Author Topic: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work  (Read 40743 times)

angsttronaut

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2022, 04:19:21 PM »
Read the new comic (it's on her website), and it's quite disturbing really. Particularly the third from last chapter.

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2022, 05:17:39 PM »
Read the new comic (it's on her website), and it's quite disturbing really. Particularly the third from last chapter.

I agree, but maybe for different reasons. 

It does have a lot of LP vibes, and some really chilling aspects of her personality as she described them.

At the end of it all I was meh..

Some of the things she described about her emotional state may be unwelcome triggers for people. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 10:14:35 PM by dmeck7755 »
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2022, 11:19:03 PM »
I found it an interesting read for me personally because the religion she's gone into is the one that I left (reform-leaning baptists - I was a pastor's kid) with the full understanding of how the theology worked.

I'm glad that finding Christianity helped Minna to get out of some pretty bad mental places and also form relationships with other people. But it also feels a little weird for me to read. It's an interesting insight into different ways that she has thought and why she ended up where she did, but I can confidently say it hasn't created any desire in me to go back.

I guess I don't find it as disturbing as others might, but I think that's mostly just because I'm fairly desensitised to a lot of stuff. Usually when people tell me how they've thought about stuff, even if it's rather disturbing, I tend to take it at face value and accept that it was a way that they thought without feeling particularly many emotions about it, unless they're someone I deeply care about.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2022, 04:08:50 PM »
A quick note: I know a lot of people don’t know this, but degenerate is a word that means, “having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable.” It is predominantly an insulting description of disabled people. It entered most people's vocabulary because it is an anti-queer dog whistle. It is also used to mean anti-POC and immigrants, amongst others. Something we should keep in mind.

Okay, so I would be glad if finding God made her happy, but she depicts herself as having an unhealthy mindset about God. It honestly disturbs me. It reminds me so much of the victims of religious abuse and former cult members that I have seen. Almost the entire comic shows her in an unhealthy mental state, and that did not stop when she became a Christian. I am sure she would disagree with me, but that is what she shows us.

There is no mention of whether she has changed her views since she released LP. In the end of the A Meandering Line, she does seem to be improving as a person. If her views are the same as when she released LP, I think that improvement can only go so far.

Based on this comic, I think she needs therapy. Yes, we are shown changes over the years, but she still struggles with her mental health. (Also, her having more compassion for others would be good. Therapy could help with that too. Just saying.)

Also, her thing about the word of the Bible (also seen in LP) is weird to me. The book was written by humans and has been translated over and over again. We've got translations of translations of translations, all written by people. No Bible could ever be the word of God verbatim.

Otherwise, the art is good. Not great or anything, but if she is putting less time into art on smaller projects, I think that’s fine. The way the story is told is good. I mean, I think. It’s a bit hard to tell when you don’t like what is written, but I think it is written well.

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2022, 03:52:32 AM »
To me it also reads like she switched one unhealthy mental state (drawing weird conclusions from beeing worried about everything ending in the distant future) for an other unhealthy mental state (beeing worried god would crash a plane in her house).

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2022, 04:42:36 PM »
I have now read it too. Not as bad as I feared. There's lots of blaming herself of being horrible (a lot more than deserved I'm sure) but not much blaming of others.

It's also interesting to learn her mum is Pentecostal and she's actually gone to (their) church as a child quite a lot. The Pentecostals are not very common here in Finland and many of them are... maybe not exactly zealots but very enthusiastic about their religion. Especially in comparison with most Finns, religion is not a subject that is commonly discussed here. So, anyone who goes to church regularly will be viewed by others as having at least hints of zealotry.

Also I was glad to notice her church choosing criteria included "must not accidentally join a cult" because honestly I was a bit worried for a while. Although the churches she did consider are... well, not cults by any means, but a bit fringe here in the Finnish religious landscape (if such can be considered to exist). One was set up because our main church, the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran church accepts female priesthood, while some types cannot even start to consider it. I was a bit sad to see Minna is apparently one of these types, I don't understand why but then I don't understand her conversion either.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2022, 01:15:42 PM »
Okay, unpopular opinion, but as a fan of autobiographical comics, i like A Meandering Line. Or rather, I'm glad it exists, because it made me understand a lot more about what's happening with Minna and as such it is an interesting cultural and psychological document. To me, it's a comic less about religion and more about the coping mechanisms one finds when one is materially comfortable but sheltered, book-smart but not emotionally intelligent. It also pretty much confirmed to me that Minna is autistic, something I'd been suspecting for a long time based on her depiction of Lalli (I know the caveats about armchair diagnosing people, but I have a good record of recognizing other neurodivergents even before they are diagnosed, and I am autistic myself, so I don't say this lightly). It reminds me of very young me, who used to find interaction with people unpleasant and confusing and was looking for an outside Purpose to bring meaning to life instead. My partner (also autistic) took screenshots of parts of the comic to take to therapy because they describe some of his experiences very well.

