Poll

What do you think the state of things is beyond Scandinavia?

More of the Silent World: Trolls, beasts and giants everywhere
7 (16.7%)
A few groups of humans, but mostly wilderness
14 (33.3%)
USA and other superpowers are relatively intact
0 (0%)
Scorched Earth: nothing, not even grosslings, is alive
0 (0%)
Plenty of places like Scandinavia, but isolated
21 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Voting closed: July 03, 2015, 03:28:37 PM

Author Topic: Survivor communities outside the known world  (Read 258764 times)

Oripoke

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1185 on: April 24, 2019, 09:36:59 AM »
From the way I see it, certain factors seem to contribute to survival from the Rash...

1. Isolation. This is the biggest one. Iceland's decision to close its borders early in the spread of the Rash is why it exists as the capital of the known world right now. Any nation that is land-locked, or has a border that is difficult to fully secure, is going to fall victim in one way or another.

2. Military. It takes a coordinated effort to repel the beasts, trolls, and giants that the Rash produces. In the prologue we see people rolling out barbed-wire fence; only a nation with a well-established and organized military will be able to effectively mobilize in time to save itself.

3. Resources. As we saw in the last chapter, having a lack of food to share among the survivors will lead to mass starvation. Also, societies need power, raw materials, fresh water, etc. This is another reason Iceland survived; in modern day times they have access to nearly limitless geothermal energy.

4. Community. The only way people survive is if they stick together. That's why the families from the prologue survived and have descendants. They relied on one another, and were able to make it through, despite losing nearly everything.

5. Spirituality. It's clear that the Rash led to the resurgence of traditional beliefs and magic. It's also clear that there is a spiritual component in the Rash's creation. If a cure exists, it's as likely to come from the spiritual side, as from the scientific side. For this reason I think that traditional beliefs and religious practices play a key role in surviving societies.

Dilandu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1186 on: July 09, 2019, 10:31:01 AM »
I would be curious to see what happened around Chernobyl.

Well, considering that Trolls didn't like even the average sunlinght, we could safely assume that they like ionizing radiation even less. So, the irradiated areas are probably troll-free. Of course, humans aren't very rad-resistant also, but the common animals have too short lifespan to be seriously affected (that's why Chernobyl area turned into lush wildlife preserve - the average wild animals life is too short to be seriously affected by radiation)

IMHO, the belts of irradiated soil, several miles thick would be near-absolute defense against any trolls. Again, argument for North Korea: they could easily made "cobalt dust belt" against both South and China.

Dilandu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1187 on: July 09, 2019, 10:34:23 AM »
You're again still forgetting animal vectors. Borders won't stop those.

No, but they would limit them to the tolerable degree.

Noi

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1188 on: July 12, 2019, 06:31:07 PM »
The thought of North Korea going MacArthur on itself to keep out the trolls is actually really innovative, do you think that that strategy could be used elsewhere as well?

Demopans

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1189 on: July 13, 2019, 12:55:30 PM »
The thought of North Korea going MacArthur on itself to keep out the trolls is actually really innovative, do you think that that strategy could be used elsewhere as well?

So long as a country is composed mainly of desert(if trolls don’t do well in extreme cold, they won’t do well when it’s hot and arid) it is maybe possible.

Dilandu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1190 on: July 20, 2019, 10:57:38 AM »
The thought of North Korea going MacArthur on itself to keep out the trolls is actually really innovative, do you think that that strategy could be used elsewhere as well?

Well, you need to have enough radioactive materials to create widespread contaminated zone. And, you better be isolated geographically, so you could simplify the cordoning.

Akshu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1191 on: October 15, 2019, 07:47:13 PM »
I've been reading replies, taking notes, and preparing this response for days, so be prepared for a long one.

Firstly, comparisons can be unfair. Modern Japan for example is not the same as feudal Japan and will (like Iceland) struggle to feed its population, so that historical comparison can only go so far. Assuming population drops will be equal across the board isn't really fair either, not every place would face the same exact challenges as Iceland, Denmark, and Fenno-Scandia or face them to the same extent.

Steingímur Þórðarsen (the in universe creator of the map of the known world) is not omniscient so some details may not be absolutely set in stone, but some interesting details that some people may not have noticed are that some islands in the Shetlands and an isolated island in the Baltic are marked as cleared on the map. Someone who didn't notice this asked how it would be possible that Iceland would contact Norway before the Shetlands, to which Minna replied that the population of the Shetlands and Outer Hebrides could have been assimilated into the Nordic countries. Some people seem to take the possibilities Minna mentioned as definitive proof that the people of the British Isles have been entirely infected or assimilated but I'd like to bring to light the heresy unorthodox interpretation that Minna was just exploring potential explanations and there could still be Celtic or Anglophone survivors out there in the fanon or canon. The Baltic island is something of an anomaly, as (IIRC) it is uninhabited, however it might be connected to the small Eesti speaking population shown on the language tree psge.

