Author Topic: AI assisted art  (Read 19696 times)

Turnstylus

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #180 on: May 30, 2023, 02:05:18 PM »
Very nice, @lwise !

And a very SSSS color scheme!

Jitter

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #181 on: May 30, 2023, 04:25:30 PM »
Lwise, it looks like the view from the young Hotakainens’ hiding spot towards Toivosaari.
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Róisín

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #182 on: May 31, 2023, 01:22:04 AM »
Beautiful landscape, with a touch of subtle darkness…….
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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #183 on: June 01, 2023, 06:15:38 PM »
Apparently AI is venturing into the world of food...
https://www.eater.com/23745417/ai-recipes-are-bad-for-everyone
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lwise

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #184 on: June 01, 2023, 06:40:40 PM »
AI has ventured into the world of law as well, with ... remarkable results.

Róisín

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #185 on: June 02, 2023, 01:07:28 AM »
Those are both very weird.
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Sc0ut

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #186 on: June 03, 2023, 09:19:19 AM »
As for using existing art as references for new art, though, I'm sorry, Sc0ut - artists have been doing that forever. Art students throughout history have been encouraged to outright copy the old masters for centuries, and the masters (living or not) didn't receive any residual income when their work inspired other work. Copyright law is a slightly complex can of worms that I won't open right now, but I will say there is nothing illegal (that I know of) about viewing art and using it as material for new art. There's even some latitude for appropriating pieces of an artwork - like sampling music - and making new art with a mixture of the pieces.

I appreciate the good intentions, but as I said, I'm a graphic artist by profession, it's how I earn my living (I never was a designer or anything else, nor do I direct others, nor write prompts to get images... I just draw everything myself, always have). What makes you think I didn't know any of this? As you train in drawing/painting you'll inevitably make a few studies after masters, even if just out of curiosity. I've done it and I don't even have professional art training - you learn about the history of your craft if you care about it at all.

As for copyright law as it pertains to fair image use, I know slightly more about it than the average person from my couple of year stint as a Wikipedia admin for my native language Wikipedia, where I got very into adding images to articles and I tried hard to do make sure I do it right. I won't get into the nitty gritty of it unless someone asks but, as a general rule, getting artistic inspiration from copyrighted work is legal as long as you don't copy it too closely and extensively (when it comes to music this is why you can sample a few seconds of someone else's song but not more). Of course, there are going to be situations that fall into a gray area with visual art especially, where it's hard to quantify the amount of similarity. Thing is, I'm not a lawyer and I don't want to be. I wasn't talking about what is *legal* but what is *moral* - and from that perspective, I find it immensely cynical to create a tool that relies very, very directly on involuntary input from contemporary artists while at the same time attacking their livelihood. As Lenny said, there are thousands upon thousands of public domain artworks, many of them famous and beloved and critically acclaimed, but the AI developers didn't choose to rely on those exclusively, even if it's risk-free legally. Why? Because they want to be able to generate images that feel current and speak to the tastes of the majority of people nowadays. And you can't get that without using the work of artists who are alive and creating right now.

I do agree with you on the part that I don't feel the same responsibilities towards another artist vs an art creating software. See, I've never seen other artists as a threat, I share how I do things if people ask (and if it's something I know how to put into words - not always the case), I share my supplies with artists who are physically near, I spread the word about opportunities and good clients and so on. I want to see other artists succeed, on one hand because they're people and I want that for all people, and on the other hand because I'm excited for them to keep making art - because art tends to change both the artist and the viewer for the better, if it's what the viewer needs at that moment. I might get excited about contributing to the training of an art AI software as well, as long as it was consensual and fairly compensated instead of a grift that puts more money into the pockets of those who have more than enough while harming those who often struggle. (And to address your example with the student getting inspiration from the masters - this effectively never had the same effect as AI does now, because even a brilliant student that would go on to outshine his master generally takes many years to form his style and form a client base, and often their master's career would have run its course unaffected meanwhile. Whereas AI art software has been available to the public for barely a couple of years and it has already changed how things are done in parts of industries that rely on artists, having systemic rather than individual impact)

