Author Topic: Finnish learning thread!  (Read 83944 times)

Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #240 on: June 19, 2015, 09:15:10 AM »
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)
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Ana Nymus

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #241 on: June 19, 2015, 09:57:26 AM »
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)

I can't even imagine how hard it must be to dance in those costumes. Props to them for doing that!
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AuthorOfLight

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #242 on: June 19, 2015, 11:22:43 AM »
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)

O_o
How could they dance in those costumes? It's hard enough without them!
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Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #243 on: June 19, 2015, 02:05:25 PM »
Many, many hours of exercises, I think? I read perfomancers did have a lot of troubles with their costumes. First, it is basically hot with them put on. Second, narrowed vision. Third, all the parts of them tend to live their own lives (especially tails).

Suomeen takaisin taas.
Nyt minä yrittin kirjoittaa runon, joka olisi “tyylissani” (lue: luonnosta).

Kukkulan huipulla,
jolle käyn usein,
kukkimisen lopussa on kaunokaiseja,
neilikat ovat siis kukkimassa,
kirjava sepeli on tähdessä,
ja ajuruoho nitoo verkkoja ja solmuja silla.
Kukkulamme huipuilla
sateisella kesälläkään
ei nurmi kasva.
Kukkulamme huipuilla
kuivassa vuodessakin
kukkivat vuoroittain
kaunokasit ja neilikat,
pallo-ohdakkeet sitten,
ja ajuruoho levittää varpuja sepelille.

(Toivottavasti, kielioppi ei ole niin huonoa...)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2015, 10:30:34 AM by Bobriha »
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Sunflower

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #244 on: June 19, 2015, 02:17:06 PM »
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)

I'm glad I dropped in on this thread -- I'm a huge ballet fan, and that looks wonderful! 

An article about the ballet:  http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150316/news/303169913
"The music of what happens," said great Fionn, "that is the finest music in the world."
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Pessi

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #245 on: June 19, 2015, 03:44:29 PM »
I should add to my comment about kid's cartoons in Finnish that most of the DVD:s I mentioned are dubbed versions of foreign things. Like Little Mole (Myyrä), Shaun the Sheep (Late Lammas), Wallace and Gromit, Pokémon etc. And of course movies by Dreamworks, Disney, Ghibli etc.

That "weird" Youtube cartoon linked earlier is however a totally Finnish thing called Pasila. It's aimed at adults and parodies the Finnish police.
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Ann Marie

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #246 on: June 19, 2015, 06:58:15 PM »
By the way, Finns have Moomin ballet :)

Tuo on kaunis.
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Pessi

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #247 on: June 24, 2015, 05:08:47 AM »
OK, this is going to be a rather long post since I couldn't resist making an actual list of the words in this comic i linked earlier. Making the list I noticed a repeating error where the third person possessive suffix form of comitative case was claimed to be the basic form. I've added the basic forms to the list as comments. There were also cases missing here and there. These are mentioned on the list.

koira              nominative
koiran      genitive (dog’s)
koiraa      partitive (a part of a dog/some of a dog) (harjasin koiraa = I brushed a dog (partly))
koiran      accusative (dog as an object) (harjasin koiran = I brushed a dog (wholly))
koirassa      inessive (in a dog)
koirasta      elative (of a dog; from inside a dog)
koiraan      illative ((in)to a dog)
koiralla      adessive (literally ”on a dog”; also used to mark possession: koiralla on pallo = the dog has a ball)
koiralta      ablative (from (on) the dog)
koiralle      allative ((on)to the dog)
koirana      essive (as a dog)
koiraksi      translative ((turn) into a dog)
koiratta      abessive (without a dog)
koirineen      comitative (with (her/his/their) dog; should be koirine)
koirin              instructive (with a dog as an instument)

koirasi      nominative/genitive your dog (singular you)
koirani      nominative/genitive my dog
koiransa      nominative/genitive her/his/their dog
koiramme      nominative/genitive our dog
koiranne      nominative/genitive your dog (plural you)

koiraani      partitive/illative my dog
koiraasi      partitive/illative your dog (singular you)
koiraansa      partitive/illative her/his/their dog
koiraamme   partitive/illative our dog
koiraanne      partitive/illative your dog (plural you)

koirassani      inessive my dog ("In my dog")
koirassasi      inessive your dog (singular you)
koirassansa   inessive her/his/their dog
koirassamme   inessive our dog
koirassanne    inessive your dog (plural you)

koirastani      elative my dog ("From (inside) my dog")
koirastasi      elative your dog (singular you)
koirastaan      elative her/his/their dog
koirastamme   elative our dog
koirastanne   elative your dog (plural you)

koirallani      adessive my dog (literally "On my dog")
koirallasi      adessive your dog (singular you)
koirallaan      adessive her/his/their dog
koirallamme   adessive our dog
koirallanne      adessive your dog (plural you)

