Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8

[Róisín]

I think prophetic dreams were traditionally one of the markers of being an Icelandic mage.

[dreki]

Do Icelandic mages hear the voices? We are told that Finnish mages do, and we see Emil struggle with it when Lalli is in his head but doesn't Reynir only hear Sleipnope?

It's all hard to tell.

Reynir immediately takes a mental health nose dive when he gets in the silent world which could be troll impact and could also be a reasonable response to the circumstances.

Then he hears them enough to know they'll hunt him down so he feels like he can't go home but doesn't the way Emil does with Lalli in his head.  So maybe they have to be close/strong for Reynir to pick it up?

Plus we don't know how fast that develops. Lalli had actively been a mage for over a decade - potentially if Reynir stayed near the silent world for longer his sensitivity would have increased? I imagine if all Finnish mages are hit as hard as Emil is as the first sign of magedom the casualty rate would be staggering - I know Lalli says they don't last long, but that seems excessive. 

It's really confusing.  Reynir mentions that the ghosts he saw aren't like the spirits he saw at home. (Iirc he tells kitty?) But what he says to Onni implies he doesn't see spirits.

I'm hesitant to assume Reynir is an accurate representation of norse mage abilities since he's a baby mage and seems to be god touched - Lalli and Onni have very different levels shown and that's after over a decade experience for both of them. 

Overall I'm going to say that Minna had experience in and was passionate about Finnish folk magic but did not put much thought into norse magic so ultimately it runs by plot convenience.

I think prophetic dreams were traditionally one of the markers of being an Icelandic mage.

Iirc I think she said "visions" and Reynir had visions in his dreams but potentially a mage could have them while awake.  In real history many shamanic practices include channeling visions, and also having them come in dreams, so I think it's possible Reynir could learn how to intentionally channel them.

[NightMareMage]

It's really confusing.  Reynir mentions that the ghosts he saw aren't like the spirits he saw at home. (Iirc he tells kitty?) But what he says to Onni implies he doesn't see spirits.

On page 87, the Icelandic and Finnish mages' info page, we see the prophetic visions of Icelandic mages contrasted with the Finnish mage's ability to see spirits.

I could not find the page where Onni and Reynir speak through the radio, but I distinctly remember their conversation being about the spirits of nature, not the ghosts of the dead. So IIRC, Reynir can see ghosts but not (nature) spirits.

I think SSSS only uses spirits as a term for the spirits of nature, but spirits are also a synonym for ghosts, so the confusion is understandable.

[JoB]

I could not find the page where Onni and Reynir speak through the radio, but I distinctly remember their conversation being about the spirits of nature, not the ghosts of the dead. So IIRC, Reynir can see ghosts but not (nature) spirits.

Ayup.

[Suominoita]

And those nature spirits were in three levels: Ylinen (Above) Keskinen (middle) and Alinen (Below). Basically, everywhere. Waterbirds have access to all of them -- such as a swan.

This also makes a presence in the language. Korkeus (height) and syvyys (depth) are both contrasted to matala that is simply close to  the ground level, never mind which direction you compare it to.

The spirits themselves can of course decide to show themselves anytime they wish. They probably don't usually bother with any non-Finns.

[Róisín]

Traditionally Nordic magic had several ways of inducing visions, both waking and in dreams. These could involve carving runes, chants, dance, herbal preparations or as in Celtic magic the use of some or all of these practices in combination with prolonged isolation in a sacred place. Consider the example of Odin ‘hung nine nights on the windy tree, sacrificed to Odin, an offering of myself to myself’ in his quest for the runes. Even with the aid of the sacred mead this was obviously a hard and harrowing process. ‘The runes were before me, I reached down and took them. Screaming I took them. Then I fell back.’ Presumably fell back into his body. Sounds like a weird fusion of the bull-feast ordeal and the Light of Foresight rite of Celtic magic.

[Athena]

Traditionally Nordic magic had several ways of inducing visions, both waking and in dreams. These could involve carving runes, chants, dance, herbal preparations or as in Celtic magic the use of some or all of these practices in combination with prolonged isolation in a sacred place. Consider the example of Odin ‘hung nine nights on the windy tree, sacrificed to Odin, an offering of myself to myself’ in his quest for the runes. Even with the aid of the sacred mead this was obviously a hard and harrowing process. ‘The runes were before me, I reached down and took them. Screaming I took them. Then I fell back.’ Presumably fell back into his body. Sounds like a weird fusion of the bull-feast ordeal and the Light of Foresight rite of Celtic magic.

The "offering of myself to myself" concept is fascinating to me. Where are those passages from? Come to think of it, I've never read any original sources for the Norse myths.

This is perhaps a conversation for another thread, but some of my favourite books, Monica Furlong's Doran trilogy, feature a scene where the main character has a vision induced through exactly the methods you describe (herbs, dance, etc). I believe she was drawing from the Celtic for that as the book is set in the British Isles. You may enjoy her books (the only fiction she wrote); they're lovely, not too long, and feature some interesting (and I believe historically accurate; she was a medieval historian) interplay between the pagan practices of the main cast and Christian influence in their village.

[Róisín]

Athena, I don’t know Monica Furlong’s fiction at all, but sounds fascinating! Have only encountered her work as a journalist/activist.
And I think the quote about Odin might have been from something I read in the Poetic Edda. But that was decades ago so don’t recall the details.

