Language learning discussion

[Hrollo]

Nah, it's like any sound that doesn't exist in your language: it takes practice, but there's nothing "impossible" about it.

Another thing that might help: in american English, what is written as t/d/tt/dd between vowels is often pronounced as a short rolled r (with just one roll, it's called a "flap") in practice.

If all fails, I'm sure there are speech coachs that can teach you, in an efficient way, to make the sound [but for some moneys].

[JoB]

Another thing that might help: in american English, what is written as t/d/tt/dd between vowels is often pronounced as a short rolled r (with just one roll, it's called a "flap") in practice.

... I honestly have no idea how any part of "idiot maddened by eating mutton" could possibly be construed to sound like an 'R' ... ? ???

[Fimbulvarg]

... I honestly have no idea how any part of "idiot maddened by eating mutton" could possibly be construed to sound like an 'R' ... ? ???

The alveolar tap/flap is not too far away from t/d when it comes to tongue placement

[Deirdre]

Alveolar flap reminds me only of visiting SLP when I was little and couldn't pronounce Polish "r" sound correctly (well, more like at all). We started with learning that, and then went further and further, up to the standard burring sound. I remember it as pretty comfortable to speak, though can't really recall it fully at the moment. What a pity.

And I came here in the first place becouse my relatives and friends don't understand me (I love how pathetic it sounds!).
I very often have a strange feeling that the language I use is unnatural. That every language used anywhere is unnatural in fact. Like, how and why did one group of people choose to describe world using the particular sounds, totally different that the other group? Why did anyone choose to systematize rules of that code? Does it have any sense that I make a chain of sounds to describe something, as it carries the meaning only to those using the same language code? Doesn't it mean all languages mean objectivly nothing?
Ouch, it started getting existential. No suprise people around me have enaugh of it.

Whatever, maybe I should have just chosen to study some linguistics instead of musicology.

[Varjohaltia]

Like, how and why did one group of people choose to describe world using the particular sounds, totally different that the other group? Why did anyone choose to systematize rules of that code? Does it have any sense that I make a chain of sounds to describe something, as it carries the meaning only to those using the same language code? Doesn't it mean all languages mean objectivly nothing?
Ouch, it started getting existential. No suprise people around me have enaugh of it.

Whatever, maybe I should have just chosen to study some linguistics instead of musicology.

Linguistics, speech pathology and most importantly of all, I really recommend you take some philosophy if you can.

While I'm not too familiar with the field, the nature of abstraction and relationship between abstraction and reality, the nature of reality etc. certainly are things people are trying to make sense of.

Also remember that (much like music and other art!) language conveys imprecise ideas and emotions, which are interpreted by the audience in a way that is unlikely to be exactly what the speaker intended, and the meaning of words, words themselves and the sound of words is constantly changing.

[Rainy]

About the rolled r's: It's also quite possible to have the opposite problem. I'm pretty much fluent in English (it's my second language), but when I speak I have the most horrible rolled r's. I've been trying to find the correct, soft, non-rolled r, but it just... isn't there.

[Deirdre]

At the moment I can make almost all sorts of r sounds needed in the languages I speak (though I've been told my German sounds a bit Austrian thanks to r pronunciantion... Any German native to explain the differance?), and consider it a blessing.

Currently, as I've mentioned somewhere on the Forum, I'm trying to have fun with Icelandic. It's suprisingly easy in terms of basic grammar, writing looks more scary than it is, at least for me, but THE PRONUNCIATION. What a nightmare.

[ruth]

At the moment I can make almost all sorts of r sounds needed in the languages I speak (though I've been told my German sounds a bit Austrian thanks to r pronunciantion... Any German native to explain the differance?), and consider it a blessing.

Currently, as I've mentioned somewhere on the Forum, I'm trying to have fun with Icelandic. It's suprisingly easy in terms of basic grammar, writing looks more scary than it is, at least for me, but THE PRONUNCIATION. What a nightmare.

ahahaha, can you pronounce the belted L? that's one of my favourite sounds, and also one of the most difficult ones in icelandic, i think. i'm still not sure that i'm getting it totally right.

if i remember correctly, austrian dialects of german use an alveolar trill (more similar to spanish, italian, slavic Rs) rather than a uvular trill (more similar to a french or danish R).