Anyway, I wish someone told Minna about therapy. Though I suspect she believes only "weak" or "really crazy" people go there (or those who don't have god's help?). She is such a fascinating mix of self-importance and guilt. I hope she will continue her slow progress towards understanding people and her place among them a bit better, and get to a better place than she is now. I do believe she can do it and she might surprise us pleasantly in the future, though it may take a very long time.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 01:23:39 PM by Sc0ut »

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #112 on: November 28, 2022, 01:12:04 AM »
I like your take, Sc0ut - as always, you bring thoughtful analysis to a topic.  I hope your vision for Minna's future comes to pass.
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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2022, 09:52:25 PM »
So, caveat, I haven't read the new comic yet. Will do that sometime when I have more energy. Right now I fear it would just leave me angry and depressed. But with that said...

But after that she refers to these comics as "empty entertainment", implying they are not meaningful art, and that her good reputation as an artist, the connections she made, and the support of her fans was a frivolous indulgence. And thats...really shocking to read since I know many people consider those comics to be deeply meaningful and beautiful art.
Someone get this girl a copy of A Defence of Penny Dreadfuls, stat!

And, like... We all kinda knew this was coming when she cancelled City of Hunger. Something that had seemed pretty important to her, that was resonating with an awful lot of us as well, and she dismisses it as unimportant, meaningless, frivolous, and (most importantly) a distraction from what really matters. An avid (if mediocre) gamer and aspiring game dev myself, I was frankly offended by the assertion that video games are just a waste of time.

And there was also the time she said her work wasn't going to be so subtle with its themes that you wouldn't know it was Christian unless you specifically went looking for it, like The Chronicles of Narnia. You know, the books about children meeting an incarnate god, who was the son of the emperor, who died and rose again, and who also rules over our world but under a different name, whom the characters meet and recognize under that our-world identity after they die and go to heaven in the last book. That was too subtle for her? And I suppose she thinks VeggieTales is a secular sketch comedy show?

Never trust people who try to tell you that following Christ means you have to cut away every other part of yourself. It is true that, per Christian belief, Christ calls us to a fairly radical rejection of earthly attachments. But the very same Bible tells us that God created the world (Oh, noes, The World™!) and said that it was good! That Christ came because God so loved the world! That the God who created the heavens and the earth and all their wonders is to be praised (among other ways) specifically in relation to those wonders! That nature glorifies God simply by existing! That he, the creator, created us in his own image and likeness! The (perhaps obvious?) implication of that is that if we're images of God the creator, then our creative impulses are a reflection of him, even when they're not specifically, overtly about him.

Okay, so I would be glad if finding God made her happy, but she depicts herself as having an unhealthy mindset about God. It honestly disturbs me. It reminds me so much of the victims of religious abuse and former cult members that I have seen. Almost the entire comic shows her in an unhealthy mental state, and that did not stop when she became a Christian. I am sure she would disagree with me, but that is what she shows us.
It's not just you. I'm getting significant "Minna has joined a cult" vibes. Everything I just ranted about above makes me think of high-control groups forbidding members from thinking and talking about things from outside the cult. Reminds me of some people I know who were educated with Catholic homeschool materials that were so religious that every single lesson had a Catholic theme. For instance, in English lessons, all the example sentences told boring little stories about the lives of the saints. I can't say it's surprising that those people are no longer practicing Catholics. I also wasn't all that surprised when Catholic blogger and cult survivor Mary Pezzulo (of Steel Magnificat) mentioned that the Charismatic Renewal cult she was raised in used the same kinds of materials.

