Author Topic: Character Development: Lalli  (Read 78793 times)

LooNEY_DAC

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Re: Is Lalli autistic?
« Reply #285 on: March 19, 2019, 08:33:42 PM »
The whole society's got to be kind of PTSD, don't they?

I suppose by now some younger people living in some of the more sheltered locations don't feel like it; but it's only been 90 years, and I expect the society as a whole is still reeling.

Bear in mind the whole Silent World is still full of trolls who used to be people, many of whom were children, and almost all of whom were somebody's beloved family members: and all of them still in pain. And the still-human survivors know this -- and also know that the same thing may happen, at any time, to themselves or their loved ones.

So not only is the society still dealing with the reverberations of having almost everybody either die or trollify over a period of a few weeks -- but it isn't over.
True indeed. The fact that it isn't over would haunt everyone.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the above drives a not insignificant number of people to self-medicate with that oldest of home cures: booze. This brings its own set of pathologies, of course, but that's never stopped people before.

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Re: Is Lalli autistic?
« Reply #286 on: March 21, 2019, 02:40:57 PM »
While naturally I can't know for certain, I've sort of headcannoned it. I've was diagnosed with aspergers a few years ago, and I almost immediately picked up on some autistic traits in him. Though I understand Minna not wanting to comfirm it; ad she said, it would sort of lock her into how to write him, and I don't think an official diagnosis would make sense in the story.

Seconding the idea that Omni might have social anxiety of some sort ( maybe even agoraphobic, but That's sort of extreme). PTSD maybe, but as others have said, probably a lot of people not living in big safe areas are suffering some.

Snoots Dwagon

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Re: Is Lalli autistic?
« Reply #287 on: March 25, 2019, 11:06:40 AM »
I would ordinarily say Lalli is autistic... except we have to realize he's grown up in unusual circumstances, is a mage, and doesn't understand the language of most people around him.   Half his mind is in one world and the other half in another.   So autistic?  No, I'm guessing not.  Just different.

The fact that he hears voices... well, nevermind.  ; )
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Re: Is Lalli autistic?
« Reply #288 on: May 18, 2019, 09:02:23 PM »
Yes yes yes!!! Headcanoned this almost right off the bat when I started reading a year-ish ago!! I'm not on the spectrum myself, but my brother, dad, late grandfather (probably, but he was never diagnosed), and... Friend? (might be more, might be less, I'm confused and prolly so are they) all are, and watching Lalli's interactions with the other characters really reminds me of my relationships with all these people.

Lalli and Tuuri in particular - I love the way Minna portrays their relationship, as it reminds me of my brother and I. They obviously care about each other, and being the only Finns on the quest (as well as all that how-their-family-collectively-kicked-the-bucket stuff) would bring them closer together, but even then Tuuri has no idea how Lalli's brain really works and Lalli doesn't seem to know how to express himself, or even to see the point of trying. And that leads to a lot of frustration and maybe even resentment on both ends, even though they're not trying to hurt each other (most of the time... I mean I barely have a relationship with my brother, but I'd never smack him in the face for staring at someone, Tuuri).
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phyrestorm999

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Re: Is Lalli autistic?
« Reply #289 on: May 22, 2019, 11:29:21 PM »
Yep.  Lalli is totally one of us.  I don't blame Minna for not making it official, though, so people can't go nuts on her in the future if she ever has him do something perceived as "un-autistic."
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Luna Fowler

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #290 on: August 12, 2019, 06:19:59 PM »


Quote
However, lacking that understanding doesn't make him indifferent to Emil's distress. Uta Frith describes this as "instinctive sympathy": perceiving a person to be sad=>do something to cheer them up, regardless whether this is an appropriate thing to do given the situation/the reason they are sad. So yes, Lalli remembered that Emil cares a lot about his hair, but he wrongly assumed fixing it would brighten Emil's mood due to poor theory of mind. 

Okay, late answer, comment, reply (?), but this is something that has been bugging me quite a bit, not least because this kind of thinking has led to various people not understanding me IRL even without a diagnosis to blame their lack of understanding on (I'm honestly afraid what will happen if/when they have one).

For one thing, given Emil's reaction beforehand I'd assume it's extremely unlikely Lalli didn't know that the troll was what upset him, the problem I personally would think Lalli has is that he has no idea how to appropriately show that he cares and wants comfort him and thus falls back on helping Emil with something he knows Emil cares about in the hope that Emil will correctly realize that Lalli cares about him. Assuming Emil would be completely fine after his hair is fixed would, in my view as a problably-autistic, person be extremely unreasonable,the problem is that NTs tend to misinterpret a lot of what we do anyways so Lalli may have gotten yelled at for trying to comfort people quite a lot before and is thus desperate to seek what seems like the safest way to at least not upset the person further.

