Author Topic: Global Mythologies  (Read 33273 times)

Mereven

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Global Mythologies
« on: September 09, 2014, 08:08:03 AM »
So, after learning what a Tural and a táltos horse was from a rather divergent conversation on one of the comic's comment sections, it seemed a good idea to create a thread for all things mythological: stories, characters or creatures, traditions. 

Apparently, I am not alone in loving cultural legends and myths :P

So, feel free to share your culture's stories here :).  Even if it is really well-known locally.... chances are good that the rest of us have never heard of it and are very interested to learn :P.

Mereven

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2014, 08:08:54 AM »
I'll start it ;)

A few years ago in England I mentioned the Bunyip to a group of people, and was really surprised that no one there had heard of it.  This creature is basically our (Australian) version of the bogieman: this thing lives in waterholes (or billabongs), creeks and in mud, and if you go outside, especially after dark and very especially anywhere near the bush (wilderness/scrub land; all native trees and undergrowth), the Bunyip will catch you, carry you off to his billabong and eat you.  In some versions the Bunyip will eat your body but not your soul: so your soul will hang around the bunyip's lair for the rest of eternity.  It's appearance depends on who you talk to, but growing up I was told that it was very tall, covered in a dark, slimy mess of dead leaves, sticks and mud, and it had pointed teeth that were as long as my arm each. 

There is only one Bunyip in the world, but it can really materialize anywhere where there is moisture and darkness, and it never ages or dies.

This is something we told to children to keep them at home after dark ;).

Hedge14

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 08:49:59 AM »
I love, love Finnish Mythology. Once a while I think about turning pagan, because of that. All those poems are so beautiful! But I also like different beliefs and habits that people had in old times.
For example:

Did you know that Finnish families had "house snake" to which they would sacrifice milk and other things? In return the snake would protect house and cattle.

The snake thing is part of Finnish believes "haltijausko". Haltija was supernatural creature that helped, guarded or protects people or something else. For example, a forest haltija (metsänhaltija) would protect woods and all that lived in the forest. Haltija were not always helpful. Haltija of iron could harm people by blades. Haltija of fire could burn things and people. All haltija should be respected, because when they are mad they can be quite dangerous...

My love for Finnish Mythology is reason I read aRTD and now SSSS. I don't usually read comics at all.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:17:18 PM by Hedge14 »

OrigamiOwl

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 09:04:12 AM »

A few years ago in England I mentioned the Bunyip to a group of people, and was really surprised that no one there had heard of it.

You beat me to the Bunyip!

The Bunyip I was told about (from my mum, who grew up around the Kununurra area) differs from yours slightly, and it probably isn't sticking to the Proper Story, hers was a 'story' to stop kids venturing too close to dams, billabongs and creeks and drowning...
The appearance is roughly the same, and it's apparent immortality too.
My childhood Bunyip could apparently get you in the daytime too (probably linked to the drowning worries) by jumping out of the water or behind a shrub, snatching you and dragging you into or under the water, or into an underground creek hole and into the earth ;__; and there were multiple Bunyips- one for each waterway or dam.

Kept me terrified for about seven years until I convinced myself the animal skeleton on the roadside was the local Bunyip. But every now and then I do still get a bit nervous around our bush-block dam O___O

The Dreamtime has some really interesting- and scary!- stories!  :)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:12:32 AM by OrigamiOwl »
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Unlos

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 10:13:12 AM »
The Bunyip seems a bit of an australian version of the norwegian nøkken, who lives in fresh water. He tries to lure people to him and drown them. Sometimes, he will leave the water disguised as a white horse, seek out his victims and carry them back to the water with him. These two representations are pretty well known in Norway, done by Theodor Kittelsen.


Fenris

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 12:34:32 PM »
Personally, I'm a neopagan and member of the largest such group in Norway (which doubles as the largest group of mead homebrewers in the country), which involves worship of the old gods. I tend to like religious stories from around the world, including Abrahamic mythology, but its the old scandinavian customs and stories that falls closest to my heart.