Also, her thing about the word of the Bible (also seen in LP) is weird to me. The book was written by humans and has been translated over and over again. We've got translations of translations of translations, all written by people. No Bible could ever be the word of God verbatim.
Might be veering off topic a bit, but I want to push back on this a bit. Most modern Bible translations are made using the most ancient copies available. Most contain footnotes that at least mention, and often give explanations, where one possible translation choice was made over another. It might be a moot point, though, since Christians in general don't believe the Bible to be dictated verbatim by God. Not sure if Minna's community does or not.
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dinoonthenet

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #114 on: December 03, 2022, 12:19:40 PM »
it's been a bit since i read the testimony comic, and my memory isn't the best so it may not be accurate (and i don't much feel like going through it again to check) but i can at least say i think it's a lot better than lovely people, probably because it's a lot harder to get an honest account of your own thoughts and experiences wrong than social commentary (or maybe just because it's less shocking after having already burned by LP). i get the impression that while the author's faith may have changed, a few core aspects of her worldview stayed fundamentally the same throughout her entire journey. that is, her need for simple and straightforward answers to big, complex things like society, human nature, and indeed the entire universe and its meaning, followed by a sort of "i'm better because i know better, morally" attitude. she talks a lot about listening to people who claim to have answers, like preachers and futurists, but i don't remember her talking very much at all about the philosophy of the very questions she wanted answers to. it all just felt very odd, simplified and narrow minded. i feel kind of mean saying this but it really felt like she reached some of the conclusions she did because she just wasn't interested in the alternatives, and thus didn't bother exploring them very much, which is strange considering how much of the work is ostensibly about doing exactly that.

at least she seems to be working on her social anxiety. good for her, but yeah, church isn't therapy...

tzelly

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2022, 02:48:13 PM »
I just came across the new comic a few days ago and needed time to process it. I was very disturbed by what i read, but also glad for the explanation for what happened to Minna.

I was worried that she had joined a cult and lost her mind but this shows that she has been mentally unwell for a very long time. Didn't get the help she needed and skipped out on some very impotent development stages due to self isolation.

I see echos of myself in some of her writings and how differently things could have turned out if I didn't have certain people in my life. But I also see echos of other people I knew that were not so lucky.

(trigger warning)
Spoiler: show
The way Minna explained her thoughts and understandings of how the world worked reminded me heavily of an old friend I had in high school-collage. The heavy focus on dangers that are so far out our human ability to understand and yet diving head first into the worst the world has to offer and reveling in it. Thinking so highly of themself and even the statements like "its surprising how easy it is to throw away empathy for others." and turn around with such guilt that they would lash out at themselves and others. Needing so desperately to be given a god given purpose in life. Literally burning years of her art because something whispered in her ear one day. And when everything failed to get the results she wanted; her family, god, the world... she took things too far and was gone...


All in all, I am glad Minna found something to give her some semblance of stability, and genuinely wish her the best... but also sad that she took this path due to what seems to be great lack of understanding compounding over a mountain of fear. I agree with everyone who said it, she needs therapy.

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2022, 04:08:26 PM »
Huh. I'm starting to think that maybe I should read the thing; though it doesn't seem like it's going to be pleasant to do so.

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2022, 09:19:34 PM »
OK. So I have read the thing, and no it wasn't pleasant to do so.

I have a page full of reactions done mostly going along as I read it. Spoilering it, both for length and for at least one really unpleasant thought I had along the way about something that might happen in Minna's future.

Spoiler: show
minna's new comic, do I actually want to read the thing?
   -- I think it's trying to load the whole thing at once, which is of course taking forever on my connection. -- ok, it seemed to have quit, so I hit refresh and now I think it has loaded.
   -- the artwork is simplified without any of the attention to background detail that was in SSSS. What there is of artwork isn't bad, exactly, but it's cutesy-bunnies again, and I'm not into cutesy-bunnies.
   -- she gives, in fact, an excellent argument for atheism. I wonder how she's going to argue her way back out of it again. (Spoiler: she isn't. She's not going to refer to any of it again, except the god-could-make--me-believe part.)
   -- the if-I'm-right-you-must-be-wrong attitude is there in her treatment of how she saw Christians when she was an atheist
   -- she won't show her religious grandma Redtail''s Dream because she thinks her grandma will assume she believes in Tuonela because she put it in the comic?! does she think her grandmother doesn't know what fiction is? (is she right about that?)
   -- and then she freaks out because she can't find a perfect political system.
   -- wow, that's one of the worst cases of 'if I can't have everything forever then that's the same as never having anything!' that I think I've ever seen.
      Except . . . that I''m not at all sure that's what's happening. I think maybe that's her rational mind trying to explain a bad case of clinical depression, when either she's never heard of clinical depression or she doesn't think it's real?
      -- and if that's it (which maybe it isn't, I'm not a doctor and I'm certainly not her doctor), what happens when the next round of the same thing hits her and her new belief set becomes just as senseless to her? That's a really really unpleasant thought and if that does happen I just hope she survives it.

