Character Development: Lalli

[Esko Oksanen]

If it was referring to the whole mage chat room connection thing, then I think it's been disproved already. Because, *ahem*, Braidy was there...

I wasn't referring to the mage chat room connection thingy. I was just referring to Finnish folks in general but you do have a point...

[Sunflower]

On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters.  I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum. 

I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
...
And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.

Lalli’s always seemed so emotionally detached from everything. Yeah, he’s not always apathetic, he does react when something startles him (like a sea monster) and is curious, but he seems to go about things mechanically on a need to do basis. He’s hungry, he needs to survive, so he steals some meat. He senses a troll, he needs to survive, he alarms the crew. But he never wants anything (for) himself. (aside from going home) Until now! He really wants those cookies.

...I just can't decide whom I love most. Every time I think this character is my favourite, another one does something and I'm like 'No He/She's favouritest!!‘

[Eich]

On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters.  I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum. 

I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
...
And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.

Lalli’s always seemed so emotionally detached from everything. Yeah, he’s not always apathetic, he does react when something startles him (like a sea monster) and is curious, but he seems to go about things mechanically on a need to do basis. He’s hungry, he needs to survive, so he steals some meat. He senses a troll, he needs to survive, he alarms the crew. But he never wants anything (for) himself. (aside from going home) Until now! He really wants those cookies.

...I just can't decide whom I love most. Every time I think this character is my favourite, another one does something and I'm like 'No He/She's favouritest!!‘

Hmm.  I don't think he warned the crew to help only himself.  He seemed to be doing something to help everybody, with exactly that intent. 
At least that's how I looked at it.  Lalli has his human moments.

[Korppi]

Let's hope he won't do to Emil what his old namesake did to Bishop Henry.

[Crazybean]

Let's hope he won't do to Emil what his old namesake did to Bishop Henry.

I doubt Lalli would turn to homicide.

Hmm.  I don't think he warned the crew to help only himself.  He seemed to be doing something to help everybody, with exactly that intent. 
At least that's how I looked at it.  Lalli has his human moments.

I didn't mean to suggest that Lalli is a sociopath or something. He does try to help Emil on the train, poor guy just didn't get it . He's just dispassionate and mechanical about how he does things.
But I do think he's
emotionally detached.

[Korppi]

I doubt Lalli would turn to homicide.

Neither do I. I just wanted to point out the historical figure for the sake of humor.

[Piney]

On p. 230, Crazybean had lots of keen observations on our beloved characters.  I'm distributing them among each person's thread here on the Forum. 

I just need to gush about Mikkel. I nearly died when he gave Lalli a *cookie* of all things!
...
And Lalli! At first his behaviour seemed out of character and then I realized: This was the first time he looks happy. It’s like the cookie broke through the barrier between Lalli and the world around him. For the first time he displays a desire [for] himself.

I think it might be accurate to say that it's the first time he's displayed an indulgence for himself. Lalli doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would indulge himself very often. Lalli's emotional response to the cookie made me wonder if he's ever had treats like that before, that he could remember - if they just didn't have cookies in Keuruu (it seems like they'd be a luxury anyway) or if Lalli just never bothered to eat any (because he's supposedly a picky eater?).

[P__]

I think it might be accurate to say that it's the first time he's displayed an indulgence for himself. Lalli doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would indulge himself very often. Lalli's emotional response to the cookie made me wonder if he's ever had treats like that before, that he could remember - if they just didn't have cookies in Keuruu (it seems like they'd be a luxury anyway) or if Lalli just never bothered to eat any (because he's supposedly a picky eater?).

suddenly Lalli discovered that pleasure existed :p

[SeaAngel]

On a different note: I wonder how Lalli will react when (and if) at the end of the story, the group breaks up, and everyone goes their native land.
Of course, there is the possibility that they won't break up, that they will continue to operate as the most successful and renown exploration group in the known world, but I find it unlikely. Tuuri would love to see her brother again, Sigrun has obligations back home, Emil might want to try different things and advance his career...

Of course everyone would be sad then, but I think Lalli might be the most confused.
By the end of the story, he will probably see his teamates as family. We already saw him seperated by a family member before without any drama, but he didn't have any choice then. What about at the end of the story?
Would he prefer to return home with Tuuri and Onni?
Even if he has made good friends with Emil by then, feels super comfortable with him, and completely trusts him?
Or would he rather follow true happiness (aka Mikkel and his cookies)?
Every other character can probably make these kind of decisions more easily, or at least find middle ground via trips and mail. What about Lalli? Will he do what he is told? What he is told by who? Will he make his own decision?

[Richard Weir]

Some very interesting thoughts! But don't be too eager to find out, we don't want Minna to hurry through her story!

[Bouncey]

I have a theory about Lalli's touch-sensitivity and other autism-spectrum traits: I have met people who are very sensitive to energy projected / given off by others. They feel the presence and emotional state of others, more strongly when those others are numerous and/or close to or touching them. Seems to me that that type of sensitivity, combined with his (untrained) mage abilities, would overload his senses and make him shy away from crowds and physical contact as a defense mechanism. The senses that impinge on our consciousness the most are the most difficult for us to ignore. Therefore, if he's trying to process all that information, he won't be paying much attention to conversations or the body language of those around him, even when they are talking to him directly. This would make classical learning difficult, and also explain why he doesn't seem to take in what's going on in general. In fact, most if not all of Lalli's behavior can be explained by his sensing something and reacting to it (except maybe the cookie- I myself usually react to cookies that way  ). Thoughts?

