Author Topic: Writers' Corner  (Read 54389 times)

Nimphy

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2016, 03:11:21 AM »
How do you people even manage, I literally can't begin a story from the plot. It HAS to begin from characters, and then I get stuck because I have characters and a setting but... I can't plot. I literally don't know how to write an interesting plot.

On other news, I was re-reading an old CampNaNo project and.
Why do my violent and/or dramatic scenes between characters sound like the characters doing inappropriate things, like really, I'm just trying to get them to look like normal people fighting or having a complete breakdown when they see a mutilated body or something like that.
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Mélusine

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #151 on: March 12, 2016, 04:06:15 AM »
On other news, I was re-reading an old CampNaNo project and.
Why do my violent and/or dramatic scenes between characters sound like the characters doing inappropriate things, like really, I'm just trying to get them to look like normal people fighting or having a complete breakdown when they see a mutilated body or something like that.
Hey, Nimphy, I think you're approximatively the same age as me when an adult had explained to me why this couldn't happen like that in my story, and that needed to change, and that too. Part of the "why" had made me blush like I never had blushed. I was too young. I sounded strange, or inappropriate, because I was young and in a lack of life experience. (Which doesn't means you have to fight or see a mutilated body !) BUT I was writing, and it could only become better :) Write. Don't lose faith. It will become better.
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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #152 on: March 12, 2016, 04:20:48 AM »
How do you people even manage, I literally can't begin a story from the plot. It HAS to begin from characters, and then I get stuck because I have characters and a setting but... I can't plot. I literally don't know how to write an interesting plot.

One of the good things about life experience is that you collect more of it everyday. I know the feeling of being worried about not being able to plot or make people have break-downs because I don't know things- or I did, anyway, but then I got older. The thing to do is commit yourself to your craft and, this is just a personal strategy, but I tend to look at everything as writing experience?

Nurse can't find a vein when giving me a blood test and stabs me three times in the same arm with a needle? Writing material with some genuine experience behind it. Stuck in Panama City for 18 hours while a storm puts Atlanta airport out of commission? Writing experience! Friends do something awful to me? Well at least now I know what an emotional low feels like and I can write about it more convincingly!
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Róisín

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2016, 05:07:24 AM »
Nimphy: what both Melusine and OwlsG0 said, plus a saying a much-published writer friend likes to quote: 'Every event in life is grist to the writer's mill'. As OwlsG0 said, you can extrapolate from a lesser event to a greater. Another writer I know took the real experience of a puppy dying in her arms and used it in a later novel in which a child dies. A young person has hopefully not yet acquired the experience of life to write horrors from first-hand experience, and it shows in their work.

And yeah, the only way to become a writer is to write. It may be a truism, but that doesn't mean it's wrong! Douglas Stewart, a great playwright and poet, did his best work at a time when he was working at a soul-destroying job, and each day when he came home from work he would set aside one hour in which to write, no matter what else was going on in his life. He kept to it, even if all he did by the end of the hour was to cross out what he had written the day before. By the end of that period of his life he had produced several masterpieces, including the radio play 'The Fire on the Snow'.

Ideas, even great ideas, are only a part of it. An inspired idea can be the soul of a story, but having the command of language gives you the tools to build a body for that soul to inhabit. And if you ever plan to make a living as a writer, the other two biggies are time and discipline. Sure, it's not impossible to produce a great book in a mad forty-eight-hour splurt of writing, (consider Kerouac's 'On The Road'), but it's very, very rare. Most great books or stories or works of art are, as the saying goes, 'one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration'.

See, writing isn't just an art. It's a craft as well. One needs to understand the tools and the rules and the limitations, even if one plans to later discard them. The most effective free verse (think Shakespeare, Eliot, Pound, Marquis, Hopkins) works far better because those authors understood and were proficient at patterned verse before they started in breaking the rules. (By way of horrid contrast, try John Kydd and Bridh Hancock.)
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Nimphy

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2016, 05:32:49 AM »
Pfft, I just realized I might've sounded actually frustrated. Naah, maybe I'd love to have been born an all-knowing writer, but the journey is interesting. I'm not good yet, I'm learning, I have been since I was five, and yeah, sometimes it's frustrating, but it's definitely worth it. Cringing over old stories and those "wait how did I write that, that was brilliant" moments, they're both equally precious.