For some reason ablative and allative have been skipped.

koiranani      essive my dog ("As my dog")
koiranasi      essive your dog (singular you)
koiranaan       essive her/his/their dog
koiranamme   essive our dog
koirananne    essive your dog (plural you)

koirakseni       translative my dog ("(Turn) Into my dog")
koiraksesi      translative your dog (singular you)
koirakseen      translative her/his/their dog
koiraksemme   translative our dog
koiraksenne   translative your dog (plural you)

koirattani      abessive my dog ("Without my dog")
koirattasi      abessive your dog (singular you)
koirattaan      abessive her/hos/their dog
koirattamme   abessive our dog
koirattanne   abessive your dog (plural you)

koirineni      comitative my dog ("With my dog")
koirinesi      comitative your dog (singular you)
koirineen       comitative her/his/their dog
koirinemme   comitative our dog
koirinenne      comitative your dog (plural you)

With possessive suffix there’s no instructive.

The clitic -kaan means approximately “not even”/”neither”:

koirakaan       nominative + -kaan (“Not even a dog”)
koirankaan      genitive/accusative + -kaan
koiraakaan      partitive + -kaan
koirassakaan   inessive + -kaan
koirastakaan   elative + -kaan
koiraankaan   illative + -kaan
koirallakaan   adessive + -kaan
koiraltakaan   ablative + -kaan
koirallekaan   allative + -kaan
koiranakaan   essive + -kaan
koiraksikaan   translative + -kaan
koirattakaan    abessive + -kaan
koirineenkaan   comitative + possessive suffix + -kaan (should be koirinekaan)
koirinkaan      instructive + -kaan

The clitic -ko turns the word into a question:

koirako      nominative + -ko (”A dog?”)
koiranko      genitive + -ko
koiraako      partitive + -ko
koirassako      inessive + -ko
koirastako      elative + -ko
koiraanko      illative + -ko
koirallako      adessive + -ko
koiraltako      ablative + -ko
koiralleko      allative + -ko
koiranako      essive + -ko
koiraksiko      translative + -ko
koirattako      abessive + -ko
koirineenko   comitative + possessive suffix + -ko (should be koirineko)
koirinko      instructive + -ko

koirasikaan   nominative/genitive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiranikaan   nominative/genitive my dog + -kaan (“Not even my dog/dog’s”)
koiransakaan   nominative/genitive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirammekaan   nominative/genitive our dog + -kaan
koirannekaan   nominative/genitive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koiraanikaan   partitive my dog + -kaan
koiraasikaan   partittive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiraansakaan   partitive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiraammekaan   partitive our dog + -kaan
koiraannekaan   partitive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koirassanikaan   inessive mys dog + -kaan (”Not even in my dog”)
koirassasikaan   inessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirassaankaan   inessive her/hos/their dog + -kaan
koirassammekaan   inessive our dog + -kaan
koirassannekaan    inessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koirastanikaan   elative my dog + -kaan (”Not even of/from (inside) my dog”)
koirastasikaan   elative your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirastaankaan   elative her/hos/their dog + -kaan
koirastammekaan   elative our dog + -kaan
koirastannekaan           elative your dog (plural you) + -kaan

For some reason the illative has been skipped.

koirallanikaan   adessive my dog + -kaan (”Not even on my dog”)
koirallasikaan   adessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirallaankaan   adessive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirallammekaan   adessive our dog + -kaan
koirallannekaan           adessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

For some reason the ablative and allative have been skipped.