We don't know much about how patient zero contracted the rash, where they came from, and most importantly whether the people back there were already dealing with the rash or a related strain of it. If there's another place besides Spain that the rash is spreading from or another disease closely related to the Rash, it could be very important information on what places could survive to year 90. (Unimportant sidenote: Even if someone else had contracted the rash earlier, patient zero would still be the first patient diagnosed with the disease)

Demographic changes (like the surge of neopaganism in the Nordic countries) are to be expected in other places for both Doylist and Watsonian reasons.

Communal support, culture, religion, magic, the gods' protection (a phrase including, though not necessarily limited to, immunity) are important to survival in the SSSS world, but we can't really predict how they would change, and to say a population homogeneously fails in each of these respects and couldn't change even if it were life and death would probably be more than a little bit offensive.

Thematic/narrative importance trumps all else. Expect any existing survivor groups to follow the established themes and trends and not disrupt the neoviking narrative or linguistics exploration too much. That means don't expect expansive military, cultural, or economic powers or alliance to overshadow the known world.

Mutual support with nearby survivor groups, as the Nordic countries give to each other, may not be strictly necessary to surviving to year 90, but they sure would be helpful.

Isolation, however is also helpful, as it may allow a location to avoid the rash in its entirety (as Iceland did) or atleast buy time to respond to it. Japan, Madagascar, and Iceland were known to have closed their borders early, before the news of how bad the disease actually was had even broke. Were their respective leaders privy to more information than the news let out at that time?

Although doing a page 51 did prevent Iceland from ever getting the rash, we now know that the ideal procedure would be to have protective equipment and quarantines as Iceland does by year 90, however early on it may be impractical to supply everyone with proper equipment and to quarantine all refugees. Existing public health, sanitation, CBRN, civil defense, and similar resources would be very helpful.

A central government that is authoritarian enough or regional governments that are independent enough to enforce quarantines and control movements within the country would be beneficial in preventing the disease from spreading throughout the country.

Topography, ecology, and climate will play important roles in resistance against trolls and beasts once the rash has spread through a country. Topography will be important for defending and reclaiming territory. Climate will be important as trolls prefer dark, warm and damp places, although beasts are more resistant to the climate than trolls are. The ecology is important, as some animals may serve as vectors for the disease (most notably mammals, though ticks, fleas, and mosquitoes could also carry infected fluids, even if they're immune) while other animals (most notably felids) can help eliminate these vectors. Plants and animals can also provide transportation and important resources for food, shelter, fuel, etc. By year 90, atleast, ecosystems have recovered enough to amply supply what small pockets of civilization may be left. Other important resources a location might have for survivors include drinking water, shelters, armaments, transportation, minerals, fuels, etc.

Population density is another key factor, as it can generally be assumed that lower population densities won't spread the rash ad quickly, however it should be noted that statistics on population density are very easily skewed when looking at large areas including major cities or by including or excluding water from the calculations of the area. It's also worth considering that if the population enters a panic, they may emigrate out of large population centers, possibly bringing the rash with them.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 12:27:49 PM by Akshu »