   -- and then she says she became entirely a terrible person because she was nihilistic. And what does that seem to mean? does she steal or rape or murder or beat people up or even harass them anonymously on the net? -- naah. She laughs at people in pain -- not in their presence, virtual or otherwise. To herself, when she reads about them. She reads internet polls about awful things, and then doesn't even post that she would do them. She basks in the awful things she can find in her own brain instead of looking away from them. -- notice anything about all this?
   She's being damn careful not to actually hurt anybody but herself. She's rationalizing this as being due to avoiding possible negative consequences; but there are plenty of awful things one can do with little or no chance of actually suffering any negative consequences.
   Sorry, Minna. Ain't nothing immoral or even amoral about that at all. Betcha can't even kick a kitten when nobody human is looking.

   And her apparent idea of the entire universe of possible human religious congregations appears to be a dozen churches, all of them some flavor of Christianity. It's as if no other form of religious belief even existed anywhere in the universe. But since she finds a dozen choices way too much to deal with, maybe this is a defense mechanism?
   
   ummm, she didn't put SSSS on break to write the first bunny comic. She just cut it back to three days a week, which for anybody else would still have been more than a normal schedule, considering she was doing all parts of a really complicated comic rather than creating it with a scripter/artist/colorist team.

   "and once the Youtube algorithm noticed that I liked listening to John Piper, its "recommendations" tab led me down a big rabbit hole of other similar preachers"
      -- it never occurs to her that maybe this wasn't a Good Thing?

   "everything about social interactions is exhausting! Reading facial expressions, trying to make the correct ones back, eye contact . . .. awful!"
   " Okay, she's talking. Focus. Look in the eyes, don't smile weird, don't look angry . . . Oops, I forgot to listen."
   "my deepest secret . . . which is that I'm really a robot masquerading as a person."

   Oh Minna, I'm sorry. Not because you're not typical. Because you don't seem to know you're not alone. And because you don't seem to realize it's not essentially wrong to be you; not all people have to be the same. Yes, you're a person. Only a person could react like that.

   And -- OK. Maybe I can see why she couldn't recognize the pain that was in much of that flood of critical posts. She really doesn't know how to recognize it; and she really doesn't know how to listen. (I'm probably not going to have the faintest idea what you looked like even if I was face to face with you for an hour -- because I'd have to keep making mental notes in verbal form on individual details of appearance and that might not work anyway, but if I do that I can't listen, and I was trying to listen.)



tehta

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2022, 10:27:43 PM »
Very interesting thoughts, thorny! Especially about the degree to which Minna seems to have exaggerated her own evil in her mind. And about her lack of self-compassion.

I know it's not surprising that Minna could writing neuroatypical characters so well, so believably (as proven by the number of fans who identify with them!), but I am now a little surprised by the amount of compassion she showed them while not feeling it towards herself. She has people accept and even befriend Lalli, but she really doesn't expect to get that herself, does she?

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Re: Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2023, 12:02:50 PM »
hello hi it's me i suddenly remembered the existence of minna sundberg and wondered if the Bunny Testimonial project had been released yet. turns out yes! so i read it. because i too like reading autobiographical comics and hearing stories about how people think and how they've changed their minds over time. it's a privilege to gain insight into someone's life like this, even if it's just the fraction of it they choose to share. there's a vulnerability in that, and i think there's something powerful about understanding the diverse experiences of people around us and how even at the core of someone i fundamentally disagree with there will be a human person.

also because i like to snoop.

on one hand i'm happy for her in the sense that it seems that minna has found a community of actual real life people she might connect with, as well as reconnecting with a faith that is important to her and presumably makes her feel closer to her family. these seem like good things to me and i have no other choice than to trust her word about her own life.

i DO fundamentally disagree with her philosophies though, which also explains why LP was Like That. like, i can't criticize the comic for telling her story wrong or badly, because those are her thoughts and feelings and i don't doubt her having them, and she is not a fictional character that needs to be thematically coherent or a moral lesson. it's just very.......... sad, i think.

the feeling i get from the mere existence of this comic is an assumption that all humans are inherently awful and uncaring and will only do things for their own gain, and feels very much like, i don't know, like she wants to share this for the other sinners in the crowd. i mean, that's the feeling i got from the whole LP debacle too - it's actually a little funny to me how God pushed her so hard to make LP. truly the most important story she has to tell!!! like, i believe her when she says she has a lot to learn about connecting with people and becoming less self-centered (self-loathing is also a form of self-centering) - not in a derogatory way, but in a hopeful way, like of COURSE it's easy to think everyone else thinks the same way you do about things when you've neglected to make any meaningful connections with other people around you! it feels a lot like when certain kinds of people assume i am transgender because of internalised misogyny, and it's like no, i promise it's not because i think it's bad to be a woman. 

