Author Topic: The SSSS Art Museum  (Read 2758619 times)

LilG

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13590 on: December 27, 2020, 06:21:21 AM »
Maybe something like Camila Cuevas’ Glitchtale animated series would work?

/>(I highly recommend watching the whole series in full to anyone with an interest in Undertale. It’s really good ;D)

It has minimal voice acting and most of the speech is in “speech bubbles” like in the game it’s based on (Undertale). Most sounds coming from the characters are laughs, grunts, exhales, etc. and rarely is audible speech ever used.
I feel like this would work perfectly for an SSSS animated series, so as to bypass both the awkwardness of the POV PLAIN and the need to always have subtitles on screen if we go the “all characters speak their actual language” route.
We could then add little flags to the speech bubbles like in the comic so as to show what language is being spoken.
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Suominoita

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13591 on: December 27, 2020, 09:48:33 AM »

I feel like this would work perfectly for an SSSS animated series, so as to bypass both the awkwardness of the POV PLAIN and the need to always have subtitles on screen if we go the “all characters speak their actual language” route.

Why would subtitles be awkward? I don't know of the other Nordics, but subtitles in Finland are the norm. Sometimes there are subtitles even in the same language as is spoken. Dubbing is used for the little children who haven't learned to read (fast enough) yet. Helps learning languages in a way, too...
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Vulpes

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13592 on: December 27, 2020, 10:00:25 AM »
Most spectators should be able to focus on only one voice/direction, as that's an ability we routinely use when we're chatting with our company in a full restaurant or the like.

Thank-you for the italics on most - I am one of those who struggles mightily to follow one conversation among many. In fact, I use this as a tool (or at least I did in the Before Times) by sometimes working in a café; the various conversations merge into an incomprehensible background babble like white noise, allowing me to focus so much better on whatever I'm reading or writing.

No! The language barrier is the very important part of the story, it’s partly why I love it so  much!

I'm with you and JoB on this!

Why would subtitles be awkward? I don't know of the other Nordics, but subtitles in Finland are the norm. Sometimes there are subtitles even in the same language as is spoken. Dubbing is used for the little children who haven't learned to read (fast enough) yet. Helps learning languages in a way, too...

I used to adore going to foreign movies (back when I lived near a small cinema that showed them), but only if they were subtitled - I find dubbing absolutely awful, the words never, ever fit the mouth movements. And yes, it's a great way to support learning a new language.
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Annuil

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13593 on: December 27, 2020, 11:27:49 AM »
Maybe something like Camila Cuevas’ Glitchtale animated series would work?
It has minimal voice acting and most of the speech is in “speech bubbles” like in the game it’s based on (Undertale). Most sounds coming from the characters are laughs, grunts, exhales, etc. and rarely is audible speech ever used.
I feel like this would work perfectly for an SSSS animated series, so as to bypass both the awkwardness of the POV PLAIN and the need to always have subtitles on screen if we go the “all characters speak their actual language” route.
We could then add little flags to the speech bubbles like in the comic so as to show what language is being spoken.
Well, I think SSSS needs a full voice animation, it will make it more alive  ^-^
(It was great to watch the video since I know both Russian and English quite well)
I wonder if the most convenient way still would be to stick to the comic itself and just make the audience know who is from where and speak PLAIN when it is used in the comic.

Something off the top of my mind would be to use movie theaters' current-day multi-channel audio equipment: Have the character's "real" voice (original language) come from the direction of his face on the screen, and simultaneously have an omnidirectional "whisper" in PLAIN. Most spectators should be able to focus on only one voice/direction, as that's an ability we routinely use when we're chatting with our company in a full restaurant or the like. But of course that probably ruins the chances to have the same movie broadcast within the century, as both TV sets sold and signal encoding standards haven't fully adopted even stereo thus far ...
Hm, I think it would be hard, like, I hate when the translation of the voice is spoken “over” the original and you are trying to figure out how to listen to both all the time... I have trouble speaking to people in the restaurants because of all the noise sometimes also O_O

So many interesting ideas, guys! I hope one day we’ll see them come to live  :D
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Mirasol

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13594 on: December 27, 2020, 12:04:59 PM »
In the last days a thought a lot about what it would look like, if a mage tried to fight a kade so the eyes have to stay closed.

