

[JoB]

I'm pretty sure that both being generals is canon, but couldn't pull a quote thereto out of my helmet ...

Duh. It's right in Sigruns official bio ...

[LooNEY_DAC]

I seem to have missed a lot of this, so I'll remedy that with the Biggest Post Ever.

chatlog_180818

Spoiler: show

Main Cast
[…]
Q.: What did the omen that Lalli saw predict? Was it about Tuuri or something else?
A. (0:29:58): No, it was about Tuuri.
[…]
Q.: Have you ever thought about making Lalli a canon autistic character? As an autistic person, I really recognize a lot of Lalli's personality traits as autistic traits, and it would mean a lot to the autistic community to have more positive representation of autism in the media! thanks~~
A. (1:24:11): No, I don’t think I’m gonna make him like diagnosed for anything, because then I would kinda lock myself into how I could write him, so I’m just having him as, leaving kinda up to, what part of his strangeness is because he wasn’t properly socialized as a child and what part is, you know, just the way he is, so I’m letting people like just [] for themselves, if that makes sense. I personally like characters that kinda leave it up to the reader to, like decide what they want to see in the character because that way more people can see themselves in them. Like, some people might just be like “Oh, I’m not super-great with people, so I see myself in Lalli!” and stuff like that, [] them being super specific about it. I’m glad to hear that you find, a lot that you, what’s the word, empathize with Lalli.
[…]
Q.:Will anyone be singing in the comic?
A. (2:09:28): I don’t think so. No, I’m starting to doubt myself. Maybe there would be situations where they would have a reason to sing. Not going to say anything about that.
[…]
Worldbuilding
[…]
Q.: Did (or why didn't) the military try to use airplanes to scout other parts of Europe or parts that would be accessible in one flight for possible signs of civilisation? Cost/benefit analysis or pessimism?
A. (1:05:53): In the world that I’ve designed they don’t use airplanes for anything. They are too much of a risk, because people can use them to access safe areas, infected people, so you are not allowed to use airplanes. They have been allowed to rot away and there is no effort to salvage them. Mostly that was the decision I made for worldbuilding reasons, because I wanted the societies be a little more isolated than they would be if air travel was a thing. But that’s an in-world reason why they don’t have airplanes.
This is a thing I do a lot with worldbuilding. I decide on something to create a certain feeling and then have to come up with logical reasons why. Sometimes the best things I come up are like, “it’s mystery!” and stuff. Sometimes I come up with things that make sense and that’s the better way to do things. Like you can have some things that don’t necessarily make sense, but not all. If you start to complicate your world too much things can start falling apart.
[…]
Rash, Magic and Ghosts
[…]
Q.: How do gods "work"? In comic we saw three sets of gods so far: nordic gods, Finnish gods and christian God. Are gods created by belief? Are there many gods and some are discovered and then worshiped? Something else entirely? Would christian God, if there were (or are, who knows  ) assume a more active role in granting miracles/magic/something along this lines?
A. (0:33:59): I’m not going to define super-specifically how gods and magic in the world work because that would kill a lot of the mysticism of the story, and also kinda limit what I want to do with things. You know, when you make super-hard rules for magic and stuff, sometimes it works, but sometimes it gets too boring when it’s like: “It’s because *this* and *this*, and only this works and this doesn’t work…”. And even for you guys, if you like doing your own fan stories; I know some of you like doing different cultures in the SSSS universe, I don’t want to limit your imagination for how magic and stuff works in those settings.
[…]
Q.: Does that mean puns wouldn’t work in the Dreamworld?
A. (2:48:00): Aaah, we’re getting too specific! If I say “no” then people who want to write fanfiction with puns won’t be able to do it, so I can’t answer that question.
[…]
Q.: Do the immune have some sort of antibodies against the Rash? Also, have they tried creating a vaccine for the Rash?
A. (3:26:15): Well I haven't, like, set in stone exactly how or what, like, causes immunity. Like, is it partly supernatural or is it all biological. And yeah, of course they've tried all kinds of things to create vaccines. Haven't really worked out yet.

So, the above quote quotes a stream from 2018, which might be why people either missed or forgot about it.

First point: the omen was about Tuuri's death. It was not pointing to something that was later scrubbed; it was specifically about the big traumatic event that was coming up.

Second point: yes, Minna only set worldbuilding details as she mentioned them, and wanted the vast majority of such details to remain unknown so that she and fanfic writers would have as much freedom as possible.

Third point: Onni's complete shut-in state is closer to the norm for everyone in every nation, as evidenced by "let the airplanes rot"; this also explains why the "provable" magic is disbelieved in Sweden and Bornholm: Almost everyone in those nations has never met and will never meet a mage, and they won't believe unless they're shown personally.