wavewright62

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1192 on: October 16, 2019, 08:04:51 PM »
You make insightful comments, Akshu, and even if some of them have been hashed previously, it's still quite worthwhile as we get Minnions who know about their local conditions to chip in.
The dispersal of people from population centers out to more remote areas is a factor in most areas, but you get places like Russia, Canada and parts of the US where once the fuel runs out, so does the dispersal (other than a trickle who prepare themselves to walk).  The Prologue Swedes counted themselves very lucky to find an operational petrol station, and it was probably the only thing that saved their bacon.
In more densely settled areas, what will enable a population to survive, alongside basic food/water/shelter, is a core of immune survivors banding together.  You can try to protect any individual non-immunes, but by and large the ratio of non-immune to immune must maintain at a low level. 
I once had to try to project how a place like New Jersey (for fanfic purposes) would have any surviving population at all.  There is snow in the winter, but truly deep freezes (below about 10F) are sporadic and not very long-lasting - freezing rain is more common.  There is a combination of farm/forest country and dense population centers very close to one another, and abundant wild & domesticated mammals (deer, squirrels, cows, dogs dogs dogs, horses, chipmunks, raccoons, skunks, moles, mice, mean-ass rats, etc etc).  (Swathes of Europe are like this, too.)   What I came up with was the same result you get in SSSS - magic arising.  If you delve too deeply in to the science part of the science fiction, of course there's no way an area like this won't be wiped out.  Aided by magic are the Scandinavians are, well then maybe. 
Our Icelandic skalds were no doubt one-eyed in their view of the beneficence of their gods. (Pun intended.)  They likely had the power to boost their signal enough to receive communcations from afar, but very few places would have had enough power to broadcast to them, let alone get over the troll interference.  The Nordic Council will not have approved funding for exploration (as they very nearly didn't for our protagonists) of the likes of Scotland, and probably received word about those pink islands from ships who happened past that took it upon themselves to have a recce.
The pinkish Baltic islands on the map are present-day part of Finland.  There are lots of Finns currently who also know Estonian, and I suspect at least some retention among the general populace has given rise to the tiny Eestikeel leaf on Minna's tree, rather than a refugee population migrating there.  (I think Minna's giving short shrift to Russian speakers, but you can say that of all sorts of minority populations currently within Scandinavia.)
I'm out of time, but it's certainly fun to speculate!
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Akshu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1193 on: October 17, 2019, 08:29:10 PM »
If passing ships just took it upon themselves to investigate an island that hadn't been inhabited since the Soviet navy was forced away from it during WWII and did so thoroughly enough that Steingímur Þórðarsen heard of and trusted their efforts, is there any specific reason they wouldn't have had the same incentive to explore Seiskari just the next door over? I don't think we really can know the history/histories of the surviving Estonian speakers in the Nordic Countries or why that one particular island is marked as cleansed, but it sure would make an interesting story, if some of the Estonians had come by way of that island. Similarly, the only languages confirmed to have no monolingual speakers in the known world by year 90 or so few monolingual speakers as to be invisible are on the Finnic branch, (and even then you could make an argument about not knowing how bilingual people are presented on that chart.) The rest of the languages are simply not shown, leaving the possibilities open.

In my previous I tried to point out that factors like magic and gods really can't be accounted for and could really be taken in any direction for plot or thematic reasons, but I would still like to evaluate how the other factors would play into the likelihood of some places surviving. I rehashed issues that have been brought up because I wanted to try to investigate the pros and cons that different regions would have in a bit more of a systematic way. But felt that existing lists were a bit sparse, (Oripoke's list was the most complete on the thread, but two of the only five points outlined were things I wouldn't feel comfortable making a judgement on)

For example:

As the starting point of the infection in Europe, as well as a place with historical contact with vikings, I think Iberia could play an important role in the story, especially with future excursions into the silent lands planned, though I'm honestly not sure whether survivor communities in Iberia would be of any help or hindrance to the role that it would play.

Iberia itself is large enough to support a fairly substantial community of survivors, but all their maritime borders are blocked off by high population areas, making communications through any route other that the Pyrenees difficult.

Spain couldn't isolate itself from the rash, as the rash was already in the country by the time they had identified the danger it posed.

Iberia is made up of first world countries with substantial resources put to public health, sanitation, and NRBQ and a degree of independence among their federated provinces, but these resources likely couldn't be brought into action swiftly enough to prevent the rash spreading throughout Iberia's major cities (they certainly didn't prevent it from spreading out from Spain.)

The topography of Iberia does include numerous defensible mountain ranges, some of which are high enough for snow, but in general the winters of Iberia wouldn't be as harsh to the trolls as in Fenno-Scandia, but we don't know how the trolls would handle the warm, dry, sunny summers of a Mediterranean climate. Probably the most interesting part of the ecology of Iberia is the possibility of a recovery of the Iberian Lynx. Natural resources in Iberia include coal and other minerals, fisheries, rivers (with numerous hydroelectric projects) Spanish farmlands (though many of these require irrigation) and Portuguese forests.

I think Spain is one of the most interesting cases of population density/sparsity, where there are some of the densest populations in Europe in their cities but almost 0-2 people per km² just a few kilometers away and stretching through most of the country. Because Spain encountered the rash first, I like to imagine the possibility that those who weren't immune didn't have time to bring the rash with them out into the countryside, and the immune only had a shirt distance to get away from the trolls and giants that would form in those places. The biggest problem is how these survivors would travel to eachother, as Iberia lacks the petrochemical resources to keep cars running for long, but perhaps some steam locomotives could be brought back into use?

wavewright62

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1194 on: October 17, 2019, 10:25:28 PM »
Patients Zero were 11 refugees illegally on a boat to Spain, presumably from North Africa.  The infection map that appeared on page 4 (published in Norway on Day Zero-minus-One) featured Spain and North Africa, but other coastal areas around the Mediterranean including Corsica, parts of France and Italy and (is that maybe Croatia?), Cyprus, & Turkey. 
This strongly suggests that Patients Zero weren't really the first in Europe. 
Spoiler: can of worms • show
The Danish media report on page 14 (four days later in canon, five if you count a day's worth of reporting and assembling a newspaper), by ignoring other parts of Europe that were similarly affected at the same time, were maybe having a bit of a beat-up at the expense of refugees.  This, combined with the infamous actions of the Icelandic coast guard, brings up some deep-seated racism and/or xenophobia in European society.  The Icelandic skalds post-Rash can only indulge those impulses on the Finns.  Let's leave that, though.


