I would have wiSSSShed... what is missing from SSSS?

[lwise]

I can sort of see it both ways. I see that Sigrun makes more of the 'combat' decisions, and Mikkel -- the bigger-picture strategic decisions. Which makes sense, given their skill-sets, but it gives me the feeling that a lot of the adventure is the Onni-and-Mikkel show. Also, she does claim to be confused as to why they are even following Lalli, at first (even as she goes along with it). Of course, she might not be that serious about her question.

I think the adventure has taken so very long in real time that the recent pages are much more salient than those from as much as two years again.  It more seems to me that recently it's been the Onni-and-Reynir show.  Onni got that long section about his journey to Tuonela, and then his and Reynir's adventures in mage-space.  Mikkel really has just acted as the interface with Onni and then helped with Onni's plan.  Earlier Sigrun was more prominent and even Emil got a chance to shine.

As to Sigrun's claim of being confused, she could be confused as to why the others are following Lalli, even as she herself is staying with the others to protect them.

[thegreyarea]

I feel pretty much the same most people already said. Most relevant is the missing character development, particularly on the Emil-Lalli relationship.

However there are a few things more:

I miss the lack of those brilliant info-pages that added so much to the lore. Yes, we had a few, but recently they seem to carry less information...

I miss the focus on languages, that got increasingly watered-down along adventure 2. The fact that the party members speak different languages and sometimes don't understand each other seemed to become less and less relevant, to the point they all seem to speak a common language.

And I miss those amazing, breathtaking full-page panels that deserved to be framed and hang on a wall.

I also miss all the backstories that we (probably) won't see, namely Mikkel's and Emil's, but also Sigrun's, even if I think that hers would consist basically of troll hunting.

Of course I'll also miss the non-taken opportunities to develop the story, like the already mentioned fire around Emil's house, or the relevance of that book/notebook that Mikkel found on Copenhagen, the one with pictures inside that was close to an aparently murdered person wearing a hazmat suit. I dreamt that it would contain vital info about the Rash, and even began to write a story based on that...

And, last but not least, that we won't get to see what happened on other parts of the World. I could imagine our team taking a boat South, maybe to Africa... It could have been awesome!

(pause to think)

All things considered, perhaps the most relevant thing missing on SSSS would be a closer relationship between Minna and her fans. More empathy, more availability to hear and interact with fans, even if it meant less updates each week. That would have contributed to bring more people in the fandom, instead of creating reasons to leave, as sadly happened (mainly with those two "incidents" we know so well). Because what really makes SSSS extraordinary to me is the community of extraordinary persons that gathered around it.

And that's why I want so much to give strength and energy to this Forum.

[Róisín]

Grey, I think Minna has given us enough of the background that between us we can carry the tale on in all manner of interesting directions. Happens sometimes also with folktales - consider how the American poet Robert Frost played with the developing canon of Paul Bunyan folklore. He took things barely hinted at in, or omitted from, the existing tales and played with them. Have you ever read his long poem ‘Paul’s Wife’? It is an utter delight, and has something of the same feel as those British tales of how the fisherman or lighthouse keeper came to marry the mermaid or the selchie. Being a lumberjack but nevertheless a decent man, of course he would marry a tree spirit or dryad or whatever kind of weird she is.

[thorny]

Have you ever read his long poem ‘Paul’s Wife’? It is an utter delight

Just looked it up again. Overall you're right; but there are at least two things about it that have not aged well at all.

[Jitter]

Yeah, so, I would have wiSSSShed to get some closure by learning what Lalli and Onni speak with their dead relatives before they have to go. But maybe we are being weaned off the characters? Certainly not the way to support the readers about the momentous end of the Hotakainen arc.

[JoB]

Yeah, so, I would have wiSSSShed to get some closure by learning what Lalli and Onni speak with their dead relatives before they have to go. But maybe we are being weaned off the characters? Certainly not the way to support the readers about the momentous end of the Hotakainen arc.