From my own childhood, the folkloric figure I remember the most is Mørtemann/Mørkemann (The Dark Man would be a literal translation) which the family told me and my cousins to keep us in after dark. Which made winters terrifying, seeing as how daylight doesn't last particularly long during that season. My grandfather also used to read to me Norwegian folklore, particularly Asbjørnsen and Mo's collected works (somewhat like the Norwegian Brothers Grimm, in that they went around the country and wrote down folkstories from across the country), as well as Snorre's sagas and stories about the old gods. Åsgardsreia (the Riders of Asgard) was another story my parents told me as a kid to keep out of storms, being the Scandinavian equivalent of the Wild Hunt. Nøkken, trolls and so on also featured, obviously. Although, I've since learned some of the older members of my family actually do believe in these things, so its not just something that one tells children either.

I also remember I liked our old priest. He had a very strong voice, and a real good storyteller, who made the stories from the bible really come alive. Made the mandatory church visits less dull (in Norway, it used to be that schoolchildren had to attend Church during the holiday season, primarily Christmas and Easter, which were the only times I was in church outside of confirmation and baptisms. My family isn't particularly Christian). I prefer the Old Testament stories to the New Testament ones, since I always found the New Testament to be a bit too repetitive and it wasn't as engaging.

Mereven

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 06:57:59 PM »
I guess a legend like Bunyip that is spread across such a large area has many different forms; I'm not so sure if there is a 'proper' story - or even what that would be... I mean my version was what my own parents & grandparents (from Gunnedah) told me... nothing more credible than that xD!

A daytime bunyip sounds evil; we at least were safe in daylight D:!  Or so we thought....  As does a nokken bunyip; particularly the left image. I never knew norway had a similar creature but I guess it makes sense with all the water about :D.

How many haltija are there... roughly?  Is there like, hundreds or do Finns have only several or so important ones that get milk and things?

Thankyou for the book references, Fenris :).  I've not heard of Asgareia and Morkemann, and from a quick search, neither has anglo-google o.O.  It's pretty neat that there are still adults who believe in their cultural legends; I guess this is how the stories stay alive c:

Fenris

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 07:09:13 PM »
Thankyou for the book references, Fenris :).  I've not heard of Asgareia and Morkemann, and from a quick search, neither has anglo-google o.O.  It's pretty neat that there are still adults who believe in their cultural legends; I guess this is how the stories stay alive c:

I did a check myself. I can't find much on Mørtemann, so I think he is either a very local thing or perhaps just something my family told us to make sure we got home before dark. At least on wikipedia, going from the Åsgardsreia article on the norwegian wiki to English makes it go to the English article on the Wild Hunt. The Wild Hunt seems to be something that crops up in many mythologies in different forms, and I find it curious that in Christian Scandinavia it was the old gods (and Odin in particular) who was depicted as leading the wild hunt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt#Scandinavia

Asbjørnsen og Moe's book is something I'd warmly suggest for anyone interested in Scandinavian folklore. The most famous abroad I think is 'The Three Billy Goats Gruff'. Its named 'Norwegian Folktales' in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Folktales
Likewise with Snorri's sagas for anyone interested in norse mythology, and history for that matter (as he wrote down sagas both about the gods and about kings).

Sharion

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2014, 04:46:58 AM »
I guess a legend like Bunyip that is spread across such a large area has many different forms

I think you don't have to have a big place to have different stories of something. :)
Since we got turned to christianity before we started to write down our legends, big parts of our old religion are lost. What we have from the time before the XI. century is mostly from scraps from the "reports" of people from other nations. We have a basic knowledge from the literature classes, and from then it's who read what theory. Oh, and we have folk tales I like to read from time to time, even as an adult - then again, most of the times you can notice a Christian touch on them.
My favourite creatures are the turul and the táltos horse.

The turul is a bird, possibly originating from the saker falcon, a kind of protector/guiding spirit (or, according to some, a god). It is said that, in a dream, it appeared to Emese, and showed her that a great river of kings will originate from her womb. Some time after she gave birth to a son: Álmos. (Some variants, but not all, claim that the bird itself was the father.)
After Álmos had grown up, he became a great leader, who united the Hungarian tribes - think of them as people resembling the Huns - by a blood oath, then led them to the West (Recipe for seven: pour wine into a cup, spice it with some blood from the tribe leaders. Get them to vow that Álmos and his descendants will be their leaders; also, they will try they very best not to kill each other while travelling, etc., then everyone can take a sip).
According to the legend, his reason to do this was that the turul forewarned him of danger by sending a dream: first eagles attacked him and his tribe, then vultures: the turul came both time and chased the other birds away.
(Note: It's a historical fact that Álmos was sacraficed before his son lead us into the Carpathian Valley. Grateful bunch, that we were.)