[Fen Shen]

if i remember correctly, austrian dialects of german use an alveolar trill (more similar to spanish, italian, slavic Rs) rather than a uvular trill (more similar to a french or danish R).

That's right, but not only for Austrian dialects, also some others from "down south". For me (northern German here) it just sounds just like "ok, not from here" but still perfectly understandable German.

[Nimphy]

ahahaha, can you pronounce the belted L? that's one of my favourite sounds, and also one of the most difficult ones in icelandic, i think. i'm still not sure that i'm getting it totally right.

if i remember correctly, austrian dialects of german use an alveolar trill (more similar to spanish, italian, slavic Rs) rather than a uvular trill (more similar to a french or danish R).

Oooh! Then I like Austrians, their R is totally pronounceable!

[Sunflower]

Hello, all.  Here's a new question.  (You may think it's more appropriate for the French or German threads -- if so, please feel free to send me there.)

My brother works for the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. and this summer will be deployed to Frankfurt, Germany, with his family.  His children are 11 1/2 (boy) and 13 (girl).  They're currently taking French in school, though not very enthusiastically.  They will probably start learning German, although they'll attend an American school overseas.

Any suggestions for pleasant, entertaining ways to learn German and French?  They're both bright, adorable kids who already speak bits of Spanish and Arabic, and have traveled all over the world.  Their constraints are time (they're in a demanding college-prep curriculum) and interest.

So I'd like to suggest fun books for them (e.g. the Tintin books in the original French -- they already love them in English), Web videos, music, etc. -- especially in German, which I've never studied.

Ideas?

[Solovei]

Hello, all.  Here's a new question.  (You may think it's more appropriate for the French or German threads -- if so, please feel free to send me there.)

My brother works for the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. and this summer will be deployed to Frankfurt, Germany, with his family.  His children are 11 1/2 (boy) and 13 (girl).  They're currently taking French in school, though not very enthusiastically.  They will probably start learning German, although they'll attend an American school overseas.

Any suggestions for pleasant, entertaining ways to learn German and French?  They're both bright, adorable kids who already speak bits of Spanish and Arabic, and have traveled all over the world.  Their constraints are time (they're in a demanding college-prep curriculum) and interest.

So I'd like to suggest fun books for them (e.g. the Tintin books in the original French -- they already love them in English), Web videos, music, etc. -- especially in German, which I've never studied.

Ideas?

Do they like video games? Duolingo does a good job gamifying language learning and a lot of the folks on the forum here use it. There are also people who put up dubbed versions of Disney songs on Youtube, and those seem to be quite popular. 

[Fimbulvarg]

Any suggestions for pleasant, entertaining ways to learn German and French?  They're both bright, adorable kids who already speak bits of Spanish and Arabic, and have traveled all over the world.  Their constraints are time (they're in a demanding college-prep curriculum) and interest.

Ideas?

Learing shouldn't have to be fun for people to take an interest in it, but what Solovei said about duolinguo is a great idea. There's a lot of friendly rivalry driving people to spend time with those things here on the forum. Maybe some sibling or family rivalry could help those guys take an interest in it too.

[FrogEater]

Woah... No, I won't try to write in English this way! Rather learn Finnish.
You might enjoy this[url] from JavaScript guru Douglas Crockford...

[JoB]

So I'd like to suggest fun books for them (e.g. the Tintin books in the original French -- they already love them in English), Web videos, music, etc. -- especially in German, which I've never studied.

Sorry, I got nothing for German (as I learnt it from my parents all through my childhood and merely used it while reading books).

If you'ld like to introduce them to the quirks (funny double entendres etc.) of (modern) French, I'ld suggest replacing Tintin with Asterix - and the old Gaston Lagaffe books, if you can get them. (The newer ones are, alas, outright money-milking necrophilia.)