I have used the Light of Foresight myself as part of Druidic training, and my cousin did one of the heavier rites that involved standing overnight up to the neck in a river, both with useful results but not for the faint-hearted.

[Jitter]

In Siberian shamanism, including the Sami at least in Finland, the amanita mushroom fly agaric (the iconic mushroom with a red cap with white spots) has been used for shamanic and other purposes for its hallucinogenic properties. Eaten as is it is too toxic, lethal in larger quantities, but it has been used processed in specific ways, including processed through the kidneys i.e. by drinking urine of a person or animal that has eaten it.

Do not test it. It’s lethal. You are not a Siberian shaman and do not know how to render it non-lethal! Besides it’s toxic even in the used form, just hopefully not enough to kill the user.

If you ARE a Siberian shaman, go ahead if you feel like it, but don’t give any specific instructions here.

[Róisín]

Not a good thing to mess with, most unsafe! One of the things I do in real life is teach wild food foraging, and fly agaric is one of those that I stringently warn people against even touching, never mind eating! Death cap, fly agaric and ghost mushroom are the three most dangerous mushrooms in our forests around here.

And even Siberian shamans are cautious with Amanita. They have lengthy and complex preparations and even then it isn’t safe. There is a reason why the shamanic ‘threshold experience’ has potential kill. Not something ordinary folk should chance. Interestingly, it even turns up in the Vedic magic of India. In that context the preferred way to use it is also by drinking the urine of a primary consumer, which filters out the most poisonous components. I believe the Sami use reindeer for that. The Vedics use a specially trained priest. Not something I would care for myself, I would rather just sit in the forest with the mushroom.

[JoB]

And even Siberian shamans are cautious with Amanita. They have lengthy and complex preparations and even then it isn’t safe. There is a reason why the shamanic ‘threshold experience’ has potential kill. Not something ordinary folk should chance.

... I'll wait for the NASA version, then.

[Róisín]

Yes! That! What a wonderful idea. I would like to see similar research projects applied to lichens. You might find it interesting to read up on the development of an ecosystem on Surtsey, a volcanic island that emerged from the sea in relatively recent times, and now supports a small but growing ecology. It started as a lump of cooling lava in the middle of a cold, wild ocean, and now has life. As is usually the case, the lichens were first in and created a substrate on which everything else could grow. Lichens would be wonderful as a terraforming tool for marginal planets, and they have so many uses! Food for humans and animals, dyes, medicine…….

And yes, I have used the idea in a fic. Some of you might have read my unfinished story ‘An Historical Document’ which I wrote in response to a prompt from LooNEY_DAC. In that story, set in the far future of the Minnaverse, Emil’s remote descendant, namesake and reincarnation comes from one of the families that first colonised Mars, where they have a huge and profitable lichen farm.

[JoB]

Yes! That! What a wonderful idea. I would like to see similar research projects applied to lichens. You might find it interesting to read up on the development of an ecosystem on Surtsey, a volcanic island that emerged from the sea in relatively recent times, and now supports a small but growing ecology. It started as a lump of cooling lava in the middle of a cold, wild ocean, and now has life. As is usually the case, the lichens were first in and created a substrate on which everything else could grow. Lichens would be wonderful as a terraforming tool for marginal planets, and they have so many uses!

Color me an optimist, but I would like to think that a planet that looks anywhere near Surtsey - i.e., surface water, Earth-like temperatures, a sun providing the energy for that and an ecosystem-to-be, an atmosphere already carrying some of said energy (in the shape of easy-to-breathe oxygen) to the land, and most of that for nothing less than the last couple Ga - would not need terraforming but rather something the PPO would like to think some more about.

A planet that still needs to have its oxygen broken out of whatever molecules it's "stored" in, possibly forming new atmospheric layers to alter the temperatures of those below, now that's terraforming! (And about as far beyond our current reach as any extrasolar planets we might want to apply it to, of course.)

(I "watched" The Titan a couple days ago. Dear script writer, the temperature on Titan is almost 200 K below Earth's. It doesn't matter whether your genetically engineered transhumans meant to skinny-walk (and skinny-soar) on that moon stop feeling the cold, it's about avoiding that the very materials their bodies consist of turn rock solid!)

[thorny]

It's my understanding (which may be incorrect) that current thinking is that planets won't have significant amounts of free oxygen unless they've already got life; that the free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere was produced by cyanobacteria via photosynthesis; and that there would need to be something photosynthesizing to produce it elsewhere.

[JoB]

It's my understanding (which may be incorrect) that current thinking is that planets won't have significant amounts of free oxygen unless they've already got life; that the free oxygen in Earth's atmosphere was produced by cyanobacteria via photosynthesis; and that there would need to be something photosynthesizing to produce it elsewhere.

Dunno who exactly started it here on Earth, and there are geological mechanisms able to release some oxygen, I'm told, but yes, we don't know of any way to maintain a noteworthy amount of oxygen in a planet's atmosphere short of an up-and-running ecosystem constantly replenishing it.

Well, short of that planet being a gas giant made of only oxygen and noble gasses, maybe. In particular, no hydrogen (BOOOOOOM). Frankly, I'd rather bet on us finding a dodecahedron-shaped one.