Piney, yep, that would be the problem. Little innocent me writes things, growing-up me realizes that the world is not such a simple place and things must be corrected.

OwlsG0 personal experience is useful for scenes, sure, but I don't see how it can really help me form a real plot, with a series of events that connect and lead to something and aaaahh what is even a plot.

Most of the time the problem with me is not "I don't have a plot" because one can always go for the standard "hey let's save the world" plot if they don't really have any ideas, but it's more... It doesn't fit my setting and characters, it's not good enough for them?

Róisín, making a living as a writer has been my dream for, oh, just about forever, but things happen and people try to discourage others from petty art, so... Heh, we'll talk about that in the future. For now, I just write for pleasure and to grow better.
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Mélusine

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2016, 07:44:03 AM »
Piney, yep, that would be the problem. Little innocent me writes things, growing-up me realizes that the world is not such a simple place and things must be corrected.
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Róisín

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2016, 09:50:58 AM »
Nimphy: there have been times in my life when I have earned all or most of my living as a writer, but that wasn't writing fiction. At least not my own! When I was much younger, and newly widowed with five little kids, and desperately looking for any way to earn a living that would let me work from home, I did several stints of working as a combination of translator and ghostwriter for somebody who had a truly fascinating tale to tell of their experiences, but who was firstly not a native English speaker and secondly was a terrible writer. The result was some books that sold very well, and for me, being able to feed my household for some time. Apart from that, most of what I wrote and sold was technical articles of a botanical or geological nature for museum journals and the like, or lifestyle pieces to do with gardening or food, especially wild food and foraging, because that was an area in which I had expertise, and articles about nature, bushcraft, wilderness survival and the like.

I had a few short stories published, mostly SF, some song lyrics and a good deal of poetry, and scored a few poetry awards which, again, kept my household going for awhile. But the main thing about earning a living as a writer was being flexible, and being able to write to a topic, as newspaper and magazine writers do. Certainly we have on the Forum some people who have been full-time newspaper reporters; they may be able to explain more. I've worked for a newspaper, but far more often as a proofreader, back in the days when proofreaders were people rather than machines as they now are. And a lot of my writing, especially the nature stuff, was done by hand or on a small portable typewriter when I was actually living in wilderness, or on small farms in the backbeyond - no computers or writing programmes then, partly because it was before small computers, often because no electricity!

It's possible to write a bestseller first time, to pull off a Kerouac or a J.K. Rowling, but far more writers have a lengthy 'journeyman' stage in their careers, where they are working at something else to make their main living, while gradually building up a body of paying work. At least nowadays the online world makes earning a living as a writer easier, and cuts out most of the middlepeople who skimmed off most of the profit from a writer's work. Though there is also a good deal less quality control!

We've all seen how hard Minna works to make a living from what I believe is one of the better webcomics available, and I know several people who sell their work online, that is, they have a website from which the book can be downloaded for a fee. Of those people, the result ranges from 'small but steady income' (that's the textbook on permaculture gardening in the wet tropics), to 'a random few dollars here and there' (that's the modern poet). But it can be done.

Anyway, the point of all that was that surviving as a writer is possible, but the only way to get there is to write. And keep writing, refining your techniques and improving your tools as you go.

And about plot: plot can spring from events: 'in this situation, with these people, what can I have happen that will make the characters grow and interact in interesting ways? And if I change one element, say she catches a bus instead of flying, how does that change the story? What if all her family dies while she is on that bus? How would that change what she does next?' Or the story can be character-and-situation driven: 'being himself, and being put in that situation, what else could he possibly do?'. But to do the last one, you really need to understand your characters, and to have fleshed them out at least a bit.
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Yuuago

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2016, 01:08:05 PM »
How do you people even manage, I literally can't begin a story from the plot. It HAS to begin from characters, and then I get stuck because I have characters and a setting but... I can't plot. I literally don't know how to write an interesting plot.

I have this "can't think of a plot" problem too - at least with original fiction. Hard to figure out why, but in my case I think it might just be that I'm a little bit uptight and reluctant to allow my imagination to do whatever it wants, so the end result is that I can't think of anything. But it gets easier over time, I think. Especially when I read stuff in the genre that I want to write.

