Author Topic: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8  (Read 22043 times)

Jitter

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2023, 10:26:21 AM »
P319 Reynir sitting in his dream boat on top great falls.

What is this? Where is this? What is the nature and the function of the boat? Is this the Dream Ocean? Certainly looks like it, but if so what are the falls? This is the only scene we ever get of anything like this at all.

Now don’t get me wrong, the pages are great and I love the boat. But, is this some place of Reynir's instead of the actual Ocean? Maybe a memory of a scary event when he waa little, and had gotten lost, and sound of water was so very loud?

But no, how could the dog beast be here in that case? What is it anyway? Is it the spiderdog or not??

I'm so confused! Do any of you have any word of Minna on any of this?
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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2023, 10:51:03 AM »
I'm so confused! Do any of you have any word of Minna on any of this?
I think that Minna suggested (at a later point) that Nyuuudog is not connected to Cthulhund in any way, but I wouldn't have the slightest what else it is supposed to be. Unless it's his fylgja exhibiting years' worth of stress from unsuccessful attempts at establishing contact with Reynir! :D (But then it should still be an Icelandic Sheepdog, shouldn't it?)

No information on the surrounding, either, I'm afraid. Note that at the time it was shown, we were still under the impression that there are two separate tiers of the magespace (with Lalli needing to portal out of his haven to the general Dream Sea to try to contact Onni), so why not even more, possibly a seiðkona-only one, that Minna had planned at that point. The tiers concept then went into the wastebin when Reynir demonstrated that he can just walk from the Dream Sea into havens and back out ...
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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #77 on: January 12, 2023, 10:54:27 AM »
I've always been confused about that scene! I wonder if perhaps the dream boat is somewhere mages wake up in when they first become aware of the dream world? Presuming the dog is spiderdog, it could be the soul waiting to be freed while the body wanders, but it doesn't have a lot of the distinctive qualities spiderdog had.

Jitter

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2023, 11:03:33 AM »
Yeah, I don’t think I was confused (or at least not this confused) the first time I got to this page, because of lack of further info about the Dreamworld but now I certainly am. Several people in the comments suggested it’s not really a wall but rather a point where the local thing that passes for gravity in the dream plane just changes direction. But the edge is not a straight line although the lip of the fall is strangely rectangular.

Also a nice peek under the surface of the (presumably common version of) the Dream Ocean on the chapter cover on p 301.
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dreki

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2023, 11:36:30 AM »
What is this? Where is this? What is the nature and the function of the boat? Is this the Dream Ocean? Certainly looks like it, but if so what are the falls? This is the only scene we ever get of anything like this at all.

Is this the real life, is this just fantasy?
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Now don’t get me wrong, the pages are great and I love the boat. But, is this some place of Reynir's instead of the actual Ocean? Maybe a memory of a scary event when he waa little, and had gotten lost, and sound of water was so very loud?

Okay! Suggestion!

In Finnish folklore sleeping and death (tuonela) are connected and the soul bird things take you to sleep also take you to Tuonela. 

In Iceland, they tend to send their dead off in a boat with a funeral pyre.  So maybe the boat is meant to bring him there similar to how the soul birds take the Finnish mages to their havens?

And since this is the first time Reynir is conscious that's why we see it?

Or the boat takes him to his haven each time but it's not worth the panels to show?

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But no, how could the dog beast be here in that case? What is it anyway? Is it the spiderdog or not??

It looks like exactly like the spider dog.

This is a big gripe for me!  Onni keeps talking about the dream sea being dangerous. We see Lalli get attacked on it like so many times.

This is the only time we see Reynir face anything resembling an issue and he goes skipping along it like friggin Little Red Riding Braid without a care in the world.

Gah I wish we found out more about Icelandic mages with actual damn training!

Can they all walk on the dream sea? Does walking on the sea make it safer? Why can't Finnish mages?

Is Lalli attacked more often due to the kade's influence or is he genuinely more vulnerable? Are all Finnish mages more vulnerable than all Icelandic mages?

Does Reynir have special powers even by Icelandic standards since he was chosen to release the souls of the angry ghosts? If so does he still have those powers? Will he be called to keep going deep into the silent world and release decades trapped souls?

So many questions!

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2023, 04:21:27 PM »
Later on Onni explains to Lalli that foreign mages do that (move around and even into people’s havens) so it is something some/many/all Icelandic mages can do, although apparently it’s not that they skip around irritating the Finns, Onni has only heard about it. As Reynir seems to have a knack for finding things, it’s possible he’s a lot more likely to stumble upon anyone?

I guess the Denizens of the water are in the water as Reynir never seems to have trouble with them. But it’s just a guess.

I was thinking about the funeral boats as well and I may have an idea, but I have to muse on it a bit more. Probably not the explanation (sadly, the explanation probably doesn’t exist, at least not anymore) but an explanation?
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dreki

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2023, 05:05:38 PM »
Later on Onni explains to Lalli that foreign mages do that (move around and even into people’s havens) so it is something some/many/all Icelandic mages can do, although apparently it’s not that they skip around irritating the Finns, Onni has only heard about it. As Reynir seems to have a knack for finding things, it’s possible he’s a lot more likely to stumble upon anyone?