I think it could look like this.



Do we have any image of an kade not seen in a mages mind? I didn't remember one so this image contains unauthorized improvisation.

Neat! Nice use of canvas-texture! And your version of physical-Kade-form looks appropriately terrifying.

I´m also very much enjoying all the animated-SSSS-discussing. I don´t really have anything to add, though I´m having the same struggle as Vulpes with the multiple conversations at once, so that´s maybe not the greatest option. I also really love the language-barrier-aspect, so that´s really something that should be kept for a movie/show. But how? Difficult, difficult...

So many interesting ideas, guys! I hope one day we’ll see them come to live  :D

Can only agree with this.

EDIT: Oh, and Gaelle, thank you so much for the information on the programs! I rarely have the patience for animating, but at this point I still blame it on not having ideal software to do it. I´m still trying to get into it, so thank you! :D
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 02:24:07 PM by Mirasol »
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JoB

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13595 on: December 27, 2020, 12:28:49 PM »
Maybe something like Camila Cuevas’ Glitchtale animated series would work?
(... did she outright disintegrate that speeding car, complete with passengers!? O_o )

Thank-you for the italics on most - I am one of those who struggles mightily to follow one conversation among many.
Hard to forget when I'm one of those myself - when I have to follow a drowning conversation like that, it takes me maybe an hour until I "I need some fresh air" (actually, silence, to avoid headache and nausea) ...
(Funny how the same guy used to be a ham radio op able to pick up voices from "under" the white noise where the random bystander didn't notice any speech mixed in at all, eh?)
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LilG

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13596 on: December 28, 2020, 03:44:10 AM »
Why would subtitles be awkward? I don't know of the other Nordics, but subtitles in Finland are the norm. Sometimes there are subtitles even in the same language as is spoken. Dubbing is used for the little children who haven't learned to read (fast enough) yet. Helps learning languages in a way, too...

I’m not against subtitles when it comes to movies in foreign languages (I need them to understand what’s happening after all), I’ll take that over dubs any time of the week, but I do feel like they take away from the immersion, unlike when watching a movie without subtitles on in which you understand what’s happening and being said.
What I suggested would be like subtitles in a way, still needing to be read, but now they would be part of the animation itself, instead of being something superimposed post-production. They’d be part of the world, like how the speech bubbles in the comic itself are.
And trust me, I hate dubs as much as anyone else. I don’t like it how the lip movements don’t line up with what’s being said.

With all this said, I can still see the benefit of having everyone properly speak, even with subtitles on, both from a “learning a new language” standpoint and a “seeing the characters you know and love actually speak” standpoint.
But, in the end, it’d be the animators’ decision on what way they want to go, since lip-syncing is pretty hard stuff if you ask me.

(... did she outright disintegrate that speeding car, complete with passengers!? O_o )

Oh, trust me, she does more horrid stuff later on...
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LilG

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13597 on: December 28, 2020, 03:47:53 AM »
In the last days a thought a lot about what it would look like, if a mage tried to fight a kade so the eyes have to stay closed.

I think it could look like this.



Do we have any image of an kade not seen in a mages mind? I didn't remember one so this image contains unauthorized improvisation.

Nice painting ;D !
And nice creepy floaty skeleton! Gives me SCP vibes for some reason.
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GaelleDragons

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13598 on: December 28, 2020, 06:33:06 AM »
... nope, I don't see how that can be achieved short of shifting "understandable" around between the characters' primary (voice) and some secondary (e.g., subtitles) medium. It needs to telegraph that it's not the character who has suddenly changed, but some technicality of the movie presentation, so subtitles seem to be a good choice / established convention. Unless we can think of (and then establish) some new, superior "code" ... ?

