Mages & Magic of SSSS

[Jitter]

This topic was split from the Last page chitchat thread, but is meant to be general discussion about magic and mages in the SSSS universe. Both canon and speculation about the two known magic systems as well as speculation about possible other systems or combinations of the existing ones are welcome here.

Discussion about real-world magic has its own thread here, which I will add here when I find it. References to real current and historical mythology is ok here of course with or as reference to SSSS lore.

EDIT I can’t find the real world magic and Earth religions thread at all, not on active nor archived threads! Anyways for discussion not related to SSSS at all, a separate thread should be started.


Vulpes, I don’t think it’s fair to say you did or did not misunderstand. So far it’s speculation only, either way. And the information given on the Kade infopage may be hazy or completely erroneous - Ensi was firstborn Rash survivor and likely a prominent member of the Noita society, yet had only little knowledge of Kades, or she would have been more wary. This is only 11 years after that. The Kades remain largely a mystery, there couldn’t have been very many overall.

Apropos of Ensi, we all take it for granted that she was a powerful and important mage. But do we actually know? She was clearly a leader figure at Toivosaari, but that may be for reasons other than power in magic.

[Tarnagh]

Apropos of Ensi, we all take it for granted that she was a powerful and important mage. But do we actually know? She was clearly a leader figure at Toivosaari, but that may be for reasons other than power in magic.

This could have been simply because of her age - she was born during the first month or so of the Rash. Because of that, she was probably one of the first, if not the first mage in Finland. Or at least, the first mage that the group of survivors around her knew about. She'd have been a leader in her community simply because of her age whether or not she was a mage. The fact that she was probably the first mage would only add to that.

Edit: But that wouldn't mean she knew much about kades other than in general terms. For all her age and experience, kades aren't common. I'd say not many mages aside from the ones the kade has caught know much more about them than "don't make eye contact" and "here are some general guidelines to kill one."

[thorny]

When Ensi comments on the masking spell, she says something along the lines of, "How did she know how to do that? I don't know how to do that!" which implies to me that Ensi herself, at least, thought she knew a great deal of what was known about magery -- she thought that if such a masking spell was possible, she should have known it.

Maybe she just had an inflated opinion of herself; that I don't know. It's not really the impression I get otherwise of her character, but we only got a limited amount of information about her.

ETA: It's true she didn't seem to know that it was a warning sign when she asked about the package Lalli had recognized as suspicious, and the person she thought was still her good friend said 'Look into my eyes!' before answering. But as others have said, maybe nobody knew (or knows) much about kades; she might still be relatively skilled compared to most other mages.

[JoB]

Maybe she just had an inflated opinion of herself; that I don't know. It's not really the impression I get otherwise of her character, but we only got a limited amount of information about her.

We know that she wasn't the only senior mage in Toivosaari, that she was allowed to train other mages, and even allowed to drop one pupil (Onni) when a "better" one (Lalli) became available. Finnish mages' Rule of Two or not, if there was "inflated opinion" involved, it would IMHO have to have been the entire settlement's.

[Jitter]

Yeah. I want to point out that I too think Ensi is a powerful mage! But it occurs to me we don’t have anything in canon that actually proves it. She would be an important mage, certainly within her settlement and in its environs, simply be the merit of being one of the first ones.

Based on what Onni says about the original Kade soul, he seems to be aware that some people who were adults at the time the Rash hit became mages at some point after that. So Ensi wasn’t necessarily The first, but certainly one of the earliest ones. She could well be an important symbol and beacon of hope as well, having been born during the worst of it, surviving, and going on to become an immune mage. Here mere existence would have given some reason to believe that there will be tomorrows.

I agree that her comment about the masking spell indicates she thinks she would know, if it were a normal spell. It could also mean that she just thinks herself much more knowledgeable than Hilja, which could be a lot but could be a little. We know even less about Hilja than we know about Ensi. On the other hand, Hilja was patrolling alone, despite being non-immune, which leads me to to think she would also have been a noita of power.

Actually I don’t think there’s much (anything?) in the comic itself saying whether there are differences in the power between noitas at all. There is a little something in Minna’s blog somewhere, and answering a question she once explained a bit. It is a factor of both innate potential and training. So there is a limit to how strong someone can become, but the realized strength is a function of training and dedication within that bracket. According to her, Onni is naturally stronger than Lalli, but especially he’s more dedicated, more motivated and focusing on his training, all of which makes him clearly stronger. Now what little we have seen of Ensi definitely speaks of dedication, motivation and focus.

Still, it seems to me we are all looking at Ensi and seeing the same archetypal character! We appear to have very similar ideas about what she’s like, as a mage and as a person, despite having gotten only tiny glimpses of her, and those through the eyes of 8 year old Lalli looking at his grandmother/master. Goes to show the power and usefulness of archetypes!

Oh I would love to know more about the magic system. Preferably in the form of proper explanations! But then, I’m an engineer

Incidentally this discussion has gone a bit away from the current pages. Should we move some of this to a new thread, something like Magic and mages of SSSS?

[thegreyarea]

Interesting discussion, indeed.
For all we know Ensi seems to be an experienced mage and have some proeminence in her community, and she supposed herself way more capable then Hilja. But that's all.
And I agree that she might have been quite relevant in those first decades when people was still trying to survive, cope with all the loss and find reasons to hope.
I also think that a topic is a good idea, but I'd name it Mages & Magic of SSSS (just as a wink at Dungeons & Dragons) 

[Róisín]

Sounds like a good idea to me, it would be a fascinating discussion. I am no expert on Finnish magic, but in the systems of magic more familiar to me there are concepts similar to that of the kade.