...And then there's fanfiction, where coming up with something isn't so much of a problem: decide the characters, plug friends for ideas they want to see, and then go. ;p The difficult part is getting the energy to actually write it.
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princeofdoom

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2016, 03:23:50 PM »
Nymphy a good thing to know about plotting from the character side is that, viewed that way, plot is just the characters, their wants/needs/goals and various obstacles to the characters achieving what they want. Sometimes those obstacles are themselves (having conflicting wants, or having some fault that makes their goal harder), sometimes it's other people with conflicting goals or views, sometimes it's a force of nature/god/the universe itself.

If you know what your characters care about and can put something in their way to stop them getting there for a while, then you can plot.
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Aierdome

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2016, 04:46:23 PM »
(long post alert)
That's some fascinating discussion you've sparkled, Nymphy, I've been reading with interest.

For me, it's quite similar to what princofdoom said. When I have an idea for a setting and characters, I start to think of "What would X do when faced with Y" rather than "what's the obstacle/what are they trying to achieve".  For an example to explain this, in a story I've been writing a while back (in great simplification):
Spoiler: A bit of rambling • show

The Prince feels that he can't really match the King's accomplishments, so he sets off into the wilderness to accomplish Great Deeds;
The Enemy notices his chance to hurt the King he hates, so he kidnaps the Prince;
The Prince disappears, so the Princess, the Prince's betrothed, is worried and wants to set out to find him;
The King is worried for his son's fate, but can't leave the capital, so he lets the Princess have her expedition, provided she doesn't go alone;
The Necromancer is asked for help and is quite fond of the Prince, so he decides to accompany the Princess;
The Enemy notices that there's a ploy to recover the Prince, so he throws obstacles in Princess' and others' way while he's bringing his Evil Plan closer and closer to fruition;
The Monster hates the Enemy and wants to help the Necromancer, but fears what the Princess will say of him, so he stays in the shadows and provides help from there;
The Princess, seeing something attacking her and some other force she can't understand, grows more and more worried and eventually makes her party go undercover, cutting them off from King's help;

And so on, and so forth. The gist of it is that rather than having a plot of "a bunch of people set out to save the world", for some of us it's better to figure out what characters would do, going by their personalities, and then think of how the outside world and other characters would react to this: rather than what they do, write why they do. In other words, not "they set out to save the world", but "they don't want to see their loved ones die because of X". I don't want to look like I'm pretending to be some great expert - or a good writer, for that matter - but all in all, I feel like the stories of "why" are much more "natural", realistic and overall more interesting than "what".

For another advantage of writing this way, it will force you to make your characters act more naturally. Rather than in terms of "what would advance the plot", you think of "what would they do at this point". Assume your plot requires the character to steal a diamond, while the guy/gal has been set up as a honest and crime-abhoring person. If they just steal the diamond with no moral quandaries, readers will cry foul (I'm sure we've all faced this in at least one book we've read); on the other hand, if the character decides that the theft is for the greater good, and that the person they steal from is a despicable criminal - and even then has pangs of guilt - the theft will seem far more natural, because the character has an actual motive beyond "it pushes the plot forth".

To get back to one of your previous posts and step on the borders of this topic, as to "why characters don't seem to react appropriately": it could be, if I may guess, because you as a reader are not in their heads as much as you were as a writer. I've had this moments: the scene I write is downright heartbreaking when I'm writing it, but when I return to it later, it sounds impossibly cheesy and makes all the characters look like they're overacting. The thing is, while I feel those emotions while writing, I don't feel the need to put them down "on paper" because, duh, I know this scene makes me feel like this or that. To make reader-me feel the same emotions later, I have to write all that I feel - make a report on my mental state, if you may - or else the connection the writer-me and the character had is absent.

Hence why I think writing "why" is better than "what". Every reaction character has sounds more appropriate when we as readers are given the state of mind, the reasoning behind the actions, the thoughts at the moment. The character suddenly starting to scream incoherently at the sight of a dead body can look cheesy; a character who's on the verge of panic, unable to think too clearly and absolutely certain that there's a killer in the house with them (regardless of whether it's true or not) is absolutely justified in breaking down into screaming when suddenly faced with a dead body.
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Róisín

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #160 on: March 12, 2016, 06:53:18 PM »
Aierdome, you definitely have the right of it there!