I think having the characters switch from PLAIN to their native language shouldn't be too awkward if the audience has enough context to understand that they are in fact never speaking in PLAIN. First character interactions should be in their own language, and then they'd all switch to PLAIN when necessary.
For example, if character A speaks and character B replies, then character B understood character A. If character A speaks and character B looks confused, then character B and character A do not undertand each other.

I remember they did something like that in Vikings, where the character's voices sometimes switch to Old Norse when the filmmakers want to make a point that the characters cannot be understood, or in an emotional, historically relevant moment (if we had to translate that to our SSSS show or movie, I think for example that all of Lalli's and Onni's runos should be in Finnish, and maybe without subtitles, just like in the comic). Also I'm all for the characters having accents when speaking English, it'll work as a reminder that they are from different countries.


Something off the top of my mind would be to use movie theaters' current-day multi-channel audio equipment: Have the character's "real" voice (original language) come from the direction of his face on the screen, and simultaneously have an omnidirectional "whisper" in PLAIN. Most spectators should be able to focus on only one voice/direction, as that's an ability we routinely use when we're chatting with our company in a full restaurant or the like. But of course that probably ruins the chances to have the same movie broadcast within the century, as both TV sets sold and signal encoding standards haven't fully adopted even stereo thus far ...

Mhh... I'm not sure about that idea, it would make the whole thing sound like a badly dubbed interview from a documentary. I know I wouldn't want to watch a movie dubbed like that. ^^"


I’m not against subtitles when it comes to movies in foreign languages (I need them to understand what’s happening after all), I’ll take that over dubs any time of the week, but I do feel like they take away from the immersion, unlike when watching a movie without subtitles on in which you understand what’s happening and being said.
What I suggested would be like subtitles in a way, still needing to be read, but now they would be part of the animation itself, instead of being something superimposed post-production. They’d be part of the world, like how the speech bubbles in the comic itself are.
And trust me, I hate dubs as much as anyone else. I don’t like it how the lip movements don’t line up with what’s being said.

With all this said, I can still see the benefit of having everyone properly speak, even with subtitles on, both from a “learning a new language” standpoint and a “seeing the characters you know and love actually speak” standpoint.
But, in the end, it’d be the animators’ decision on what way they want to go, since lip-syncing is pretty hard stuff if you ask me.

We absolutely could find a way to make the subtitles seem less intrusive! By changing the typo for example, or animating them in a certain way that would fit the scene. We'd also need to add flags or another type of code that informs the viewer of what language is being spoken. I think the average, non-nordic viewer can't always tell the difference between Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish and Finnish, so we'd have to take that into account.

Well, concerning lip-sync, the animators would have to animate the characters' mouths moving anyway, so might as well make it stick with the audio.
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moredhel

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13599 on: December 28, 2020, 07:21:40 AM »
We'd also need to add flags or another type of code that informs the viewer of what language is being spoken.

I think flags are the best way to do this. The are simple graphical symbols so it is possible to get the information very fast. Speed is important if you do not want to distract the viewer to much.

Jitter

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13600 on: December 28, 2020, 08:25:33 AM »

We absolutely could find a way to make the subtitles seem less intrusive! By changing the typo for example, or animating them in a certain way that would fit the scene. We'd also need to add flags or another type of code that informs the viewer of what language is being spoken. I think the average, non-nordic viewer can't always tell the difference between Norwegian, Icelandic, Swedish, Danish and Finnish, so we'd have to take that into account.

Coming from a lifetime of watching subtitled television and film: don’t. The subtitles should be clear and visible, and always in the same spot. If you have to look for the translation, you will miss some of it. Spoken word moves very quckly, and susbtitles always omit something anyway, so you should allow as much clarity as possible to keep it moving with the speech. This even for viewers with average text processing ability, which is not the same thing as all potential viewers.