[Tarnagh]

According to her, Onni is naturally stronger than Lalli, but especially he’s more dedicated, more motivated and focusing on his training, all of which makes him clearly stronger. Now what little we have seen of Ensi definitely speaks of dedication, motivation and focus.

I'm not sure how fair that is to Lalli in terms of his potential strength. He was only eight when his grandmother was taken. Ensi had trained Onni for many more years than Lalli. When would Finnish mage training begin, anyhow? I doubt it'd be much younger than Lalli was in that flashback scene. Any child being trained would have to have the physical endurance to keep up with the adult out in the field. Seven or eight years, probably. Five is unlikely but possible. At eight years old Lalli would have had *at best* three years under his grandmother's teachings. And the things she said to him in the flashback scene make that unlikely. If Lalli had already had a year or two of training with her, Ensi wouldn't have been telling him things like "Leave that alone, if you disobey me I'll leave you behind."

Onni got more years of training from Ensi, of course he'd be stronger than Lalli. After the destruction of their village, Onni never left the walls of Keuruu (spelling?) again and it doesn't appear that anyone continued Lalli's training very much after that, or if they did the mages were no where nearly as strong as Ensi had been. She could have taught Lalli far more than a weaker mage could. I think.

[Jitter]

Tarnagh, Keuruu seems to have some sort of “mage corps”, based on Onni having a job as military mage and a specific uniform. Again, we don’t know much about this. Nevertheless they could well have arranged some training to both of the young Hotakainens. Onni may have even trained under another mentor. And it seems reasonable to expect that Lalli got trained by Onni, to an extent.

But, what I wrote above is Word of Minna. Onni’s innate strength, or the potential he can reach with training and dedication, is higher than Lalli’s. This is not to say Lalli is weak or that he would be weak if he trained properly. Again it’s just a comparison between Onni and Lalli. Onni is a lot stronger now, due to several factors: his innate strength to begin with, his dedication to magery and focus on studying, and his age allowing him more experience in any case. Even if Lalli did decide to concentrate on becoming a mage instead of a scout, and worked really hard, he wouldn’t become quite as strong as Onni. Whether he would be just a little less powerful, or far behind, we don’t know. Nor will we ever, as he seems more interested in being a scout with some magery on the side (all the spells we have seen him actively do are things useful for a scout - protection, check a large area, defend against an attack upon himself and ease communication).

Strictly speaking we also don’t know whether Onni would be considered an average, strong or very strong mage because we know even less about any others. But to me it seems safe to assume, he’s pretty badass as the mages go - summoning the Kokko to take down an entire horde of trolls and murderghosts can’t be an everyday feat, or Finland would have a lot more safe land

I also think that his stunt was even more difficult because the summoning was to a distant location (even though having his kin there would likely have helped), and because Onni himself was in Sweden and thus out of the realm of his gods. He does, after all, belong into the forest. This is just speculation but for me it’s headcanon level

[Tarnagh]

But, what I wrote above is Word of Minna. Onni’s innate strength, or the potential he can reach with training and dedication, is higher than Lalli’s.

Strictly speaking we also don’t know whether Onni would be considered an average, strong or very strong mage because we know even less about any others. But to me it seems safe to assume, he’s pretty badass as the mages go - summoning the Kokko to take down an entire horde of trolls and murderghosts can’t be an everyday feat, or Finland would have a lot more safe land

I also think that his stunt was even more difficult because the summoning was to a distant location (even though having his kin there would likely have helped), and became Onni himself was in Sweden and thus out of the realm of his gods. He does, after all, belong into the forest. This is just speculation but for me it’s headcanon level

Fair enough, to all of that. I did miss the bit about how Minna had said this in regards to the two of them. I guess she'd know.

[Suominoita]

I think there's more than just power here. Things like how much energy something takes of a mage.
Experience, knowledge and reputation (among the spirits and gods) all play a factor. Getting those takes time and effort.
Experience -- well, since Onni decided to stay put for years Lalli has at least caught up with Onni.
Knowledge -- Onni certainly has much more of this.
Reputation -- well... depends who you ask, I guess.

[Jitter]

You are absolutely right, Suominoita! Being a prominent mage doesn’t necessarily require one to be strong in magic at all.

In the SSSS case, where the magic flows from the gods (and possibly other supernatural entities- I very much hope the Finnish noitas work with nature spirits) it could be that the individual mages don’t have differences in power at all. But according to Minna they do. And she’s the topmost god in the universe so we’ll have to take her word for it.

Unless we want to write fanfiction about it.

[moredhel]

In the SSSS case, where the magic flows from the gods (and possibly other supernatural entities

The Kade shows some magic abilities. So I think there are either some really weird (mad?) gods or there are other supernatural entities acting as a source for trollified magic.

[Suominoita]

You are absolutely right, Suominoita! it could be that the individual mages don’t have differences in power at all. But according to Minna they do. And she’s the topmost god in the universe so we’ll have to take her word for it.

It depends on what is meant with power. The strength of the Luonto is different, though a weak one can be improved by enduring hardships and other stuff (Those with strong ones to start with probably don't bother, just let experience come up). Also, knowledge is power. Reputation comes to play when you ask the supernatural to do stuff for you. Lalli has it good with Kuutar. Onni's dealings with Kokko and the Swan, well... could be better.

[thorny]

Is that due to Onni in particular, though, or to the natures of Kokko and the Swan?