Another thing to bear in mind is the writers' adage about what makes a good story (as well as a good newspaper article). Kipling phrased it most memorably:
'I keep six honest serving men,
They've taught me all I know.
Their names are 'What' and 'Where' and 'When'
And 'How' and 'Why' and 'Who'.'

If you can work the answers to those questions into your story, not so much as lecturing the reader but as in-story exposition, your tale will flow much more smoothly, and the reader's willing suspension of disbelief will not suddenly run aground  on questions like: 'Wait! Why is John suddenly in Albuquerque when he was in New York, and why is his hair green?'. If you have the character of John sufficiently well realised, it will be obvious that being John, he could not refuse an invitation to his horrible sister's Halloween party, and that Mary being her pranking self in the presence of a Chekhov's bottle of dye, could not do other than dye his hair green while he slept.

Aierdome also has a very good point in that conveying the character's state of mind can give a minor plot point or item major significance. In Hitchcock's take on one of Hodgson's short stories, there is a scene where a woman finds a little discoloured patch on her pillow, and despite being established as a calm, competent and sensible person, reacts with panic terror and bottles of lysol, (it's the 1800s, okay?), which seems weird and out of character until you put together her earlier speculations and see that she has figured out that whatever is making people disappear is some sort of lichen-like infection that gradually turns people into shambling nocturnal grey sponge things. I have wondered whether Hodgson was one of Minna's influences.
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Lazy8

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2016, 07:49:53 PM »
So here's a worldbuilding idea I've actually been batting around for quite some time and only just now remembered / got the urge to ramble about: a society where everyone, once they've reached a certain age, is somehow magically forced to experience all of the pain that they've caused others over the course of their lifetime (as in, everything that they can actually be held responsible for). Nobody knows why exactly this started (after some time people began to attribute it to a god or gods, and they may be right, but nobody knows), but it first came about in a culture where interpersonal violence had reached a peak, and there was a lot of war and death. Well, when this first started it happened to everyone over a certain age, and a very large portion of the population went insane or even outright died. Nowadays humanity has largely recovered and established a much more stable and peaceful society, but it still continues to happen to everyone on their coming of age, leaving a sharp divide between childhood and adulthood. The extreme consequences of death and insanity are considerably rarer, but not vanishingly so, and there are some who never make it to adulthood - in an average-sized village, every generation will remember at least one person who didn't survive to become an adult. Even those who do are often haunted to various degrees.

So the story I'd want to tell would be from the point of view of someone who's just getting ready for their coming-of-age, and would follow them from the moment they first start to genuinely worry about it, to going through it, to when they finally come out the other side. Some themes I'd like to explore are questions of justice and of empathy. The only real problem I have is exactly the opposite of my usual: I don't have any characters! When I'm writing a fanfiction more often than not OCs just waltz into the plot as they please and declare their intention to stay there, but now that I'm finally thinking of something original all I can come up with for characters are bland cutouts.
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Dverghamrar

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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2016, 08:03:32 PM »
Lazy8, I think you might have touched on the solution yourself. :) Maybe, just as a practice or something for fun to do for yourself at the moment, play around with this premise as a fanfic. Perhaps this is something that's happened after Year 0, for example, something that's experienced all over the known world or only in one country? And then the OCs will come trickling in. It'll be a nice little trap to get those OCs to show themselves! Hope this helps!

Also: what a neat idea! :D
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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2016, 08:46:12 PM »
Lazy8 > I don't know if that helps but, this would be a very good opportunity to play with a character who's doing bad things for good reasons, whose actions are well meaning but misguided, to explore the discrepancy that can exists between "acting in a good/right/moral way" and "not causing unnecessary suffering".
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Re: Writers' Corner
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2016, 08:47:17 PM »
Lazy8 > I don't know if that helps but, this would be a very good opportunity to play with a character who's doing bad things for good reasons, whose actions are well meaning but misguided, to explore the discrepancy that can exists between "acting in a good/right/moral way" and "not causing unnecessary suffering".

Reading Worm might help in that regard, if you have time.
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