Fourth point: Sigrun's flashback to Norway would be the most best place to discuss what we see of the military there.

[tehta]

Thank you for sharing that!

About magic: I seem to recall that Minna said that (some) Swedes and Danes would have access to the Norse gods, if they... trained or something. Am I misremembering? Can anyone find what I mean? Anyway, if this is the case, then that does imply some sort of centralized culture or even policy per country, doesn't it?

Also, to add to the info page discussion: that 'guide to different countries' is hilariously biased. Just read what they say about the poor Finns.

[JoB]

I seem to recall that Minna said that (some) Swedes and Danes would have access to the Norse gods, if they... trained or something. Am I misremembering? Can anyone find what I mean?

Minna once stated that (IIRC specifically Danish) mages, or, more properly, magic-endowed people, exist, but they're much less frequent than in the magic-embracing nations and, of course, the general nonbelieving state of their domestic culture doesn't help any to hone those skills.

Anyway, if this is the case, then that does imply some sort of centralized culture or even policy per country, doesn't it?

I don't quite get what you mean ... yes, the acceptance of magic as a real thing can be broadly derived from nationality, as both infopages and the in-comic conversations indicate. (I don't think that that qualifies as a "(full-fledged) culture" or "policy", though ...)

[tehta]

I mean that, if there are people with talent in every country, but the expression of that talent somehow occurs, or doesn't occur, at the country level, then that implies that all the different parts of that country share something -- either policy, or strong cultural links. Or just religion, which can include elements from both? If the situation were more like individual city-states, each with their own laws and customs, then i would expect the attitude to magic and existence of magic to be more fragmented.

So, my current understanding is that a mage is any innately gifted person who is also religious. And that a magic-gifted Dane could decide to worship the gods and gain access to his powers.

I looked through the logs and found this (the second question seems more relevant--although maybe Minna just didn't think about the Swedish/Danish part--but I am leaving the first one too as it says a bit about the intrinsic property of having magic powers. (Also for the shippiness, which I think some recent joiners will appreciate.)

Q.: Can a non-Finnish person convert to Finnish belief system and if so, would they be treated like a Finn (having a Luonto, entry to Tuonela after death, and the like)?
A. (3:01:03): Hmmm. I think that would be trickier, because the Finnish gods aren’t really that involved in human interaction, or they don’t really interact with humans or pay much attention to them unless they are directly addressed or asked for favours. There’s no one who would be able to grant a converting Swede or something their luonto. That’s something that comes with birth. So I don’t think it would really work out. But I think the other way around could work, like someone could start worshipping the Norse gods, and one of them could be like “Yeah, I like this person, I’m gonna make sure they get into Valhalla and I will give them my favours.” But maybe some of them would be able to.. If Icelandic mage would want to become a Finnish mage, they would probably be able to, if they learn Finnish fluently, probably ask a favour of the Finnish gods and that way kinda become part of the Finnish world. But they wouldn’t be able to get a luonto, I don’t think. And getting into Tuonela - that would be tricky, I guess? Maybe you would be able to get into Tuonela if you were good enough or you had maybe another Finnish mage to kinda guide you, I guess you would need the guidance to get there. So if someone would be able to ask the Swan to bring you over instead of you going to Valhalla.. See, I didn’t really thought about that beforehand, so I’m speculating the rules of my own comic universe.
Q.: Oh my, I asked a hard question.
A. (3:05:24): Yes, it was! I think that would be one of those situations where maybe I wouldn’t want to give too specific answers, because.. Maybe it’s something that hasn’t really been tried a lot in the world yet, it wouldn’t have been that many years. A couple decades, maybe, since the Finns and other Norse people would have gotten into contact with each other. So there wouldn’t have been a lot of overlap in mages trying to adopt the other pantheon instead of their own. Like, why would you? Unless you’ve fallen in love with someone from one of the other countries. So there would be a lot of variables. Something would maybe be possible with enough trying and effort and power. And other things maybe would never be possible, because they will be things that are granted by birth. Or to birth. Or at birth?

Q.: Did Denmark, Norway or Sweden ever have their own mages?
A. (3:37:22): Yeah, they kinda do. Those who are discovered to have mage powers are usually trained in Iceland, since they are of the same stock, they don’t have different kinds of powers that the Icelandic ones, and Iceland has the best facilities for training.

[JoB]

I mean that, if there are people with talent in every country, but the expression of that talent somehow occurs, or doesn't occur, at the country level, then that implies that all the different parts of that country share something -- either policy, or strong cultural links. Or just religion, which can include elements from both?