The Turul is also supposed to be one of the beasts that helps the táltos (Hungarian version of a shaman) to travel to the other world. The other animal is the táltos horse.
It plays a part in lots of folk tales, always as the helper of the main character. A typical storyline of our folk tales: there are three youn men. Their father (either a poor person or a king) tells them to go and try their luck (or they have to save one or three princesses). The bigger two fails (or just too lazy to even begin an adventure), while the younger one succeeds. If the main enemy is an "iron-nosed midwife" (basically an old witch) the girl can be her daughter with two foul tempered sister. In those occassions, the hero takes on a job (where three days count as three years - it's almost like waiting for an update here...), executing seemingly impossible tasks with the help of the girl. He either finds an ill, ugly, weak horse on the junk-heap, or the girl tells him to ask for it from the evil midwife as payment for his job. He has to feed the horse smouldering embers, rub it off, etc, before it turns into a magnificient horse, able to fly faster than the wind. The lovers (of course he would take the nice girl with him...) then flee on his back, while the midwife chases them. Mostly on a broom, but it seems oven-peel or sometimes a flat-iron also suffice as an aeroplane for the newly made mother-in law. The girl often throws three of her belongings to halt her (like a mirror that turns into a lake; a brush that turns into a forest, and so on), but it's the táltos that gets them out of there in one piece. (Or the one that brings the pieces of the hero to the girl before the happy end, so she can stick them together...)
If the main enemy dragons, there are usually three, stealing three princesses: the first having three heads, the second seven, and the thirds twelve. The hero goes there, battles with them (usually by knocking each other into the earth a few times, before the hero pushes the dragon so deep that only his heads are out, then kills it, after learning where it's riches are). He finds a táltos horse in each dragons stables, deals with it the same way as mentioned above, then brings them back with the princesses, so his brothers have wives, too. (I guess he is just clever enough to see the hardships of having three sisters as wives...:D )
In some occassions, he tries to win the horse (and girl) from the dragon by fleeing on the horse. The dragon also have some own táltos, so it follows them and brings them back. As always, three time's the charm. (It can also kill the hero on brutal ways, leaving it to the horse to bring the body to the girl, who brings him back to life.) The horses often hate the dragon, so in one or two occassion, if I remember well, the hero actually persuades them to throw it off from their backs; the dragon falls to the earth and crushes itself. (Don't ask why can't it just fly like at the beginning of the story. Maybe the princess was a great cook and it got too fat...)
Oh, the horses also tend to have more legs then they should: six, or even eight, but not in every story.
They can also contain fairies, devils or kobolds, and more than one case, speaking animals (in threes).

Of course, that is just the "script" of the most frequent tales; there others with more originality. Seeing that horse sacrafice was a common occurence in the old days (especially if it's hair was white), it's easy to imagine that they could carry someone to the afterworld - after they died, too. (Think of Saint Peter's horse. :D)
(A tale of the latter kind, White-Mare's-Son can be found here, if someone's interested. It looks like someone was on drugs when making this, but got some awards in it's time, and the maker knows his lore well. It's not the only variation, but the most known.)

(Now I don't have time to check it for grammatic errors, so please forgive me if it contains too much. :) I'll check it again after arriving home.)
Survived so far:  :chap4:  :chap5:  :chap6:  :chap7:  :chap8: :chap9:

Pessi

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2014, 05:07:09 AM »
Now this is going to be quite an essay since I'm really interested in mythologies and studied folkloristics as a minor subject in uni. Sorry for those of you who don't like long postings on forums.

How many haltija are there... roughly?  Is there like, hundreds or do Finns have only several or so important ones that get milk and things?

Can a Japanese person say how many kami there are?

Hegde14's take on the haltija (which btw is also the word for "owner") is a correct but simplified one. When talking about Finnish mythology it's good to start from the fact that nothing much is known for sure about what it was like before the 19th century. We didn't have a written languge before Mikael Agricola created one for the purposes of protestant reformation in the 16th century, and even long after that Finnish language and culture were considered unworthy of any scholarly attention.

