(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[RanVor]

Nothing interesting to say about this week's chapters? We have dorfs in Beleriand, the Sun, the Moon and the coming of humans!

[Jitter]

Sorry I’m on a work trip and my Silmarillion is at home! I’ll try to get to it when I go back. But you are very welcome to start for the week!

[Jitter]

Oh noes, I must whine. I’ll whine under cut.

Spoiler: show

This is so, so BORING! Why do we need to know the names of every forest, hill and river in Beleriand! Argh! *gripping hair in exasperation*

In other news, I had completely forgotten Feänor dies already at this point,

How many there are of the elves in Beleriand? They seem to make up many nations, so are they in the tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands?

And how big is this area? The translation uses a very old-fashioned uni of distance and I’m not sure how much it should make. For example on the third page of chapter 14 is says to the effect of “south or Ard-Galen there was the great highland by the name of Dorthonion, and it was XXX from east to west” (from west to east actually in translation, we always say west to east, not east to west in Finnish. Unless of course something is actually moving.)

Why does Thingol get praised as the great and magnificent Hidden King who keeps his people protected, when it’s actually Melian’s magic that does the trick?

[RanVor]

Maedhros is repentant. His brothers, not so much.

We need to know the name of every forest and river in Beleriand because it makes sense for a scholar to mention such things. And because Tolkien wanted us to.

Why does Thingol get praised as the great and magnificent Hidden King who keeps his people protected, when it’s actually Melian’s magic that does the trick?

I'd like to give you some rational and logical reason, but honestly, it's probably because of sexism.

[tehta]

Chapter Fourteen: proof that a picture is often worth a thousand words. All we needed was a map (which also exists, so not sure why we have the text, too).

There are several possible estimates for the number of Elves in Beleriand. I used to know their details, long ago, but now I just remember that even the smallest one was > one million. Most were not Noldor, however. (In general, reading the musings here keeps giving me a sense of deja-vu, like 'oh, I remember researching this once; it was a lot of work, pity I forgot what I found'. But the good news was that, if I was doing the research for a story, there was usually a wide-enough range of interpretations that I could pick and choose the one I wanted.)

I think Dorthonion is 180 miles east-to-west, if you translate the leagues. But of course on some maps it appears bigger. (Polish also has it in the e-w direction, btw, or rather 'sunrise to sunset': our directions are named that way, also 'half day' for south and 'half night' for north)

Regarding Thingol, yes, sexism. But also, there is a bit of a tendency to describe several of the Elvish rulers as the wisest and tallest. I remember Turgon in particular. (I do not judge his wisdom highly, myself.)

I find Feanor's death both personally satisfying (because ha!) and narratively odd. Oh, and it's possible that Maglor was repentant too.

Spoiler: show

(I think the Silm has him be the one to save the kids later? Although I know it was Maedhros in some other versions. And doesn't he argue against stealing the jewels at the very end?)

[RanVor]

Regarding Thingol, yes, sexism. But also, there is a bit of a tendency to describe several of the Elvish rulers as the wisest and tallest. I remember Turgon in particular. (I do not judge his wisdom highly, myself.)

Spoiler: show

Turgon's wisdom was mostly in doing what Ulmo told him to do. Which can actually be considered pretty wise in context, since it was not listening to the Valar that started the whole mess in the first place.

[tehta]

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Turgon's wisdom was mostly in doing what Ulmo told him to do. Which can actually be considered pretty wise in context, since it was not listening to the Valar that started the whole mess in the first place.

I absolutely agree that 

Spoiler: show

following Ulmo's advice was wise (and rare among Finwions).

But

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he only did it up to a point! When Tuor shows up and, in the voice of Ulmo, tells him it's time to leave, he "[becomes] proud", and decides that he knows Gondolin's strength better than a Vala, and ends up listening to his creepy/traumatized nephew Maeglin instead of to Ulmo's messenger. Especially right before the Fall of Gondolin, when Tuor advises evacuation, and Maeglin (and Salgant) convince Turgon to try holding the city.

I do also appreciate that Turgon

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approved of his daughter's marriage the obviously worthy but mortal Tuor, and did not suddenly decide to set Tuor weird impossible tasks, the way Thingol did.

Sorry, spoilers are hard to avoid...