koirananikaan   essive my dog + -kaan (“Not even as my dog”)
koiranasikaan   essive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koiranaankaan   essive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiranammekaan   essive our dog + -kaan
koiranannekaan           essive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koiraksenikaan   translative my dog + -kaan (“Not even (turn) into my dog”)
koiraksesikaan   translative your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirakseenkaan   translative her/his/their dog + -kaan
koiraksemmekaan   translative our dog + -kaan
koiraksennekaan   translative your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koirattanikaan   abessive my dog + -kaan (“Not even without my dog”)
koirattasikaan   abessive your dog (singular you) + -kaan
koirattaankaan   abessive her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirattammekaan   abessive our dog + -kaan
koirattannekaan           abessive your dog (plural you) + -kaan

koirinenikaan   comitative my dog + -kaan (”Not even with my dog”)
koirinesikaan   comitative your dog + -kaan
koirineenkaan   comitative her/his/their dog + -kaan
koirinemmekaan           comitative our dog + -kaan
koirinennekaan           comitative your dog (plural you) + -kaan

As stated already, with possessive suffix there’s no instructive case.

koirasiko      nominative/genitive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiraniko      nominative/genitive my dog + -ko (“My dog?”)
koiransako      nominative/genitive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirammeko   nominative/genitive our dog + -ko
koiranneko      nominative/genitive your dog (plural you) + -ko

koiraaniko      partitive my dog + -ko ("Some of my dog?")
koiraasiko      partitive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiraansako   partitive her/his/their dog + -ko
koiraammeko   partitive our dog + -ko
koiraanneko   partitive your dog (plural you) + -ko

koirassaniko   inessive my dog + -ko (”In my dog?”)
koirassasiko   inessive your dog (singular you) + ko
koirassaanko   inessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirassammeko   inessive our dog + -ko
koirassanneko   inessive your dog (plural you) + -ko

koirastaniko   elative my dog + -ko (“Of/from (inside) my dog?”)
koirastasiko   elative your dog (singular you) + -ko   
koirastaanko   elative her/his/their dog + -ko
koirastammeko   elative our dog + -ko
koirastanneko   elative your dog (plural you) + -ko

For some reason the illative has been skipped.

koirallaniko   adessive my dog + -ko (“On my dog?”)
koirallasiko   adessive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirallaanko   adessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirallammeko   adessive our dog + -ko
koirallanneko   adessive your dog (plural you) + -ko

For some reason the ablative and allative have been skipped.

koirananiko   essive my dog + -ko (“As my dog?”)
koiranasiko   essive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koiranaanko   essive her/his/their dog + -ko
koiranammeko   essive our dog + -ko
koirananneko   essive your dog (plural you) + -ko

koirakseniko   translative my dog + -ko (“(Turn) into my dog?”)
koiraksesiko   translative your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirakseenko   translative her/his/their dog + -ko
koiraksemmeko   translative our dog + -ko
koiraksenneko   translative your dog (plural you) + -ko

koirattaniko   abessive my dog + -ko (“Without my dog?”)
koirattasiko   abessive your dog (singular you) + -ko
koirattaanko   abessive her/his/their dog + -ko
koirattammeko   abessive our dog + -ko
koirattanneko   abessive your dog + -ko

koirineniko      comitative my dog + -ko (“With my dog?”)
koirinesiko      comitative your dog + -ko
koirineenko   comitative her/his/their dog + -ko
koirinemmeko   comitative our dog + -ko
koirinenneko   comitative your dog (plural you) + -ko

As mentioned above, with possessive suffix there’s no instructuve case.

The words in the comic from this on are a repetition of the last two litanies but with the -kaan and -ko clitics combined. It doesn’t matter much which way round the -kaan and -ko are when combined, the meaning stays the same. These combinations are – even if grammatically totally correct - however rather clumsy and hardly ever used in  everyday language. For example “Koirinenikaanko?” would rather be on the lines of “Eikö koirani kanssakaan?” (ei = not + -kö = ? / koira = dog + -ni = my / kanssa = with + -kaan = (not) even). Edit Actually, even that sounds rather stiff. Probably the most natural way to say it would be "Eikö edes koirani kanssa?" where "edes" means even.



It may have been noticed that accusative isn’t mentioned in most of the litanies. This is because accusative usually looks like genitive or partitive depending on the situation. It has even been debated if the Finnish language can be said to actually have such a case as accusative since the case doesn’t have it’s own suffix.

The clitics -han, -kin and -pa/-pä have also been excluded from the comic (probably for the very good reason that there was no space). When used thay are added to the end of the word the same way as -kaan and -ko.