Then in the 19th century the growing national romantic ideology suddenly made everything Finnish very interesting and soon even fashionable in the eyes of the so called civilised part of the people. The gathering of old runo, traditional poetic songs and stories, began, and ever since there have been all kinds of ideas and theories about their meaning and especially about what they tell of the life and beliefs of our ancestors. Reconstructing the past is not a straightforward job, it means analysing layers of runo from different eras and combining them with archaeological finds and the few historic texts mentioning the area now known as Finland and/or the people who were the ancestors of present day Finns. So there are definitive and well grounded opinions about the belief system of pre-christian Finns, but not much actual indisputable facts.

Now where does all this lead us regarding haltija?

As Hedge14 said, many things in the world have their own haltija. Actually it seems in the eyes of pagan Finns almost everything in the world has it's own haltija. This goes for nature as well as the human dwellings. It also seems to go for humans themselves: in the old spells the person reciting the spell often starts by evoking his/her own haltija, calling for it to rise, quite obviously to give power to the spell. This haltija probably wasn't seen as a spirit coming form the outside and taking hold of the person's body but as an integral part of their own being. We still say someone is "haltioissaan", in (the hold) of their haltija, when they are really elated or enraptured.

It could be assumed Finns of the old had no gods. They just had haltija, of which some were really powerful and godlike, some very minor, and others something in between. Some nature haltija were thought to be "emuu", the mothers of certain things and therefore their protectors. For example Hongotar was the emuu of the bears (and let's not start on the myriad beliefs concerning our sacred bear here, just mention that it's our mythical ancestor), Käreitär the emuu of foxes and Lovetar (also known as Louhi or Pohjan Akka) the emuu of wolves.

A person too could become haltija, for example the first person to die in a house was in many ares believed to become it's haltija. Actually, when my father died a few years ago, I couldn't help wondering if he became the haltija of the house ;)

Unlos, Näkki lives in Finnsih waters too. I don't know how old or recent the loan of the name is, but a creature much resembling it in some stories in Vetehinen, a haltija of water,  so i guess our Näkki is a crossbreeding of them both.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 05:19:21 AM by Pessi »
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Sue D Nym

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 05:48:19 AM »
Well I cannot tell a Nordic myth, but I can tell one I grew up with. The tale of La Llorona, the weeping woman. According to what I was told, she was a woman who lost both of her children to a river. Some variations say it was an accident, some say she went mad and killed them. Either way, upon loosing her children she went insane with sorrow and killed herself. She arose as a spirit that haunts the streets at night looking for children on their own. Any children she found would be whisked away to some horrible fate. It made me shiver at night for years.
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Unlos

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2014, 06:34:33 AM »
Unlos, Näkki lives in Finnsih waters too. I don't know how old or recent the loan of the name is, but a creature much resembling it in some stories in Vetehinen, a haltija of water,  so i guess our Näkki is a crossbreeding of them both.

It might very well be a crossbreeding of the two. And the loan word is probably from Swedish, since he's called Näkken in swedish? According to
Wikipedia, a similar waterspirit is common to the stories of all germanic people.

Hedge14

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2014, 09:19:55 AM »
Hey Pessi! Your post is great! :) It's true that I offered quite simplified version of haltija. They do have very different appearances and functions. Also, there is differences between beliefs in different parts of Finland. I did not talk about different "väki" much at all or how different beings have been viewed.   

"Hiisi" is perfect example about that. It's believed that it used to mean holy place or holy groove. Christianity made hiisi some evil or devious creature. But even after influence of Christianity hiisi has had many functions: Hiisi as protector at childbirth, hiisi that guards treasures, elk of hiisi, and hiisi that is associated with fire and so on. All these believes were just oral tradition, so there is a lot of variance.

What are your thoughts about synty? Synty are my favorite thing about Finnish mythology. From Kalevala my favorite synty is origin of iron. It would be interesting to read some more traditional synty-poems about that. There is bound to be many different versions. Unfortunately, I think SKVR-database is really confusing, so no luck there. :(

Pessi

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 03:05:32 AM »
"Hiisi" is perfect example about that. It's believed that it used to mean holy place or holy groove. Christianity made hiisi some evil or devious creature.

