Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8

[thorny]

ecology chain effects are not taking place in this universe.

Yeah, I think that's one of the things Minna didn't bother working out.

I don't think she really worked out cat reproduction, either. The only kittens I remember actually seeing were the ones in this story. Are most of the Silent World cats sterilized? If not, I'd actually expect them to be close to drowning in kittens -- a healthy well-fed cat can have two litters or more a year of five or more kittens per litter or father a lot more than that, all of whom will be old enough to start doing the same within a year, and -- well, you can do the math. And Kitty should have managed to pull off getting pregnant between Expeditions I and II, if nothing was being done to prevent it.

But then, I'd have expected them to be trying to get Kitty pregnant (not that you'd have to try very hard: wait for heat cycle, open door, let tomcat(s) in or wailing queen out), and not to let her go adventuring again until she'd had some kits. They need the varied genetics.

[Jitter]

I’m not entirely convinced genetics in general is a thing here… the hereditarity of immunity is a bit weird too. It’s not nearly obvious enough to have bothered me when I was reading it all in one go, but when one stops to think, it’s different. This is not a complaint, there is no reason why the artist should have to research everything, merely an observation.

[LooNEY_DAC]

...Incidentally any closer-to-reality ecology effects might well have resulted in massive numbers of cats in the Silent World as there are still birds, but no other mammalian predators. But, ecology chain effects are not taking place in this universe...

Yeah, I think that's one of the things Minna didn't bother working out...

I’m not entirely convinced genetics in general is a thing here… the hereditarity of immunity is a bit weird too. It’s not nearly obvious enough to have bothered me when I was reading it all in one go, but when one stops to think, it’s different. This is not a complaint, there is no reason why the artist should have to research everything, merely an observation.

Again, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree, because I think you are seriously underestimating the lethality of the beasts, trolls and giants. Specifically, I think: the Rash-creatures are so lethal and so numerous that there almost isn't an ecosystem left; the only non-Rashed animal life is in protected enclaves such as the one in Kastellet, the Lehto in Finland and human settlements; the only things that eat Rash-creatures are other Rash-creatures; and (on the other topic) immunity is a simple autosomal recessive trait with an unselected (i.e., Y0) prevalence of approximately 8% (or, put another way, 1 in 12 people was immune in Y0), with "trollification" occurring at approximately the same rate.

The reason the Silent World is forbidden is not only because you can get infected there and bring the Rash back; it's because most people who go into the Silent World don't survive long enough to come back, because they got eaten.

[thorny]

Among the things not worked out are the effects on plant life, insect and other macro and micro organisms in and above the soil, bird species including migratory birds, oceanic food chains, and the effect of all of this on farming systems which developed originally within basically healthy much wider ecosystems. There's a very general mention of temporary famines, but little or no detail. Even oxygen production might have been disrupted: the plant life which produces it is currently reliant on a lot of animal activity. Some of that's from mammals and much of the rest of it would be disrupted by a sudden near-total disappearance of mammals.

I can certainly see why Minna didn't attempt to tackle that -- I don't think even a convention of trained ecologists working together could predict what would happen; we don't know enough. And that wasn't the story she was interested in telling. I'd have liked a bit of some sort of mention in there that there would have been drastic effects, though.

[LooNEY_DAC]

Even oxygen production might have been disrupted: the plant life which produces it is currently reliant on a lot of animal activity. Some of that's from mammals and much of the rest of it would be disrupted by a sudden near-total disappearance of mammals.

Phytoplankton? (Second sentence of third paragraph.)

Minna specifically mentioned insects and other such as the diet a fixed-in-place troll like Pastor Anne would subsist on, so extend that as a generalization; birds would literally go the way of the dodo, as well.

Iceland has no pretensions to food autarchy; thus the mention of famines (which were fan theories long before the canon confirmation).

I can certainly see why Minna didn't attempt to tackle that -- I don't think even a convention of trained ecologists working together could predict what would happen; we don't know enough. And that wasn't the story she was interested in telling. I'd have liked a bit of some sort of mention in there that there would have been drastic effects, though.

I was thinking that the Lehto pages at least strongly implied that the lands around had reduced fertility; that could be me reading too much into too little.

