Upcoming new bunny comics i.e. Minna’s next work

[Lenny]

Well... haha, called it I guess? I dunno, from all of your commentary this series that's meant to be useful as a Christian piece of literature is seemingly quite useless with glaring flaws. Seems like the kind of thing my dad would have me read to then grill me on what's wrong. Certainly doesn't seem like she's working with her church or any actual theologian to produce it.

I'm not going to read it myself yet (maybe one day! finally getting to maybe handling that gigantic bundle of trauma this year!), but the thoughts of everyone here has been really interesting to follow, and a little cathartic. I suppose the one thing it's useful for is as a piece to analyse!

[Dilandu]

@Dilandu, thank you for the laugh!

You are welcome)

[Dilandu]

Well... haha, called it I guess? I dunno, from all of your commentary this series that's meant to be useful as a Christian piece of literature is seemingly quite useless with glaring flaws. Seems like the kind of thing my dad would have me read to then grill me on what's wrong. Certainly doesn't seem like she's working with her church or any actual theologian to produce it.

Well, as far as I understood (and I may be wrong), the current pages is more a lore - retelling of a legend, or something like that - than the actual events.

[Lenny]

Well, as far as I understood (and I may be wrong), the current pages is more a lore - retelling of a legend, or something like that - than the actual events.

As dreki and thorny pointed out, it's so far out there from actual Christian theology that the story would have to prove the legend wrong very firmly for this to be useful as a way to learn Christian theology. There are many things that can be interpreted differently that fall under the very large label of "Christian theology", but "God created it, and saw that it was good" is not really one of them. I'm painfully aware some fringe (and not-so-fringe) sects are of the opinion "all humans = bad, unless Jesus", but even those teach "humans good, until snake and fruit, now humans forever bad". The few left that do teach that humanity was always bad are blatantly ignoring the first few paragraphs of the Bible and tie themselves into knots to do so, and few actually feel the need to do this - even cults don't need to in order to control people, the whole narrative of humanity's fall gives them that power already.

That said, disclaimer, I'm coming to this from several layers away from the actual story, and will be for a good chunk of time still, so I don't want to get too into it. Who knows, it might be a setup for something better/more accurate, which may be more obvious if I read it directly. The precedence of her past two works don't give me much hope, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see. Regardless, due to the incorrect framing it gives the reader, I'd dock it points for a useful reference even if it does subvert it later on.

[thorny]

I wonder if this somehow all reads entirely differently to members of her particular congregation?

I can't imagine how they'd be reading it; but pretty obviously it comes off differently to Minna, at least, or she wouldn't have written it.

-- maybe it's supposed to be a spiritual analogy, not a physical one: animals in the desert are separated from God and therefore starved on a spiritual level? But I don't see how that works, either. Even if we assume that Minna somehow thinks that atheists and members of non-Christian religions are disconnected not only from God but also from each other (she specifies that the creatures in the desert at the beginning can't connect with each other), which seems to me to be obvious nonsense but maybe it doesn't to her -- the lamb goes away and leaves them after (temporarily) making the area fertile. The renewed separation isn't initiated by the animals, but by the god.

[dreki]

Even if we assume that Minna somehow thinks that atheists and members of non-Christian religions are disconnected not only from God but also from each other (she specifies that the creatures in the desert at the beginning can't connect with each other), which seems to me to be obvious nonsense but maybe it doesn't to her -- the lamb goes away and leaves them after (temporarily) making the area fertile. The renewed separation isn't initiated by the animals, but by the god.

So I personally have the headcanon for Christianity that god has other things he has to deal with and keeps turning away from humanity to work on something else then comes back and we've wrecked it and he's like "FFS I set this up WTF how did you ruin it?!"

Like the Bible I read - it jumps from Joseph (hebrews come to Egypt, save their asses from famine, everyone is happy together) to Moses (hebrews are enslaved and brutally mistreated).