I'm not afraid of "robots" replacing us (nor do I appreciate the use of that term as if you're talking to children - the distinction between robots and software isn't as arcane as that). I know the value of what we artists offer, and I am getting a clearer view of it every day as I create, look at art and talk about it with various people- I'm not insecure, nor do I need cheering up. I just want to be able to talk about the negative effects the AI boom has on some of us at the moment and be taken seriously. It's not the end of the world but it's not nothing, either. And sometimes it feels like a double slap in the face - first from the people who make the software, and second from those who offer us a "positive view" on it as a response to our complaints. I'm sure you meant well but your comment landed very poorly for me.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 09:29:49 AM by Sc0ut »

Jitter

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #187 on: June 04, 2023, 12:24:22 PM »
We shall all hold onto the thought that other participants in this discussion mean well, ok? Well for each other that is, criticism of AI is fully permitted.

Both the cooking and the law examples above are very good at illustrating what AI is and, in particular, isn’t. The description that an AI ”regurgitates” seems very fitting.

Right now it occurs to me that the phenomenon that is called AI hallucinating, when it’s asked to provide facts such as the legal brief, is exactly what is being asked for in the art generation use, isn’t it just? To generate the ”art” the AI takes elements of existing art, mixes up bits, and if it happens to combine them in a way that seems to make sense it’s cool/nice/fun “new art”. But taking elements of existing legal briefs and mixing them up a hit so that it seems to make sense is a major problem. I’m not quite sure what to make if it but I think it bears thinking about.
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wavewright62

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #188 on: June 05, 2023, 02:49:41 AM »
It reminds me of those bogus websites that were set up when the .xyz internet address first came out - instead of your standard 'ipso lorem' placeholder text, they had these blog posts set up to look like 'articles', in which they mashed together content from journal articles.  You'd get strings of discussion of vascular disease lapsing halfway through a sentence into Spanish.



The point?  Those bogus sites each came with a number of free email addresses, with which they could register from 'legitimate' hosting sites onto forums and other sites (like ours) and disseminate links for pharmaceuticals or Russian movie streaming.
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Turnstylus

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #189 on: June 05, 2023, 12:06:22 PM »
Wow, @Sc0ut , I'm really sorry you took my statements that way. The last thing I intended was to upset you (or anyone), so I apologize for that.

I definitely am not intending to talk down to anyone. I just wanted to speak accessibly, and I used the expression “robots” instead of “deep learning models developed to generate digital images from natural language descriptions” to keep the conversation casual. No insult to anyone's intelligence was intended!

I earn my living by making art for people, too – we're on the same team here!

I'm glad you're sharing your experience (and materials) in helping other people express themselves through art – please keep up the good work!

And thank you for drawing out (no pun intended) the distinctions between what is legal and what is ethical. And the point about artists of younger generations not interfering with their teachers' work is well made, too.

And since ambitious software engineers have created software that has had (I believe) unintended consequences for creators worldwide, it will be people like you and me that will have to respectfully find ways to advocate for those creators. Please believe me, @Sc0ut  – I am in full support of your artistic contributions to the world, and I want to see them continue!

Speaking of which, where can I see some of your work? Is your tumblr the best place to go?

Sc0ut

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #190 on: June 14, 2023, 03:47:32 AM »
Wow, @Sc0ut , I'm really sorry you took my statements that way. The last thing I intended was to upset you (or anyone), so I apologize for that.

I definitely am not intending to talk down to anyone. I just wanted to speak accessibly, and I used the expression “robots” instead of “deep learning models developed to generate digital images from natural language descriptions” to keep the conversation casual. No insult to anyone's intelligence was intended!

I earn my living by making art for people, too – we're on the same team here!

I'm glad you're sharing your experience (and materials) in helping other people express themselves through art – please keep up the good work!

And thank you for drawing out (no pun intended) the distinctions between what is legal and what is ethical. And the point about artists of younger generations not interfering with their teachers' work is well made, too.

And since ambitious software engineers have created software that has had (I believe) unintended consequences for creators worldwide, it will be people like you and me that will have to respectfully find ways to advocate for those creators. Please believe me, @Sc0ut  – I am in full support of your artistic contributions to the world, and I want to see them continue!