(i stand by what i said about LP back when, at the core the concept/idea of it isn't Awful, it just feels like Baby's First Cyberpunk/Dystopia that has only a surface understanding of why things are the way they are and how oppression works, and that it falls a little flat because it doesn't dig deep enough. i don't know if she ever WILL dig deeper, that's her perogative.)

i think it's entirely possible to spend your entire life by yourself and still live a full and meaningful life, because everyone has different wants and needs. but i would also go out on a branch and say that Most people, humans being social animals, benefit from creating meaningful connections with other people and finding communities to belong in. i get a very strong impression it's something that can help many people find joy, purpose and empathy. like................... a lot of what i, personally, got out of SSSS was community. my love for that comic is something that led me to form a lot of friendships, confidence, and inspiration - which led to a lot of growth as a person and an artist. so it DOES kinda suck to see her say that her past work is "meaningless entertainment" with no other merit. it sucks in the same way that so many people, me included, loved and still love her characters so dearly, and yet she does not seem to care for them at all anymore. i can't tell her how she's supposed to feel about her work, because feelings isn't something anyone can control, but it's a little heartbreaking that that's where we're at.

speaking of things on can't control -  i think the most fundamental disagreement i have with her faith is how she conceptualizes sin. i don't believe Having Bad Thoughts in and of itself is sinful. especially as someone who has OCD and intrusive thoughts - and i gotta say a LOT of the content in this comic reads eerily familiar to me, especially the constant fear of Dying or the way thoughts will constantly spiral to a Bad Topic - i CANNOT believe my thoughts equal actions equals I'm Bad. obviously i don't know what minna has done with her life beyond what she's shared with us, but it doesn't seem like she's actuall DONE a lot of Bad Things. not even the controversies from the SSSS heyday where i disagree with her actions or statements seem like the horrible awful sinfulness she is punishing herself for. like i understand feeling bad for having thought Bad Thoughts!!! but thoughts are immaterial!!!! it doesn't matter if you thought about doing something if you didn't actually do it, and likewise!! if you do a good thing it's great that you did it even if it was for less noble reasons!!

it also makes me sad that she felt compelled to give up everything she had going for her. maybe it was a change she wanted and needed to do, and this was just how it manifested in her life, and that's valid. i know of so many webcomic creators who, in the middle of very large projects, need to end them or change directions, just because they're burning out on it or have changed too much since they started. it was clearly a decision she kept circling back to until she made it, so there were probably underlying reasons for it. it's her life!! i just... i hope she doesn't live by the philosophy of Sacrifice and Self-punishment.

it's just very harrowing & heartbreaking to see such disdain for Humans in the belief that nobody has genuine connections and that everything is self-serving in some way, that a better society is clearly impossible because humans are just too inherently cruel and those who don't admit to being so are just lying to themself, that there must be a MEANING behind it all because if not let's just descend into lawless chaos every man for himself etc etc etc. it's not clear by the comic that she's changed her mind on this, because the impression i get is that she's returned to faith mostly to get rid of her own sins before she dies. which DOES explain, once again, why the vibe of LP was "it's worth doing good things so you go to heaven afterwards" or something. i don't remember exactly, just - there's a distinct feeling that she lacks any kind of foundational values or belief that they could exist beyond God. all of my eyebrow raising at both comics come from That distinct feeling.

so yeah no i too think therapy would have been helpful - for the social anxiety, for the Very Plausible Autism/neurodivergence, for the intrusive thought patterns. hopefully having a network in her life will be helpful as well. i hope she didn't join a cult or anything cult-adjacent!

it's been an enlightening read :V


edit: forgot to say anything about the Radicalization Through Youtube Algorithm................ i don't really have much to say about it it's just. feels almost mundane in this day and age

(i hope i'm posting in an appropriate thread, i just noticed there IS a meandering line thread but most of the relevant discussion seems to be in this one)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 12:42:34 PM by Haiz »
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