So I just imagine god setting everything up, spends decades preparing Joseph and aligning everything and they're all set up for equality and prosperity and it's rolling along and he turns around to check on something else then goes back to humanity and "THEY DID WHAT"

If I were to write a comic about this I would be incredibly open about the fact I'm not Christian and it is not necessarily a reflection of christianity.

[thorny]

That's coherent enough in itself -- I meant that it's a problem if Minna's trying to show that the animals are in a spiritual desert because they rejected a connection with God. Because according to that comic, they didn't reject it; they weren't given a choice.

-- though it occurs to me: isn't there some branch of Christianity in which God is only going to save some specific number of people, and God chooses which ones, the humans can't actually do anything about it? If so, maybe Minna's fallen into one of those groups.

[Róisín]

There are several Christian and related groups who believe this. A common number for the ‘saved’ is 144,000. Not sure how this number is derived, I think by interpreting some passage in the Bible or the Apocrypha? Does anybody know? Apparently the rest of us can’t be ‘saved’, however virtuous we may be. Really doesn’t seem fair or just.

[dreki]

There are several Christian and related groups who believe this. A common number for the ‘saved’ is 144,000. Not sure how this number is derived, I think by interpreting some passage in the Bible or the Apocrypha? Does anybody know? Apparently the rest of us can’t be ‘saved’, however virtuous we may be. Really doesn’t seem fair or just.

This was created by people with social anxiety because clearly it can't be heaven if there's too many people. (I am joking, from what I've seen those tend to be the most dangerous cults and the small number is used to keep a tight leash)

Considering how regional religion is, the idea that you have to be this specific religion to be saved isn't fair or just in itself. Especially before globalization when it was quite concievable to go your whole life never knowing any christianity.

The very idea you have to be Christian to be good/saved is an excuse for bigotry and discrimination- amping that exclusion up just feels like a natural progression.

That's coherent enough in itself -- I meant that it's a problem if Minna's trying to show that the animals are in a spiritual desert because they rejected a connection with God. Because according to that comic, they didn't reject it; they weren't given a choice.

In my example it does mean generations without god's guidance - so from the perspective of later generations it's a spiritual desert because god has never been present in their life.
So if that were the case then we may have come in towards the end of him doing other things before getting back to earth.

(I do not believe this is what actually happened within the comic)

I'm genuinely confused about who created this world because it seems like the answer is "not god" - so what was god doing before now? How was god created? Why has the lamb showed up now?

Why did the lamb think that after the trauma of starvation and neglect that the animals would magically get over it and not need emotional support? (looks pointedly at the Hotakainens)

Why did the lamb think that just giving them abundance and immediately abandoning them was all it needed to do?

Jeez this just reaffirms how much the poor woman needs therapy.  She honestly has all my empathy. 

[JoB]

There are several Christian and related groups who believe this. A common number for the ‘saved’ is 144,000. Not sure how this number is derived, I think by interpreting some passage in the Bible or the Apocrypha? Does anybody know? Apparently the rest of us can’t be ‘saved’, however virtuous we may be.

Wikipedia has a page about that number, but the info about a) what exactly the various denominations believe the fate of the rest of humanity will be and b) whether or not personal virtousness is a factor in the selection seems incomplete at first glance ...

Really doesn’t seem fair or just.

Which is only relevant if you consider religion a tool to promise justice etc. to be working behind the scenes of a world of the living that obviously fails (more or less) to provide them directly. Just from the premise of "there are beings with superpowers, and they use those and supernatural perception to work towards a goal that is more or less beyond human understanding", results that look fair or just to the very same (single-)human understanding seem rather unlikely. Even if those beings were very much sympathetic to individuals' desire of justice, they'd nonetheless face major problems providing it to all humans involved in a situation simultaneously, as there are constellations where there's just no intersection between what different parties would accept as "just".