Seeing that "hiisi" places were pagan graveyards and holy groves it's no wonder the heralds of christianity saw them as something belonging to satan =) On the other hand archaeological evidence shows that many of the first churches were built on hiisi, often after it had been "cleaned" by clearing the grave area and pushing all pagan bones and other remains to some far corner - and probably sprinkling holy water all around and reciting prayers and whatnot.

I've wondered if the original hiisi was not just the place but also a haltija of the place, just like Tuoni can used as both the name of the place where dead people go and the name of the "ruler" of that place. Kind of same way as the many haltija are personifications of places and natural phenomena: Hiisi as the haltija of hiisi places, Tuoni as the haltija of the Tuoni/Tuonela place.

Quote
What are your thoughts about synty?

Synty is a really interesting concept. I like the idea that to control different things, a noita/tietäjä has to know it's synty, it's "birth", in other words where it came from (the emuu I mentioned earlier obviously have their part in this also, being the "mothers" of certain things). Like the birth of iron you mentioned that Väinämöinen needs knowledge of to be able to cure a an axe wound, a wound made by iron.

The SKVR database (for non-Finns: SKVR is short of Suomen kansan vanhat runot, "The old poems of Finnish people", a 37 part collection of big books full of the old poems gathered from all around Finland. As far as I remember, one of them is totally dedicated to spells. The database was created to make it easier for people to study the poems since the actual books can mostly be found in university libraries.) can be rather confusing, yes. It's difficult to find anything specific when all variables you can use for a search are the area where the poems have been vollected, the collector's name, time when collected and some words of the poem you are searching for. So if you don't know any actual words, just a theme, it's difficult to find much anything without having to read lots of poems through. (As a teenager I once spent a few hours in library with SKVR trying to find a specific variation of a specific poem. Never found it, but reading through a mass of related poems was really interesting.)

I know one poem about the synty of bear though, and sometimes sing it to my younger boy whose name means bear. It goes like this:

Miss on otso synnytetty
mesikämmen käännytetty?
Tuoll on otso synnytetty
mesikämmen käännytetty:
luona kuun, tykönä päivän,
otavaisen olkapäillä.
Sielt on maahan laskettuna
kultaisessa kätkyessä
vitjoissa hopeisissa

(In English:

Where has the bear been given birth to,
the honeyhanded been turned over?
There has the bear been given birth to,
the honeahanded been turned over:
by the moon, by the sun,
on the shoulders of otava [= the star constellation Big Dipper].
From there has been lowered onto earth
in a golden cradle
hanging from silver chains)

There are two longer versions in SKVR that I found using the first line as a keyword. In them the birth of bear is the beginning of a spell for ensuring the safety of the cattle while it grazes in the forests.
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Hedge14

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Re: Global Mythologies
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 04:33:12 AM »
Hi, Pessi!

Can you give me some examples of churches built upon Finnish pagan sites? I have heard of it happening, but it would be interesting to hear more.

I think it's very possible that hiisi was also haltija of a place back when hiisi used to mean holy place.  It would be more likely that hiisi just lost a function (of place) at the arrival of Christianity, rather than gaining completely new one. But I guess, there is no way of knowing.

I like the synty you sing to your son, I have read it before! What tune you use?

Synty is interesting concept, indeed. Much of Finnish magic is singing synty of different things and controlling things through them. There is at least one book dedicated to spells, it called Suomen kansan muinaisia loitsurunoja, "Ancient spells of Finnish people".  It has mainly other spells than ones using synty. I like "banishing" spells most. Singer asks evil thing to leave and threaten them if they don't. Some of threats are really imaginative like:

(Warning: very bad and loose translations!)
"I shall harness a fiery horse, tie it to frontless and backless sleigh, so you may go over hills."

"Go inside stony rock, inside a iron barn."

"Leave Lempo flying,
go Blue-wing gliding,
go Horsehair-tailed running,
go Satan wandering,
with you bloody nails,
with your iron teeth.
To your home, scoundrel, run!
go evil back to your own lands,
underneath nine continents/lands,
and half of the tenth continent/land,
to eternal hell,
to thick darkness.
Where there is no moon, sun
No air,
Where other murders are,
other evil-doers,
From there you won't be heard,
won't be able to voice yourself ever,
even if days pass you
Or moon is bowing,
Otava taking,
stars of sky wanting."
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 07:08:58 AM by Hedge14 »