The clitic -kin means approximately "even/too", for example "koirakin" could be translated "even a dog" or "a dog too".

The clitics -han and -pa/-pä don't have actual meanings, they are used to stress certain words. For example "sinähän sanoit niin" means literally "you said so" but the clitic -hän after sinä, "you", puts special importance on it and gives it a sense of argument ("it was you who said so"). One example of -pa/-pä in it's turn is "onpa tänään kaunis päivä" which means literally "it's beautiful day today" but stresses the word on, "is", in a way that gives it a sense of wonder ("My, what a beautiful day it is").


« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 07:50:20 AM by Pessi »
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Ann Marie

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #248 on: June 24, 2015, 06:08:00 AM »
Pessi, I begin to suspect you may be a little obsessive.  Just a little, and I'm not complaining at all.   :D

I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog".  That, in particular, I'm not so sure I'm thankful for.
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Eriaror

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #249 on: June 24, 2015, 07:25:53 AM »
I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog".
If you think of this particular dog, I'm sure one can come up with some uses. The Finnish language thinks of everything. :D

Speaking of that list, I think I'm going to spend some time with it, figuring out the Hungarian pairs of Finnish suffixes... so it surely had one use so far. :D
(I could post it, too, if somebody would find it interesting)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 07:30:13 AM by Eriaror »
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Pessi

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #250 on: June 24, 2015, 07:41:57 AM »
I know I'm going to fall asleep tonight pondering the uses of a word that means "not even from inside my dog".

One of the funny things with Finnish language: opinion is expressed using elative. "In my opinion" = "(minun) mielestäni" (mieli = mind -> mielestäni = from my mind) - or simply "minusta" (minä = nominative case of "me", minusta = elative case of "me").

So if it's the opinion of a dog, it can be expressed "koirasta". If it's the opinion of my dog, the word turns into "koirastani". And if even my dog doesn't agree to something, then it's "koirastanikaan". Like "Ruoka ei ole hyvää koirastanikaan" = "The food isn't good even in the opinion of my dog".

Welcome to the wonderful world of Finnish language. It doesn't make sense even to us natives if we think too tightly on it.

Edit

Elative is also used when you talk or tell about something. "Puhun koirastani" = I talk about my dog. So "En puhu koirastanikaan" = "I don't talk even about my dog" (or "I don't talk about my dog either", depending on situation.)

Edit 2

Also if you like something, the thing you like is in elative case. "Pidän koirastani" = I like my dog. So if your poor furry creature has lost your good opinion, you might say "en pidä koirastanikaan" = I don't like even my dog/I don't like my dog either.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:39:33 AM by Pessi »
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Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #251 on: June 27, 2015, 08:57:06 AM »
Minulla on kysymys. Mitä on kermaviili? Onko se kuin smetana vai jokin eri?
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Ann Marie

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #252 on: June 27, 2015, 08:19:14 PM »
Pessi, English doesn't make sense either if you think about it too hard.  Finnish almost seems logical in comparison.

Bobriha, luulan niin? 

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Bobriha

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #253 on: June 27, 2015, 11:53:43 PM »
Luuletko, if you wanted to ask "What do you think?" (You will figure out how conjugations work, if you have more practice with Finnish, so just keep going!) Well, in my opinion lack of logic is what our Indo-European languages are :). Finnish has it's reefs too. Say, I can't find any logic after a/ä turning o/ö in some long words in plural genitive, partitive and so on, and in some words just not turning! This pretty sweet "joskus, ei aina" and poooh! you are obligated to check every word in question in Wikisanakirja.

Ja minä vielä haluan tietää kermaviilistä. Jo tekin marjapiirakan jogurtin kanssa (ja se on makea  :) ), mutta olisi hienoa paistaa tavallista marjapiirakkaa.
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Ann Marie

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Re: Finnish learning thread!
« Reply #254 on: June 28, 2015, 01:33:51 AM »
No, I was "I think?" as a question, because I've never seen kermaviili so am not sure.  It's probably not an acceptable construction in Finnish... not sure it is in English, either.

I can conjugate simple present tense pretty decently now, except for consonant gradation.  :D 

You still want to know about the sour.. dairy product thing.  I can't figure "jo tekin", but marjapiiraka must be a berry pie.  Can you use yogurt in it, maybe? (It is sweet.)  But would be great fried usually berry pie.

Hmm.  Do you have a recipe? 
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