We know they can enter Finnish havens (not clear if they can enter Icelandic ones, personally I headcanon they can't) - I suppose that can mean they can walk on the water as well. 

I also headcanon, and I think this makes sense, that havens go by a combination of physical and emotional closeness - so I imagine that a Finnish mage who travels to Norway/Iceland might find themselves overrun by overzealous mages, and Icelandic mages who visit Finland likely commit faux pas - but Onni hasn't worked closely enough for that to be an issue. 

I also do agree that Reynir seems to have a knack for stumbling on people.  One might say that luck is on his side.  (since finding out 'Onni' means 'luck' I am slightly obsessed with those puns)

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I guess the Denizens of the water are in the water as Reynir never seems to have trouble with them. But it’s just a guess.
It bothers me a bit given that in the real world, underwater critters can hunt and attack things standing on the water.  I imagine Reynir like a water strider - and fish will eat them. (but they're itty bitty so fish rarely bother with them- but Reynir is not itty bitty)

I can think of a few reasons he wouldn't be targeted as much as the swimming Lalli, it just bothers me that it's so deadly to Lalli and seemingly harmless to him aside from that one random bloody dog!

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I was thinking about the funeral boats as well and I may have an idea, but I have to muse on it a bit more. Probably not the explanation (sadly, the explanation probably doesn’t exist, at least not anymore) but an explanation?

From what I've seen Minna has forgotten a lot. Which isn't uncommon - even people who love their work, it's a lot to keep track of and it's easy for things to slip through the cracks even with a solid organizational system.  But yeah I imagine that she's probably long forgotten or thought better of it and retroactively wrote it out.

Personally I don't treat "word of god" as canonical the way the actual canon is - so while I might give it more consideration than fanon, I'm willing to accept fanon over "word of god" when it makes more sense.

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2023, 12:27:57 PM »
My headcanon is that Reyni’s special affinity is finding things. People, yes, but also new galdrastafir, ancient churches, original souls of Kades… The two latter ones admittedly can be explained by finding people, but still. It seems to work both in the Dreamworld and the real world (case in point: the way he immediately fished Lalli up from the mud pond after Lalli was nearly drowned by the Tanktroll).

I agree on your idea about how closeness in the Dreamworld works. He finds Lalli first because he’s physically near, and then Onni because… Lalli and Onni’s bond makes their havens be nearby? Onni is looking for Lalli, making him draw nearer? A bit of both? It’s too bad we never see any other Icelandic mages except for the condescending teacher who doesn’t do anything.

As for the Denizens, it might be they are dangerous to Reynir too but he’s just oblivious enough and lucky enough at the same time that he just dances over them never knowing how near death he always is. Although, Onni doesn’t say anything about them even when Reynir drags him onto a trek over the Ocean to find Anne, so maybe the surface offers at least some protection. Similarly, nothing attacks Lalli when they are looking for Onni together.

The fact Onni and Lalli consider it rude (instead of being utterly amazed by the impossible happening) seems to indicate that some Finnish mages can cross the Ocean to visit each other. Onni can and does fly across distance, Ensi also had a bird Luonto. I wonder if it’s more common to have a bird Luonto and be able to fly or not and be stuck like Lalli is?
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dreki

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2023, 07:28:30 AM »
My headcanon is that Reyni’s special affinity is finding things. People, yes, but also new galdrastafir, ancient churches, original souls of Kades… The two latter ones admittedly can be explained by finding people, but still. It seems to work both in the Dreamworld and the real world (case in point: the way he immediately fished Lalli up from the mud pond after Lalli was nearly drowned by the Tanktroll).

I like this one - since he does seem good at making up galdrastafir, which I personally suspect is not common for mages. Or at least not without considerably more training than "literally none".  Someone has to introduce new magic to the world when it's needed. 

My headcanon is that the world has progressed to the point that it's time to start increasing the reclamation efforts - and that's what the expedition was part of. It's how they were able to get funding (which was a bit of an accident), then the gods ensured Reynir and the Hotakainens were there, and also arranged the bridge to break and for the transport ship to pick them up so their path would cross Anne's church.  (I believe the initial plan was for them to retrace their steps and go back over the bridge - so nowhere near Anne, no way to save the ghosts)

Reynir being inspired to invent new runes that are particularly helpful in the silent world would fit into that idea.

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I agree on your idea about how closeness in the Dreamworld works. He finds Lalli first because he’s physically near, and then Onni because… Lalli and Onni’s bond makes their havens be nearby? Onni is looking for Lalli, making him draw nearer? A bit of both? It’s too bad we never see any other Icelandic mages except for the condescending teacher who doesn’t do anything.

Lalli starts following him pretty much immediately - so it is possible he was guided according to that.  Lalli very much wanted to find Onni, and honestly it wouldn't surprise me if Reynir was curious about him. (Can't remember if he knows Onni is a mage at that point? Or maybe his natural interest in people made him wonder about what Tuuri's brother was like?)

Again, sticking with my idea the gods had a heavy hand in this, Reynir being able to contact Onni was vital so that could have influenced it.