Quite frankly, if an author who discovered religion recently and aims to wrap up the previous storyline ASAP were to suddenly extoll in it at length how a Finnish family like her own breaks up "properly", it'd have me worried ...

[Jitter]

I went looking for some information and got reminded about a lot of scenes which I will hate to remain unexplained. For example,

What were the skulls in the scary reedy place where Reynir and Lalli ended up in when looking for Onni via dreamspace? What were the figures in the fog there? Why was the place dangerous, and why they followed Onni's... trace?? into that place? Why Reynir couldn't find Onni?

What is the thing in the Adv 2 prologue? Certainly it must be the Kade, but why is it there, why is it wearing such... shrouds?, what is it doing?

It seems the shrouds should have been significant, they are shown also on the cover. And the Kade infopage has it wearing something similar too.  And the entire dark magic unknown to the great Ensi Hotakainen deal with the concealment of the Package. 

Not to mention the emergency exorcism potential of the sentinel mages! Prior to page 450 the mageboys keep shielding their eyes in the dreamspace too, but from then on, it apparently doesn't matter.

Gaah! I am not going to believe this story includes everything it was originally meant to include. Of course, she makes her decisions and that's it. Still, it's a sad thing to witness. 

[tehta]

I thought the scary reedy place was an evil dreamspace version of their home, and that it was dangerous because the Kade was "nearby". (As was Onni, of course. But they couldn't keep looking safely.)

I am also pretty sure that Minna said she stopped drawing the mages with eyes covered because it was a lot of extra work.

...but of course I agree with you, overall. So many missed opportunities to tie things together! I will be very sad if the sentinel mages play absolutely no role (which it looks like they won't).

[thegreyarea]

Grey, I think Minna has given us enough of the background that between us we can carry the tale on in all manner of interesting directions. Happens sometimes also with folktales - consider how the American poet Robert Frost played with the developing canon of Paul Bunyan folklore. He took things barely hinted at in, or omitted from, the existing tales and played with them. Have you ever read his long poem ‘Paul’s Wife’? It is an utter delight, and has something of the same feel as those British tales of how the fisherman or lighthouse keeper came to marry the mermaid or the selchie. Being a lumberjack but nevertheless a decent man, of course he would marry a tree spirit or dryad or whatever kind of weird she is.

Róisín, I fully agree. We have a nice ground here to plant our seeds. And in some way it's better to have room to create than a fixed (and closed) canon. And thanks for the suggestion. I haven't read that poem but I'll try to, as soon as possible.

Jitter, all the points you mentioned are very interesting. It would be so good...

Tehta, I thought the same, that is was a bad place and they could attract the Kade. About the eyes covering, I believe on that reason you mentioned, however it would show (again) the extent of Minna's lack of investment on this final part. So I prefer to imagine that the Kade's enchantment doesn't work very well on the dreamspace.

And I just remembered another aspect that I wiSSSShed was developed in this second adventure: Lalli's powers.
He started with his ability to detect the infected, and that marvelous poem/song/enchantment to the moon (sadly we never saw anything like that again), then he showed the capacity to use his Luonto in the real world to hit multiple targets very fast, even if paying a health cost for it, and closer to the end of adventure 1 he was capable of destroying a giant with just his will! Again it had unpleasant "side effects", but I supposed that the "cost" of magic was a well-known part of being a Finninsh mage.
Yet there was no consequence! After Emil and Lalli arrived at the recovery point they would tell what happened, and there should be some reaction. Destroying a giant with magic! And he didn't even had much training! Onni, too, should have a reaction to that, yet... nothing.
Maybe Minna thought a superpowered Lalli would make things too easy for the party... But that could be balanced by the need to "recharge" after each time.
And on adventure 2 all we came back to the beginning and, unless Lalli does some magic trick right at the end, all we see of his powers outside the dreamworld is the ability to detect the infected...

 

[lwise]

unless Lalli does some magic trick right at the end, all we see of his powers outside the dreamworld is the ability to detect the infected...