Speaking of which, where can I see some of your work? Is your tumblr the best place to go?

Thank you for the patient reply. As I said, I knew you meant well all along and I'm not upset with you or anyone in this thread, it's just kind of a sore topic in general for now. I do have some negative feelings that obviously come through but they are not because of you but because of the general situation with AI art.
As for my work - it is scattered in various places online, arranged by theme and whether I want it displayed under my real name or not xD For now I am most comfortable sharing my tumblr here, though not much has been happening there lately as I work on children's books currently, and I don't put that on tumblr.

Right now it occurs to me that the phenomenon that is called AI hallucinating, when it’s asked to provide facts such as the legal brief, is exactly what is being asked for in the art generation use, isn’t it just?

That's an interesting point and I think you're more or less right. I guess art generating has become one of the first successful AI activities precisely because it has many "correct" answers and low stakes in getting it wrong, whereas that can't be said for other domains.

Turnstylus

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #191 on: June 14, 2023, 05:09:41 PM »
@Sc0ut, your feelings are understandable, and justified. And you were more right than I realized - I didn't speak as well to the issue back in April as you did, so please accept my apology. But the explanation is for everyone:

It turns out that Sc0ut said some very wise things back in April that can be corroborated by the following source. Sometime last week I watched an interview of Mo Gawdat, software programmer and former Vice President of Emerging Markets at Google and CBO at Google X, where he worked extensively with AI and robotics technologies.

This fellow has the background to know a great deal about AI's potential future(s). He tells fascinating stories of robotic arms that Google's AI has used to learn about pattern recognition in the physical world. Imagine a whole floor of robotic arms attempting to pick up specific children's toys and raise them up to a camera, to signal a successful selection. Mo tells of a learning process that sounds much like the way children learn.

Something happened – and Mo went from advancing the development of AI, to calling the governments of the world to regulate it, while it's still possible – meaning, while AI is still less intelligent than we are.

Mo's words have given me much to think about. Some of his comments reminded me of this statement from Sc0ut:

I don't feel great telling people not to use AI image generators because I know it's a creative outlet for people without a lot of time or without skills to draw, and I don't think that is *in principle* a bad thing to have. But as long as the tool is developed in such an unethical way, I would urge everyone to think twice whether you want to give traffic and visibility to those sites.

While describing the world-changing power of AI in terms that are (at least) unsettling, Mo also concludes that he “does not fear the machines (AI). The biggest threat facing humanity today is humanity in the age of the machines.” Mo is warning against people using AI for selfish and greedy purposes - literally training AI to believe these motivations are good, the same way that children learn values from their parents.

Fair play to you, @Sc0ut! You called it!

Just like Sc0ut said back in April, “I don't mean to spoil the fun” either. And I know full well that using AI to make images of SSSS characters for our own personal enjoyment is just meant to be good fun - no agenda there, beyond the thrill of using a new technology that feels like magic. But I do recommend watching the interview because this technology will change many more lives than just those of artists.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2023, 05:50:38 PM by Turnstylus »

JoB

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #192 on: June 28, 2023, 09:46:00 AM »
Well ... I guess that with this, if not earlier, making the AIs more selective about the requests has become a matter of criminal prosecution (or not) to the makers ...

(I'd like to say that I'm surprised by this news, but I am very profoundly not ...)
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Lenny

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #193 on: June 28, 2023, 12:06:58 PM »
"The speed with which these emerging technologies have been co-opted by abusers is breath-taking but not surprising, as companies who were warned of the dangers have sat on their hands while mouthing empty platitudes about safety," said Anna Edmundson, the charity's head of policy and public affairs.

I very much feel this quote u_u And yeah, also not surprised at all.

Kinda feel like this is a year for getting angry at tech companies. I mean every year is a year like that, but it feels like a lot of "yolo let's build a thing and never think or dream or care about social or legal consequences/responsibilities" things are seeing consequences a bit (and not enough by far) lately.
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Jitter

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Re: AI assisted art
« Reply #194 on: June 28, 2023, 12:15:27 PM »
The three laws of robotics make sense you know. The tech companies have if it their lessons.
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