So the takeaway is that it's quite interesting what we both assumed?
You, as a NT (?) seeing Lalli as autistic thought that he assumed fixing his hair would fix everything.
I, as an autistic person (probably autistic, definitely having some autistic tendencies) assumed that he did it to show that he cares for Emil in general, maybe with a bit of an attempt at avoiding potential fallout if it wasn't appropriate (with, admittedly, forgetting that maybe putting your hand on their shoulder may be a better idea, but then, Emil is a weird foreigner to Lalli and forgetting obvious things is probably part of executive functioning difficulties...or is that just me being an idiot?).

Then again, maybe there's a deeper misunderstanding here as well?
When I try to cheer people up, I very much don't expect them to feel fine immediately, I know that's basically never how it works, but I do want them to know that I'm here for them if they need someone and/or that they don't have to be miserable alone, that somebody at the very least cares about them.
If you go by the assumption that people immediately feel better then it obviously seems much more bizarre (though that assumption in and of itself seems bizarre to me).

Still, that kind of misunderstanding is what I'd use as further evidence that he's on the spectrum since that is basically exemplary of the language barrier one has to face when trying to communicate across neurotypes, in either direction.

Róisín

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #291 on: August 12, 2019, 07:52:56 PM »
As someone who is not autistic but is close to several people who are, that seems to me a very reasonable interpretation. My feel for Lalli’s actions would be that he is offering such comfort as he can to a person for whom he feels instinctive sympathy, but whose culture he does not understand at all.
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #292 on: August 13, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
Still, that kind of misunderstanding is what I'd use as further evidence that he's on the spectrum since that is basically exemplary of the language barrier one has to face when trying to communicate across neurotypes, in either direction.

This reminds me of something that I noticed a while ago: Lalli is monolingual in Finnish, a language that is from a different family entirely than the other Nordic languages, and gibberish from their perspective. The rest of the main cast is fluent in at least one Indo-European Nordic language (mostly because Icelandic is the setting's English). The parallel than can be made is strangely spot-on, in my opinion.
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Luna Fowler

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #293 on: August 13, 2019, 08:44:45 PM »
So, Tuuri would be the NT that grew up with an autistic sibling and learnt how to interpret?
Onni would be the one that sort of learned to mask and speak NT but still doesn't quite "get it" (Icelandic with heavy accent)=

This could actually kind of work really well as a metaphor.

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #294 on: August 14, 2019, 01:12:51 PM »
[Obligatory reminder that Lalli is cousins with Onni and Tuuri because I regularly see people who genuinely get their family relations wrong]

I never thought of extending the metaphor to Onni's accent (or to his and Tuuri's mutilinguism), but it does work indeed. My own intepreatation of the languages spoken by the Hotakainens can be summed up as "They all speak Finnish, yet are not speaking the same language".
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 01:14:24 PM by Grade E cat »
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Suominoita

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #295 on: August 19, 2019, 03:29:17 PM »
I'm really happy that Lalli's finally getting the validation he needs. But at the same time it still doesn't feel totally satisfactory. I'd really like to see him learn that he doesn't need to be perfect all of the time and that it's allowed to make mistakes.

Don't you think Onni needs that lesson more? He's the one who said "Grandma made one mistake and see what happened. We're not allowed to make mistakes."

Harsh words... though, his point was that you don't get to use "everyone is allowed to make mistakes" as an excuse when things go wrong.
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #296 on: December 19, 2020, 05:19:43 PM »
I just read all 20 pages of this thread and...
That was a ride...

It's interesting to see how attitudes towards autistic headcanon/interpretation have changed over time, some of those earlier comments were quite painful to read, it's nice to see more people just being kinda chill about it rather than trying to justify why he can't possibly be autistic as well as traumatised, introverted or poorly socialised (especially because autistic people can end up in cycles of poor socialisation where both issues compound into each other)
I suppose it'd be nice to see a bunch of autistic people talking about this rather than NTs/NTs with autistic relatives but I'm sure that discussion is happening somewhere.

Anyway, I'm team "Lalli is autistic because I'm autistic and relate to him and read him as such"
Also I was literally introduced to this story by an autistic friend of mine who read him as autistic and wanted me to enjoy such a full character