Well, yeah. As I said, we do have that, as evidenced by the info pages, as well as, e.g., Emil turning to Mikkel to discuss magic at one point, obviously expecting him to be as incredulous as himself. Only for much-traveled Mikkel to respond that he is somewhat open to the possibility.

If the situation were more like individual city-states, each with their own laws and customs, then i would expect the attitude to magic and existence of magic to be more fragmented.

... that's a can of worms, probably. Preachers - if religious beliefs come into play - come a-knocking at the weirdest, otherwise isolated places. Just compare the situations before (continent-wide religious wars, with sides backed by back-then "superpowers") and after (regent of every itty bitty principality gets to pick) the Peace of Westphalia ...

So, my current understanding is that a mage is any innately gifted person who is also religious. And that a magic-gifted Dane could decide to worship the gods and gain access to his powers.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that a nation's general (non)adherence to the ancient religions was said to be the direct cause of even the talent (or "gift", as you call it) getting more or less frequent among its population, with lack of possibilities for a specific gifted person to get the required training being a second bottleneck to that nation's mage recruitment efforts. But that's just details, I suppose.

[Jitter]

Let me clarify. Minna specifically raised the omen as something she originally had intended to show way to an adventure where omens play a big part. This was in stream within the last few months before the comic ended. The point was not what that particular omen was meant to predict, but that it was meant to be one of many and not the only one. Admittedly, Tuuri was the only one event of such magnitude, so it works as a stand alone too. But this was an example she gave herself.

So, the omen being about Tuuri’s death, and Minna having planned but later abandoned to use more omens in the future are both true.

[LooNEY_DAC]

Let me clarify. Minna specifically raised the omen as something she originally had intended to show way to an adventure where omens play a big part. This was in stream within the last few months before the comic ended. The point was not what that particular omen was meant to predict, but that it was meant to be one of many and not the only one. Admittedly, Tuuri was the only one event of such magnitude, so it works as a stand alone too. But this was an example she gave herself.

So, the omen being about Tuuri’s death, and Minna having planned but later abandoned to use more omens in the future are both true.

I didn't say you were wrong about that. I mentioned the omen being about Tuuri because...

...that one scene became kind of random. Which reminds me that I haven't read anything about it - I suppose everyone was waiting for whatever the omen predicted to happen in canon, and then it didn't,...

...which led me to believe that you'd either forgotten or never read that particular stream.

I'm sorry if I came across as attacking you; such was not my intention.

[Jitter]

Oh no no, I thought that we disagreed but didn’t feel it was an attack! Zero worries!

[Jitter]

Does p 70 count as an info page? The comment I have is a world rather than story comment, so I’ll go here. http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=70

I’ve been wondering how common it is to be a mage in Finland, as in whether there are a handful, dozens, or hundreds at any given time. This page has very pertinent information! Over 10% of people in Keuruu are mages. It might be that they are concentrating here, so perhaps it’s not quite that common among all Finns, but definitely qt least a couple hundred in total. Or it may be that there are fewer mages here - someone must be keeping the villages safe, and if all military is here, then it falls to the mages? In any case we know that not all mages are military.

There is also a comment by Minna (probably under some other page) that Iceland doesn’t really have much of an army, just the guards hunting for sea beasts and some who guard the coast on land side. But none who have experience in the Silent lands.

[Jitter]

Pori-Keuruu waterway http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=86

The map is pretty close to actual geography, but there is one major difference. In Tampere, the water flows via Tammerkoski from Näsijärvi in the north southward into Pyhäjärvi. The stream goes dead center through the city. Nowadays there are about 10 bridges and three dams. Bearing in mind that that the Brigade in Keuruu was engineer corps, they would probably be quite able to blow these away, and in most places the stream is wide enough so that even a moderate size giant couldn’t reach from the shore to the middle.

However the problem is navigability. The Tammerkoski rapids have a drop of 18 m over the distance of some 2 km. There is no canal in the real world, I assume in ancient times it was boat dragging and since the settlement became established some hundred of years ago, it’s largely been changing of ships here as it wouldn’t be too long a walk from one port on the northern end to another in the south.

So either this world is different from ours in this area, or it as been shaped by some very powerful party, by which I mean divine intervention. We don’t know if any if the mages have some sort of earth-shaper powers, but the required scale is so great that I think we can discount it. It would also seem weird that the gods would do such physical changes in this one place but not elsewhere.

Or maybe the paddlewheeler has some sort of river witch in the crew, whi can do something that allows the ship to pass the rapids? This would have to be a reasonably common skill to make using and particularly initially preparing the waterway for use.

Here is a picture of one of the dams, the center one. Note several meters of difference in water level. (The building is a power plant).



The other dams have power plants too, but this is the only one where I have find a spot where I can capture the water level on both sides at least somewhat visibly.