[Jitter]

I agree that a near total ecological collapse could well have been the reason of the Rash as it infects almost all mammals, however we see this is not what happened. There is the deer Emil and  Sigrun didn’t hunt. The momma cat is eating something. Several items of clothing have fur, Lalli even buys a fur cape in Adv 2. It looks like wolf although we don’t really get to see it that closely. So, there are animals in the Silent World. In adventure 2 they walk several days out in the middle of the Silent World with no shelter and only encounter a few monsters. Of these the poodle, the  waswolves and the lake cows are widely mobile (only an assumption for the poodle) while the kalma in Käsämä and the car trolls are either stationary or mostly slow. So, it seems that in the 90 years, which is quite a few generations for most animals, there has developed a balance allowing animal life some use of the forests too.

[Jitter]

Onwards… the end of Chapter 7 is very touching. A fine example of how masterfully Minna made us feel for the monsters. The Sad Dog finally gets to rest, and Emil gets a huge growing moment. He approaches the spiderdog despite knowing what it is, and puts himself in clear and present danger to release a being that nearly just ate him. We also see Lalli being supportive and friendly towards Emil, at least for certain Lalli-esque values of support. The best-rated comments of several of the pages here are very good too!

[NightMareMage]

302-317
I think this cover is one of the best in SSSS. Most of the covers don’t have a lot going on, which is a neutral or even a good thing, but this one has a lot happening and that helps it stand out.

Page 303, panel 4, you can see a slit along the dog's back. With makes sense with what we see it do later, but I missed this in my past readings.

The transition on pages page 304-305, is funny, but I don’t know why Emil is bathing Lalli. Out of universe, I don’t think it was meant as fanservice or shipbait, and in-universe the only thing I can think of is that Lalli does not know how to bathe himself, and I would doubt that to be the case. If he just needed to wash very thoroughly, Tuuri could have told him that.

Pages 306-308 lead to some major misreadings of Reynir’s character early on. Though I think people still should have understood that Reynir is acting like this due to the situation he’s in. Some people also missed the fact that he figured out what Tuuri was doing and backed off.

Page 310, I just wanted to say this page looks gorgeous.

Page 313, panel 5, you can see Emil looking sad at the class pet. I point this out because people were talking about Emil’s compassion, and it seemed like people forgot that you see this from him earlier. Mostly when he interacts with his cousins, including telling them to leave Lalli alone, and also a little in his conversations with Tuuri. This chapter is the first time we see Emil’s compassion highlighted, but it was established before.

Page 314-315, I just love seeing characters in the post-apocalypse trying to understand technology the audience is familiar with. This exchange was one I loved on first reading. (It was overshadowed for me later but it’s still great!)

[Jitter]

It never occurred to me to womder about Emil helping Lalli wash. It’s hard to get all the potential goo off your neck and back of the head when you can’t see and don’t have a shower so that you can use both hands. I’m sure Lalli would be able to take care of it all by himself but it’s definitely quicker and more convenient with someone playing the part of rhe shower. Also they are outside and the water is warm to start with but there’s no heating to keep it warm, so speed is of the essence for Lalli’s comfort. So, it makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it, I wonder who helps Sigrun to bathe or does she just have to take the inevitably cooling water?

I absolutely agree that Emil’s compassionate side was shown earlier too. Starting with the sandwich incident in the first train. He didn’t get cross with Lalli, he just went to get more for both of them. He’s not always perfect at it, but he is a nice person.

[NightMareMage]

It never occurred to me to womder about Emil helping Lalli wash. It’s hard to get all the potential goo off your neck and back of the head when you can’t see and don’t have a shower so that you can use both hands. I’m sure Lalli would be able to take care of it all by himself but it’s definitely quicker and more convenient with someone playing the part of rhe shower. Also they are outside and the water is warm to start with but there’s no heating to keep it warm, so speed is of the essence for Lalli’s comfort. So, it makes perfect sense to me. Now that you mention it, I wonder who helps Sigrun to bathe or does she just have to take the inevitably cooling water?

That would make sense. As for Sigrun, it does not seem to me that the SSSS world would gender segregate. Under this interpretation, it would not matter if only a man could help her. Either way, if Sigrun needed help, I would assume it would be Mikkel. Certainly, if they do gender segregate as he is the medic.

I absolutely agree that Emil’s compassionate side was shown earlier too. Starting with the sandwich incident in the first train. He didn’t get cross with Lalli, he just went to get more for both of them. He’s not always perfect at it, but he is a nice person.

I forgot about that one!