[Jitter]

Ran and tehta, I think we all (at least all who are discussing) are rereading. So I vote for more discussion rather than strict adherence to spoiler rules. Especially if you can keep it under spoiler cuts, all is well! And if not, still all is well although perhaps slightly less well than in the first alternative

[tehta]

I moved the spoilers around. I hope that's better. (For some reason I thought we were reading 14 and 15, so

Spoiler: show

Turgon's early dealings with Ulmo

were not a

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spoiler

).

Of course, 15 is actually VERY INTERESTING so surely Jitter would have mentioned many bits from it. We are about to enter a whole sequence of chapters that I, for one, enjoy!

[RanVor]

Of course, 15 is actually VERY INTERESTING so surely Jitter would have mentioned many bits from it. We are about to enter a whole sequence of chapters that I, for one, enjoy!

Oh yes, next week's chapters are very interesting indeed.

[Jitter]

Oh yes, next week's chapters are very interesting indeed.

I most certainly hope it is! I almost gave up with 13&14, well especially 14. I had to take two breaks to read a bit over 20 pages   

[tehta]

Quick thoughts on re-reading the next two chapters!

• There's a loooot of sexism here (even in minor details, e.g., why can't Idril inherit Turgon's throne?) but it's in contrast to the female characters having clearly defined characters, desires and agency, and (in Galadriel's and Melian's case) being obviously at least as intelligent and involved in the politics of the Age as the men. To make things more tolerable for myself, i prefer to imagine that some of the sexism was added by the historians. E.g., Maeglin wasn't left as regent during time of war because that was Idril's job!
• I also have a very specific headcanon I like, that Galadriel didn't sit around twiddling her thumbs during the First Age, but established her own Hidden Kingdom which was actually a proper secret. (Unlike the Hidden City of Gondolin, which was clearly common gossip.)
• I hate the rapiness of the Aredhel/Eol story. 'Not wholly unwilling', and the random restrictions placed on her by Eol. One can, of course read this as the writer's interpretation, and assume all kinds of possibilities -- for example, that she was wholly willing, but then got bored, which seems in character for her. (I feel a bit bad treating canon so, but, well... good stories don't need to be rapey. Having her choose her own doom makes for a better tragedy, in my eyes.)
• What I do like in these chapters is all the complicated relationships between the various Noldor, part-Noldor, and Sindar. I think we talked about how Thingol might respond to the kin-slaying earlier? Well, now we know.
• And the Greek Tragedy/dark saga feel of the Maeglin chapter. All these people, acting according to their natures, bringing about a very dark conclusion...
• Hmm. Now did Quenya manage to stick around as the language of scholars when people weren't allowed to speak it? Were there no Telerin/Sindarin scholars?

[RanVor]

I also have a very specific headcanon I like, that Galadriel didn't sit around twiddling her thumbs during the First Age, but established her own Hidden Kingdom which was actually a proper secret. (Unlike the Hidden City of Gondolin, which was clearly common gossip.)

That's a pretty neat idea.

[...] that she was wholly willing, but then got bored, which seems in character for her. [...]

That's how I read it. Eol clearly wasn't the most pleasant person around, though.

And the Greek Tragedy/dark saga feel of the Maeglin chapter. All these people, acting according to their natures, bringing about a very dark conclusion...

Maeglin wasn't as much of an a-hole as I remembered. He was still kind of an a-hole, though. I agree with the Greek tragedy comparison, it's very apt.

[moredhel]

Hmm. Now did Quenya manage to stick around as the language of scholars when people weren't allowed to speak it? Were there no Telerin/Sindarin scholars?

This is one of the things that could be interpreted in many ways. But all interpretations that come to my mind are at least a little strange in the context of the story.

[Jitter]

I was also disgusted about the “took her to his wife”. Even though this here version says “not fully unwilling”, that hardly seems sufficient amount of consent! It’s also contradictory, when Aredhel clearly has agency in that Turgon can only ask her not to go, but doesn’t really have power over her. And yet the next minute she’s something to be taken when Eöl finds her beautiful.

Tolkiengateway.net mentions several versions of the story in Tolkien’s writings. In one version it’s clear that Eöl took Aredhel as his wife by force. On the other hand there is an essay stating that sexual assault is very rare among elves and “an Elf can reject bodily life to thwart sexual assault”. So yeah, Aredhel clearly consented as is demonstrated by her lack of dying to put a stop to the wife-taking…

I want my elves to be good and kind, not just noble. So, I was quite shaken reading this as a teenager. I’ve been low key thinking that maybe I was just too young and therefore didn’t understand it enough to appreciate it, but no. It really is that everything is terrible!