(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[moredhel]

I want my elves to be good and kind, not just noble. So, I was quite shaken reading this as a teenager. I’ve been low key thinking that maybe I was just too young and therefore didn’t understand it enough to appreciate it, but no. It really is that everything is terrible!

In this part of a story I think tolkien was inspired by greek mythology and there are depressing standards how women are treated.

[Jitter]

In this part of a story I think tolkien was inspired by greek mythology and there are depressing standards how women are treated.

Yeah. I am not much entertained by tragedy. So I guess I’m reading the wrong book

But, this bit was indeed more interesting than the list of rivers!

[Róisín]

Also ‘took her to wife’ tended to be a commonly used term in older versions of English for just ‘got married’. Consider how often the phrase turns up in old stories, and in translations to English of classical works and indeed the Christian scriptures.

[Jitter]

Róisín, it’s not jus that wording but also it’s specifically mentioned that she was “not wholly unwilling”. Which seems to indicate she was somewhat unwilling, but agreed anyways. We don’t know whether she agreed on

“O beautiful woman, come be my wife and I will respect you. Decide what you will, but you will remain in my lands forever, so it’s me or solitude”

Or

“Beautiful woman, come be my wife. If you not come willingly, I will force you”

Or

“Woman, come be my wife or I will rape and kill you on the spot”

[tehta]

"Beautiful woman, come have dinner and check out my forge."

"Ooh, at least someone around here can smith like a Noldo. And you're not bad looking... You know, my cousin Artanis has taken up with one of the locals*. Why should she have all the fun?"

Eol's rules might not sound so terrible, at first. It makes sense that he would not want his wife to be pally with the Feanorions, known murderers of the his kin. And not going outside during the day is somewhat comparable to adopting a spouse's dietary restrictions.

* In most versions, Galadriel met Celeborn after the flight of the Noldor. The only exception is the one where he was a Alqualonde Teler called Teleporno.

[Jitter]

Ha! Finally some proper elven behavior! Finrod, upon meeting with the first humans in the West, is very much ooooohhh elves ✨🤩✨🤩✨🤩 However, I have no recollection of ever having been aware that some elves can (or, at least, Finrod could) read human minds. His singing and the way it presented as visions for the humans is very impressive.

It’s nice to notice a fleeting mention of Caranthir being nice to the humans who passed in his lands!

I also note that humans took to speaking elven languages, I assume sindarin. This seems a bit surprising, it would make more sense to me that it’s easy for the elves to learn human languages if they want, but learning the finesse of elvish would be beyond most people’s short lifetimes. It doesn’t even say that theirs would be a simpler version!

Probably not very surprisingly, I also like Haleth. Sadly, it wasn’t possible to have a career and a family, of course! But at least she doesn’t get scorned for it, it’s only mentioned she remained unwed.

Fingolfin is also a proper elf lord when he storms to the gates of Angband, despite the fact it’s the end of him (or, perhaps, even more so because of it?).

Despite the lists of names (maybe the professor himself occasionally got a bit bored too? I mean, Húrin and his brother Huor, and their sons Túrin and - Tuor? Seriously?) I actually enjoyed these two chapters! Improvement!

[RanVor]

Uh, I still haven't finished chapter 18. I've had other things on my mind lately. I'm gonna have to do it today, I guess.

It’s nice to notice a fleeting mention of Caranthir being nice to the humans who passed in his lands!

Yeah, and surprising, considering who Caranthir is.

I also note that humans took to speaking elven languages, I assume sindarin. This seems a bit surprising, it would make more sense to me that it’s easy for the elves to learn human languages if they want, but learning the finesse of elvish would be beyond most people’s short lifetimes. It doesn’t even say that theirs would be a simpler version!

That's a weird assumption. Just because elves are long-lived doesn't mean their language has to be unnecessarily complicated.

Probably not very surprisingly, I also like Haleth. Sadly, it wasn’t possible to have a career and a family, of course! But at least she doesn’t get scorned for it, it’s only mentioned she remained unwed.

Maybe she just didn't find anyone suitable for her.

Fingolfin is also a proper elf lord when he storms to the gates of Angband, despite the fact it’s the end of him (or, perhaps, even more so because of it?).

Ah, yes, the most badass creature in the history of Middle-Earth. Here's a song about it:

[Róisín]

Ran, that is one powerful and interesting piece of music!

[RanVor]

What, nobody talking about how Thingol was an idiot and a terrible father?

[tehta]

I couldn't participate last week (houseguests...) and I have forgotten which chapters we're up to now. If I am reminded, I will go reread and post many notes.

I think I have already obliquely given my opinion on Thingol. And on most of the Elven Kings in general: as I said, I tend to side with the middle-managers. In Doriath, that's Beleg and Mablung, who mostly acted sensibly (but still got killed off by the morons surrounding them).

[Jitter]

This week’s conversation is on Chapter 19, Beren and Luthien. I am running late, I’m just reading it now. And I realized we should have the next chunks listed already as supposedly we are reading the next bit while lively debating C19 I’ll post more of the reading schedule shortly!

EDIT: added the rest of the reading schedule. This week’s reading is only Chapter 20, because 21 is so long it has to go alone. I suppose it’s only fair this week has a short bit as it was only listed in Saturday Although I’m sure e code as to what will be this week’s reading is not impossible to crack

[tehta]

Reading 17-18 now...

Chapter 17: Wow, Thingol's suspicions of Haleth were just as silly as she pointed out, weren't they?  Also, don't the Three Houses of Men sound a bit plagiarized from the three main kindred of Elves? The house of Beor is explicitly likened to the Noldor, and the house of Haleth is implicitly likened to some of the Sindar (wood dwelling, not so eager for lore).

Chapter 18: That's a very depressing story, all round, but also one that hides many very dramatic episodes that could be written out with more detail and become truly gripping (e.g,  the expanded version of the Fall of

Spoiler: show

Gondolin

is, at least to me, a great read). Similarly, I would love to know/read more about Huor and Hurin's time in Gondolin.
Overall, though, one thing leaps out to me: the Easterlings. Dark skinned and treacherous. Really?

[RanVor]

So, Nirnaeth Arnoediad. The elves get stomped, Fingon dies and Húrin gets captured, setting the stage for the tragedy of Túrin Turambar. Overall, not much to talk about. The battles in The Silmarillion seem to be rather unimpressive in general. Does anyone have anything to add?

[Jitter]

Sory, I’m still terribly lagging! The last I’ve read is Beren and Luthien, which has some proper elf activity again, but is also quite depressing.

I’m (kind of) glad we are doing this together because I don’t think I would finish it if we weren’t.

[RanVor]

Sory, I’m still terribly lagging! The last I’ve read is Beren and Luthien, which has some proper elf activity again, but is also quite depressing.

I’m (kind of) glad we are doing this together because I don’t think I would finish it if we weren’t.

Don't worry, I'm behind as well. I've only finished chapter 20 today, and only because it was short.