[Róisín]

It makes sense to have help, especially with the initial hose-down. And because they are not just washing but decontaminating, where it is important to get at every little fold and corner. It is for instance hard to get sticky clay out of your hair and off the skin of your back, especially if you have scrapes and scratches which need to be thoroughly cleaned of dirt (says the person who has needed help to clean up, and needed to give it to others, after a spelunking trip which included getting us and our gear around a partly water-filled U bend in a Gippsland cave). In the case of the comic, I expect they would have to be even more thorough, because they are dealing with a deadly disease as well as just the filth of a dead city.

[NightMareMage]

318-334
I and others already covered the nonsense around Reynir learning he is a mage. I don’t think I have more to say about that, at least for now.

The transition on pages 317-318 is so good! I could gush endlessly about all the Dreamworld panels but I don’t have much of interest to say about them. I just love them so much!

I commented once that I don’t recall seeing any indication that Reynir’s Haven had a barrier. On page 323, panel 4, that could be read as a barrier. But you do see Lalli leave and come back to his own Haven earlier in the comic and it looked different than this. Also, on page 326, panel 6, you see both Reynir and Lalli leave Lalli’s Haven, and it does not look like when Reynir left his own. Then of course there is Onni’s comment on having heard that Icelandic mages are, “-mostly defenseless.” I think it is strongly indicated that Icelandic mages’ havens don’t have barriers, but how they would survive without them is unclear. (My own headcanon is that they are not as easily sensed by the spirits in the Dreamworld and that their havens are also partially hidden from them but this is pure headcanon.)

In SSSS, characters are described as fat multiple times, it is always negative, and most of it is completely unnecessary. Now, on page 319, panel 1, Reynir calls Mikkel, “the big Dane,” and then on the last panel of page 328, Reynir calls Tuuri, “kinda round.” Mikkel is the only Dane there, so describing him by his appearance is needless. When talking to Onni, describing Tuuri’s appearance does make sense, but I do think it’s noteworthy that she is called “round” and it has the qualifier of “kinda.” I think it makes the fat jokes look even meaner by comparison.

Page 329, I think the conversation with Onni and Reynir gave some people the idea that Reynir had no friends. (We do see he has friends in A2 but that came much later.) Honestly, when I came upon the “Reynir had no friends theory” it seemed reasonable, but thinking about it further, I think the only way Reynir could be friendless is if he was overworked to the point of never getting a social life.

Page 332, I understand why Lalli shouldn’t leave Onno’s Haven, but is it clear why he could not get back without Reynir?

Also, while Lalli would likely not be particularly fond of Reynir away (a least at first), a lot of Lalli’s initial dislike of Reynir was due to a misunderstanding after a misunderstanding. It makes sense that Lalli softens to Reynir later.

[Róisín]

My understanding was that while it was unsafe for Lalli to leave Onni’s Haven and go wandering through the Dreamworld trying to get back to his own place, especially since he can’t do the walk on water thing without Reynir’s help, (when we see him outside earlier, he appears to be walking on rocks under the surface of the sea), waking up would automatically drop him back into his own body. And there are, I think, several points where Minna remarks that wandering the dream ocean and just barging into other people’s Havens is a thing Icelandic mages can just do.

[Keep Looking]

Maybe the differences in havens reflect some kind of observed cultural difference that Minna wanted to put in? I mean I'm not Scandinavian but I know that Finnish people do have a reputation for being introverted/standoffish because of the particular cultural norms there, and maybe Iceland is a bit different from that / more open and friendly (I'm not so sure on that front). Potentially this could be reflected in the different magic systems with the Finnish mages being more closed-off / wanting more boundaries and thus having more barriers around their havens.

I DO think it very much reflects the specific personalities of the different characters - Reynir is very open and friendly and tends to barge into things and end up in places he wasn't meant to be, which fits with his ability to run across the dreamscape. Meanwhile, Lalli and Onni are much more closed-off people who very much appreciate personal boundaries.

[Róisín]

Also the Icelandic sagas, when they mention Finnish magic, tend to talk about it very cautiously and respectfully, with a lot of mentions of their skill at stealth and weatherworking. I know one of the sagas mentions someone who, in attempting to resolve a a long and difficult war, ‘hired a Finnish wizard, and that was the end of that matter’. And in one of the royal sagas, the king has a retainer he refers to as ‘the little Finn’, who seems to be a very effective spy/mage/assassin. Sort of a dark variant of  Lalli. And the Nordics did consider the Finns in general to be a very insular and secretive people.