[SeaAngel]

I have a theory about Lalli's touch-sensitivity and other autism-spectrum traits: I have met people who are very sensitive to energy projected / given off by others. They feel the presence and emotional state of others, more strongly when those others are numerous and/or close to or touching them. Seems to me that that type of sensitivity, combined with his (untrained) mage abilities, would overload his senses and make him shy away from crowds and physical contact as a defense mechanism. The senses that impinge on our consciousness the most are the most difficult for us to ignore. Therefore, if he's trying to process all that information, he won't be paying much attention to conversations or the body language of those around him, even when they are talking to him directly. This would make classical learning difficult, and also explain why he doesn't seem to take in what's going on in general. In fact, most if not all of Lalli's behavior can be explained by his sensing something and reacting to it (except maybe the cookie- I myself usually react to cookies that way  ). Thoughts?

You mean like an introvert? Introverts are overwhelmed by the presence and actions of large amounts of people.

Well first of all, I don't think he has an actual touch sensitivity. Tuuri grabs him and hugs him and he doesn't bat an eyelid. He winces only when is startled or hit. Or squashed.
If I have to make any guesses, I'd say he doesn't understand the purpose of touching another being, so he isn't pleased when hugged by a loved one, and is only uncomfortable when a little more force is applied on him. Hense the wincing and the lack of batting eyelids the rest of the time. He just doesn't care enough to show an socially appropriate face each time and look pleased or neutral etc.

Besides, I don't think he actively shies away from other people-he just doesn't do anything, unless someone else asks him to do something. But I'm not autistic, I don't understand autism very well, maybe another minnion would be better at this :-)

Personally, I prefer him having autistic traits simply because of him "being autistic", in stead of "him being a untrained mage" or "him actually being a cat". This is a condition that happens in real life, and I'm pleased when it is reproduced in stories without extra mambo-jumbo to make it more appealling to ""normal"" people.
Of course, Minna has plans of her own We'll have to wait and see!

[Paul Ferris]

I find it really hard to believe that Lalli is autistic - remember, he's been socially isolated for most of his life, and social interaction is a learned thing. I've been (essentially) isolated for a few weeks and I feel like a walking mannequin. If he really were on the autism spectrum it would probably be highlighted in his interactions with Tuuri - so far, it hasn't been.

I think y'all should take note of a parable I learnt a few years ago, where a bunch of scientists enrolled themselves in mental institutions and proceeded to record their experience. What they found was that even basic actions became medicalised; a subject taking notes was described as having "note taking behaviour", just like Helena above has pathologised a bit of physical awkwardness into "touch sensitivity".

Autism is a radically over-diagnosed condition. A cousin of mine is "autistic" but is clear as day just an introvert who doesn't want to argue with the doctor (or her family). A therapist discussed it (overdiagnosis in general, not that particular case) at Salon:

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/21/thats_not_autism_its_simply_a_brainy_introverted_boy/

This sort of thinking is painfully evident on the sheepweb (Reddit, Tumblr, Imgur), where overthinking your words becomes "social anxiety", and little s***s who want to look better in the crowd fawn over (suspected) autism-spectrum sufferers like some bizarre version of a fag-hag, speaking for them and condescending at every opportunity.

It's also dangerous, because their is evidence (I forget the source) which effectively says that kids develop to your expectations. If you expect someone to behave in an autistic way and reward them for doing so you will gradually nudge them into a fascimile of the disorder without any actual disorder being extant.

Sorry for the rant, but someone needed to speak up for the "Lalli is just a very awkward introvert" line of thinking.

[SeaAngel]

I find it really hard to believe that Lalli is autistic - remember, he's been socially isolated for most of his life, and social interaction is a learned thing. I've been (essentially) isolated for a few weeks and I feel like a walking mannequin. If he really were on the autism spectrum it would probably be highlighted in his interactions with Tuuri - so far, it hasn't been.

I wouldn't know. That Lalli is autistic has been supported by people in the comment section who have been diagnosed with autism themselves. I think their own point of view and understanding of the matter is much deeper that anyone else's, so I tend to believe them.

By the way, keep in mind that Tuuri does not seem to believe her cousin is 'autistic', or 'introvert'. Just 'not good company'. I don't think such delicate matters are well understood in post-rash isolated villages, so I doubt that Lalli's environment "expected" him to behave in an introverted of autistic way. He just did it by himself.


And as for the expectations shaping the child: the expactations certainly affect how the child grows, but I don't think they can overcome the true nature of the child. Otherwise there would be hardly any homosexual people (because seriously, especially till recently who would "expect" his child to turn gay?), hardly any criminals, etc etc.

[Piney]

And as for the expectations shaping the child: the expactations certainly affect how the child grows, but I don't think they can overcome the true nature of the child. Otherwise there would be hardly any homosexual people (because seriously, especially till recently who would "expect" his child to turn gay?), hardly any criminals, etc etc.

I don't completely agree with either point here (this one or Paul Ferris's), and I may be misunderstanding, but I think that if a child is diagnosed with autism and they aren't actually autistic, they'll still be raised by parents who now believe their child is autistic, and the child is likely to believe it themselves, until, or if ever, they know better. So that could probably shape the child's behavior in some part. And also, I have to say even if it goes off topic, that homosexuality is a completely different situation than autism. Like, you can't dispute whether your child is gay or not, and they're not going to believe they're gay because their parents expect them to be and treat them like they are. (Which might be what you were trying to say...?) But I feel like autism would be a different matter because it's less clearly defined.