[dreki]

Which is only relevant if you consider religion a tool to promise justice etc. to be working behind the scenes of a world of the living that obviously fails (more or less) to provide them directly. Just from the premise of "there are beings with superpowers, and they use those and supernatural perception to work towards a goal that is more or less beyond human understanding", results that look fair or just to the very same (single-)human understanding seem rather unlikely. Even if those beings were very much sympathetic to individuals' desire of justice, they'd nonetheless face major problems providing it to all humans involved in a situation simultaneously, as there are constellations where there's just no intersection between what different parties would accept as "just".

There's an entire episode of Futurama about this.  Bender accidentally becomes the god of a small group of people living on his body and he tries really hard to be a good god but it ends really badly no matter what he does. I thought it was a good episode.

Even for parents with just a few kids - all the kids will have different experiences of their childhood, sometimes they'll grow up with drastically different opinions, and it can be impossible to keep things fair for everyone all the time. Plus as the kids grow their concept of what's "fair" changes. (not just in childhood, even for the rest of their life as they look back at their childhood and relationship with their parents their perspective will keep changing) Now multiply that by a billion.

[dmeck7755]

There's an entire episode of Futurama about this.  Bender accidentally becomes the god of a small group of people living on his body and he tries really hard to be a good god but it ends really badly no matter what he does. I thought it was a good episode.

That reminds me of a sci-fi story I read eons ago about this race of people who contact a guy in his sleep.  They ask for help because this pink cylinder has been destroying their cities and it could not be destroyed.  He figures out that time for them is different than time for him and that they are living between his fore-finger and index-finger knuckle, and scratching his hand is causing the destruction. He puts a band-aid on his hand and figures at the end of the week he will take it off, that 4 billion years is long enough for any race

[thorny]

There are several Christian and related groups who believe this. A common number for the ‘saved’ is 144,000. Not sure how this number is derived, I think by interpreting some passage in the Bible or the Apocrypha? Does anybody know? Apparently the rest of us can’t be ‘saved’, however virtuous we may be. Really doesn’t seem fair or just.

I am tempted to believe that some of these people are worshipping a devil, not a god.

That reminds me of a sci-fi story I read eons ago about this race of people who contact a guy in his sleep.  They ask for help because this pink cylinder has been destroying their cities and it could not be destroyed.  He figures out that time for them is different than time for him and that they are living between his fore-finger and index-finger knuckle, and scratching his hand is causing the destruction. He puts a band-aid on his hand and figures at the end of the week he will take it off, that 4 billion years is long enough for any race

I'd think they'd get a lot less than that; wouldn't he be responding to their pleas by cutting off all their access to light and air?

[JoB]

Now multiply that by a billion.

I had an Evil Thought™ moments after my previous posting: Cutting down the populace to 144,000 handpicked individuals would help immensely in avoiding such dissent .......

I'd think they'd get a lot less than that; wouldn't he be responding to their pleas by cutting off all their access to light and air?

If they're so small that he didn't notice them building cities on his hand, the band-aid won't prove much of a seal for air, and I'd rather not start theorizing whether the EM wavelength they see will be anywhere near the 400-800 nm range we call "visible".

(Not that they, given that size difference, should be able to recognize his finger as a cylinder, rather than a huge wall taking several millennia to pass overhead ...)

[dreki]

I am tempted to believe that some of these people are worshipping a devil, not a god.

I just want it on record that the Church of Satan is dedicated to religious freedom and fighting bigotry.  So if they were worshipping the devil they'd be better people.

I'd think they'd get a lot less than that; wouldn't he be responding to their pleas by cutting off all their access to light and air?

There's a book, "There's a Hair in my Dirt", about a well-meaning woman who goes through the forest "saving" a bunch of animals in ways that actually harms/kills them. It's about how being well intentioned but ignorant doesn't end well.

If they're so small that he didn't notice them building cities on his hand, the band-aid won't prove much of a seal for air, and I'd rather not start theorizing whether the EM wavelength they see will be anywhere near the 400-800 nm range we call "visible".

(Not that they, given that size difference, should be able to recognize his finger as a cylinder, rather than a huge wall taking several millennia to pass overhead ...)

The "cylinder" thing was confusing, yeah.