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As for the Denizens, it might be they are dangerous to Reynir too but he’s just oblivious enough and lucky enough at the same time that he just dances over them never knowing how near death he always is. Although, Onni doesn’t say anything about them even when Reynir drags him onto a trek over the Ocean to find Anne, so maybe the surface offers at least some protection. Similarly, nothing attacks Lalli when they are looking for Onni together.
Onni doesn't really say anything about the entire thing, but that is true.  Lalli certainly doesn't seem particularly wary either time he walks with Reynir, despite what happened the first time he saw Reynir, and Onni has nothing to say on it.  So it is possible that's just safer.

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The fact Onni and Lalli consider it rude (instead of being utterly amazed by the impossible happening) seems to indicate that some Finnish mages can cross the Ocean to visit each other. Onni can and does fly across distance, Ensi also had a bird Luonto. I wonder if it’s more common to have a bird Luonto and be able to fly or not and be stuck like Lalli is?

Early in adventure 1, the way Onni talks it seems like they would normally be able to safely visit each other except the kade is hunting them and is too, in the dream space, close for it to be safe.  It makes sense for mages to be able to visit more easily.

The characters page notes that Lalli isn't a particularly interested student - and he doesn't seem to have as much mastery of magic as Onni does - so it's possible Lalli just ignored that particular lesson of how to cross the sea safely. 

This page shows Lalli with a bird sillhouette and with the sillhouette he is able to stay above water a bit better. It is possible that gets retconned and she changed her mind on his luonto.  Personally I think that all Finnish mages can tap into their sielulintu on the dream sea.

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2023, 08:28:06 AM »
(I believe the initial plan was for them to retrace their steps and go back over the bridge - so nowhere near Anne, no way to save the ghosts)
Correct, and even after the bridge broke, it still needed the news of a possible cure to make them go even half that way (to Odense), which Taru and Siv already considered "overextending".
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Jitter

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2023, 04:17:19 PM »
Dreki, it’s definitely his sielulintu and a separate thing than his luonto. We see a hint of his luonto when he does the kitty bomb on the handsy moose on p 212, and the sielulintu is seen immediately before (208) and after (213). I think Minna has even confirmed this somewhere. The sielulintu is the guide or the carrier of the itse part of the soul.

On the same pages we definitely see the handsy moose reaching up through the water surface, however Lalli’s feet are in the water before this. So maybe the surface is more of a cloaking type protection, the Denizens can attack through it but they don’t usually notice things on top of the water?
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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2023, 08:29:47 AM »
Well It has been awhile.  I had trouble with the dates  😔

301-- I love the chapter covers and our first hint of Kitty (plus cat Lalli)
302-304-- Mom trying to save/protect her kitties a;ways got me going AWWW and (you can do it.) The Enf of page 404 with Lalli getting a face full of water is a giggle.
305--  I Think it is funny how Shocked Sigrun is that people *actually* read books.  Though I do think Lalli can bathe himself (Though it does make for Emillalli  ❤️)
306--Nice little homey scene
307-309--Poor Reynir.  Love how Mikkel swaddles him to keep him still.  Swaddling will make you sleeeeepy...
310--  Love the art panels.  Because I did not look too closely when I read it the first time, i now try and see if there are any critters/beasts etc.  hidden away. I am probably wrong, but I see what looks like a bunny On the way right side right from between the two dry spots (islands?) in the water.  Though it looks like a miserable day
311-- I'm in..no subtlety here.  Though I am not sure if Sigrun punched her way through or Emil fell in.
312-- Ok Emil fell (LOL).  Junk building lesson
313-- School Lab/Library good choice!!
314-- DVD's/CDs  Gramophone ha ha
315-- I like how Emil hears the noise first
316-- And they miss something good to eat.  More candle soup.
317-- Yep candle soup

« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 08:39:06 AM by dmeck7755 »
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dreki

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2023, 10:55:43 AM »
316-- And they miss something good to eat.  More candle soup.
317-- Yep candle soup

Curiosity got the better of me soI looked up if candles are edible and ultimately they can cause intestinal blockages so hopefully Mikkel isn't actually using them that much.   Candles typically melt higher than human body temperature so there's a risk the wax would solidify in the body and cause issues. (paraffin only just - so a fever would melt it, but beeswax is much higher so would definitely solidify)

They do make special massage candles that have a lower melting point and would be safe but I don't think that's what these are.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002766.htm

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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2023, 11:53:33 AM »
More likely tallow candles which, barring the presence of any toxic dyes or artificial colours, are as safe to eat as any animal fat. Really, a mixture of tallow and beeswax would work even better as a candle. And beeswax is edible in small amounts, being sometimes used medicinally.
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Re: Copenhagen - Chapters 5-8
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2023, 02:48:04 PM »
More likely tallow candles which, barring the presence of any toxic dyes or artificial colours, are as safe to eat as any animal fat. Really, a mixture of tallow and beeswax would work even better as a candle. And beeswax is edible in small amounts, being sometimes used medicinally.

Oh brilliant.  In that case they are quite edible and would actually be really good in the winter since fat is good for energy and keeping warm.  Good job Mikkel. 4 for you, Mikkel.