An exception to this would be an animation that has fairly little dialogue, where the spoken word and the translation to it would be used as an effect rather than the main story element. This might work for SSSS too, as Minna does much storytelling by images, but it would also lose much of the human warmth and humor the spoken interactions largely represent in the comic.
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Annuil

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13601 on: December 28, 2020, 08:41:05 AM »
I remember they did something like that in Vikings, where the character's voices sometimes switch to Old Norse when the filmmakers want to make a point that the characters cannot be understood, or in an emotional, historically relevant moment (if we had to translate that to our SSSS show or movie, I think for example that all of Lalli's and Onni's runos should be in Finnish, and maybe without subtitles, just like in the comic). Also I'm all for the characters having accents when speaking English, it'll work as a reminder that they are from different countries.
There is a movie, called “Secret Life of Walter Mitty” (the most beautiful movie ever, definitely something to watch), and there they have a bit of language barrier (actually with Icelanders, but I’m not sure if they are using actual Icelandic)
What they did was they just left the natives speak their language and the main character just didn’t understand it. No subtitles. But in their case the used a little bit of facial expressions and the body language to make sure audience gets the idea of the meaning of the conversation. (Sadly I couldn’t find a good video-cut to post here)
That could be used for Lalli and Tuuri speaking Finnish, or Lalli and Onni, but since we need to know the details of their conversations, we’ll probably still need a translation in some sort of subtitles...
An exception to this would be an animation that has fairly little dialogue, where the spoken word and the translation to it would be used as an effect rather than the main story element. This might work for SSSS too, as Minna does much storytelling by images, but it would also lose much of the human warmth and humor the spoken interactions largely represent in the comic.

Hm, subtitles that translate elvish in the Lord of the Rings movies don’t confuse you and don’t drag your attention away from the scene... as far as I remember. We do need to keep the interactions, as I said before, we need the language barrier, which cannot be shown if there are no interactions between the characters.
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Vulpes

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13602 on: December 28, 2020, 10:40:42 AM »
(Funny how the same guy used to be a ham radio op able to pick up voices from "under" the white noise where the random bystander didn't notice any speech mixed in at all, eh?)

Nah, that's totally understandable! I think it's a keen sensitivity to speech that makes multiple conversations so hard - try to focus on one, and fragments of all others intrude. Speech in white noise? Easy!
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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13603 on: December 28, 2020, 11:56:57 AM »
Nah, that's totally understandable! I think it's a keen sensitivity to speech that makes multiple conversations so hard - try to focus on one, and fragments of all others intrude. Speech in white noise? Easy!

That's exactly it! I'm always unable to not listen to other people's conversations in, say, public transport, even though I don't want to. The words just invade my perception, if they are in a language that I can understand. I also cannot listen to music with lyrics as background to anything for the same reason.
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Vulpes

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Re: The SSSS Art Museum
« Reply #13604 on: December 29, 2020, 07:15:02 PM »
That's exactly it! I'm always unable to not listen to other people's conversations in, say, public transport, even though I don't want to. The words just invade my perception, if they are in a language that I can understand. I also cannot listen to music with lyrics as background to anything for the same reason.

I can usually ignore conversations in public, IF I am not trying to follow any of them. This makes working in a café perfect for me, the conversations blur into background noise and make it easier to focus. But every now and then I run into someone with a really penetrating voice, usually talking about themselves or expressing an ignorant opinion, and that one voice intrudes. And of course if I'm actually trying to talk to someone, beyond a certain threshold I start having trouble focusing on them. On the other hand, if I'm on public transport I'm rather likely to be eavesdropping!  >:D

I have your difficulty with listening to music with lyrics if I'm trying to work. Also those tend to be earworms, and I'm terribly susceptible to those. Going into a store during Christmas is torture - all those holly jolly frigging earworms!!!  o_O
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