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Akshu

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1195 on: October 19, 2019, 09:18:49 AM »
I suppose there is a possibility that the rash arrived at multiple locations around the same time, (though I don't understand why that would have to happen *before* patient 0 arrived in Spain,) but I think its also possible that the rash arrived in Spain and spread from there via Europe's extensive and busy air transportation networks (as there isn't much overland traffic across the Pyrenees) and that the warm Mediterranean climate simply accelerated the disease's progression, so infected individuals in those areas were more likely to be diagnosable earlier than those in other areas.
The ship and inhabitants shown on page 50 don't exactly look like your typical refugees smuggled out of WANA and the origin of patient zero is kept as an ambiguous additional path of infection rather than pinned on West Asia or North Africa, so the interpretation that Minna is writing a story where the Mohammedan ruin Europe seems more than a bit of a stretch to me.

Keep Looking

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1196 on: October 21, 2019, 08:02:06 AM »
The discussions here are really interesting. As someone living in Western Australia, I have a lot of theories about where and how settlements here would survive. Since the more populated bits of Western Australia are separated from any other decent numbers of people by thousands of kilometres of desert, plains or ocean, there wouldn’t be too much worry about trolls spreading from, say, over east, so I think the survival of the state really depends on whether and how many infected people made it here when the rash was initially spreading. Also, our coastline is a migration route for humpback whales so there’d be a real danger from huge whale beasts in the waters. Food isn’t a worry, at least in the south west - we’ve got enough farmland to sustain the population. I don’t know whether Perth would survive - we do have an obnoxious amount of sunshine so the weather isn’t exactly favourable to trolls, and it wouldn’t be too hard to fortify the rivermouth at Fremantle so that sea beasts couldn’t come up the river. Then again, Perth is located on a coastal plain and size-wise is very big, so it’d be pretty hard to defend. A lot of the smaller towns and cities around the south west would have a decent chance, as they’re much more defendable, especially if fire was used to cleanse the surrounding forests (which are extremely flammable). There are some places that would be pretty dangerous - the limestone ridge down in the capes area in the very southwest is full of damp, dark caves - perfect troll nests. Up north, the main issue would be food, as the land and weather there isn’t exactly favourable for farming. However, most towns up there are extremely isolated (hundreds or thousands of kilometres apart) so they wouldn’t have to worry much about troll attacks.
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Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1197 on: October 21, 2019, 09:57:52 AM »
Emily-Rose, i think the main risk in WA would be, as you say, in Perth, and along the whale migration route. Broome would be pretty bad, what with international tourism and the heat, and I think you would get waves of new boat people fleeing from Asia and bringing the disease with them. Also I reckon that then as now there would be a lot of both legal and illegal fishing from surprisingly far away. Even nowadays there are boats sneaking in after trepang, pearls, trochus and other useful stuff, and there would likely be, after Y90, still quite a few people up further north who remembered the stories their great-grandfathers told about how easy it was to sneak ashore on the western and northern coasts of Australia.

Then there would be the FIFO workers being brought in to work at the big mines and other projects. Those can come from anywhere, but a lot of them nowadays come from in or near the big east coast cities. Not to mention backpackers from all over Europe, America and Asia. Or people coming across from points east on the Overland train.

I reckon survival chances would be better further out away from the cities. Then there are places like Kalgoorlie, or further east, Giles, Mintabie and Coober Pedy. And I wonder how Rottnest Island and Christmas Island survived?
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jackissocool

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1198 on: October 31, 2019, 10:18:18 AM »
I think you'd have a lot of survivor communities in the middle east, especially the southern and western parts of the Arab Peninsula and in Iran. Those areas are hot, dry, and mountainous. Lots of linguistic continuity in the two regions (not between them) and plenty of ability to isolate themselves through natural barriers.

Róisín

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Re: Survivor communities outside the known world
« Reply #1199 on: October 31, 2019, 10:47:14 AM »
Yeah, I think that dry heat would be as effective as icy winters in restraining grosslings. Several of the fanwriters on Archive of Our Own have played with this concept.
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