Well, that and detecting lime-green umbrellas.

[Róisín]

Grey, if we wished there is no reason why we should not make our own runos to use in our fanfic. The form is extant in our world and well established as a poetic form in Finnish tradition and folklore, with many, many runos being written down and even a large number recorded from traditional singers. Did you ever hear the beautiful recording that Unlos put up in the Forum years ago of herself singing a runo? I can’t find it any more, but it was wonderful.

Many cultures use singing magics all across the world, not just the Finns. The spells are usually based on traditional forms of verse or music, and many of the patterns are shared with/overlap with folksongs, instrumental tunes and other traditional arts. I have heard that beautiful Irish tune ‘South Wind’ played as part of a weatherworking spell, for which purpose it functioned quite well.

The effect of singing magics seems to depend on a combination of artistry and skill, fitness for purpose of the words and music, firmness of will and innate power of the mage, or if they are calling on an outside source to work their magic then the willingness to cooperate and innate power of that source.

Anyway, if you would care to see what I did with the runo form in my fanfic, try a story called ‘Caring for a Friend’. It is on Archive of Our Own, where I am Tanist. The story is of Lalli’s quest to retrieve the soul of Emil, who is near death from an infected wound. I co-opted traditions of Shamanic journeys to do such things from several cultures, including the Finnish, which have such methods, and used the runo form for Lalli’s spells, and modified it to a more Nordic related form for the Wanderer’s replies when he decides not to squash Lalli like a bug for his boldness in venturing into the Nordic otherworld.

[tehta]

Well, that and detecting lime-green umbrellas.

So true.

I agree that both Lalli and Onni seem to be less magic-y now. Couldn't Onni have used more magic on those bears?
Perhaps it's dangerous to use flashy magic near the Kade? The way it seems to be dangerous to poke around in a dreamspace? (It's probably not what Minna intended, but it could be a canon fix.)

BTW, my impression was that Lalli's spell against the giant was the same we had seen him use e.g. against Sleipnope, a shield/forcefield of light? So, he just shield-bashed the giant in a vulnerable spot, and the light was what really hurt? Also, I don't think fighting huge nasties is a particularly new use of Finnish magic: Onni can attack multiple trolls and complex ghosts over a pretty long distance, using his owl form and a summoning.

And speaking of fanfic runos, Jitter wrote one. You can find a link in the 'nsfw fics' section. Because it's very much nsfw.

[Suominoita]

I went looking for some information and got reminded about a lot of scenes which I will hate to remain unexplained. For example,

What were the skulls in the scary reedy place where Reynir and Lalli ended up in when looking for Onni via dreamspace? What were the figures in the fog there? Why was the place dangerous, and why they followed Onni's... trace?? into that place? Why Reynir couldn't find Onni?

Well, maybe Onni was in Tuonela picking up Tuuri when they tried to find him? That would surely be a place NOT to go to. It is off limits to any who is not a dead Finn - except a Finnish mage may get away with a visit if he has a good enough reason.

[Róisín]

 Getting to Tuonela was hard, getting back much harder. Lots of folktales and poems on the subject. I remember back in the early days one of the Finns (Mikko? Laufey maybe?) posted a translation of a poem about a mage clinging by his fingernails to a rock before being swept away in the river of Death.

[Jitter]

Yeah, Väinämöinen went to Tuonela at least a couple of times, but he’s a god/demigod/godlike mythical hero depending on who you ask. And it wasn’t easy for him either.

Excellent suggestion, Suominoita! It makes sense, the scary reedy place could be an area close to the entrance to Tuonela?

All of this reminds me that I would have loved to learn more about the gods and religious practices of both Finns and the Asatru.

And if Koli ends up being just a dramatic landscape to play backdrop to events that could happen anywhere, it will be a bitter disappointment for me personally. I was hoping, almost banking on, them getting in touch with the powerful nature spirits living there. There is still some ho0e for that, although I’m not holding my breath.