Author Topic: aRTD re-read  (Read 13610 times)

JoB

  • Mage of the Great Restructuring
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2021, 03:09:11 AM »
Oh and moose can swim, and dive, they are very good swimmers and cross open expanses of lakes to get to islands. They also dive for water plants into depths of several meters.
Yup, I've seen those pictures online! And I've always been very shocked. Apparently, one of the moose's main predators is orca whales, which confused many people on the internet because they didn't know moose could swim.
Unless I've misunderstood, the moose in the Nordic have to go graze underwater, because plant life on land alone wouldn't provide enough sustenance for such large herbivores to survive the winters up there ...
native: :de: secondary: :us: :fr:
:artd: :book1+: :book2: :book3: :book4: etc.
PGP Key 0xBEF02A15, Fingerprint C12C 53DC BB92 2FE5 9725  C1AE 5E0F F1AF BEF0 2A15

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2021, 05:45:53 AM »
Catbirds, the singing and storytelling were good. Dusty and I have both lived and worked in the Snowy Mountains, Gippsland, New Zealand and FNQ, and know a lot of songs and folktales from those areas as well as general folk music or things we make ourselves. He moved to Adelaide for the same reason I did, to marry someone who lived here. His wife sings too, mostly choral stuff, music hall and British folk, and her storytelling is mostly local history or things she learned from people she has worked with up on the Lands. Star (my husband) likes folk and filk, used to play the dulcimer but not so much any more. He has one of those beautiful dark brown deep singing voices. The others both like general folk, and one of them composes a lot of music for his kids. He and Dusty play a lot of instruments between them and can play some of mine that my damaged hands can no longer manage. Liz has my big harp until my grandkids need it, and I can still play bodhran and small harp. We had fun.
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

Jitter

  • Valkyrie
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • *
  • JOE guardian, SS Kuru keeper, Finn with some magic
  • Preferred pronouns: She/her, they/their
  • Posts: 4190
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2021, 10:39:38 AM »
JoB, I think it’s not sustenance as in amount of energy per se, but that the mineral content is higher in aquatic plants and it’s hard to get enough minerals for auch a large animal without them.

Thorny I forgot to thank you for your description of rhythm of tractor work! It’s always interesting to learn how people view and feel about various activities, and your description evokes a sort of beauty to it all!

I have also been privileged lately to see animals during my work day, there are a couple or perhaps three red squirrels living in our garden and and I see them on most days when working on my desk. And even when the squirrels don’t appear, there are birds. It’s a delight! Some while ago a small flock of bullfinches were jumping in the bushes, it’s been ages since I’ve seen them although they are not particularly rare (yet…)
🇫🇮 🇬🇧 🇸🇪 🇫🇷 (🇩🇪)(🇯🇵)((🇨🇳))

:A2chap03: :A2chap04: :A2chap05:

Proud ruler of Joensuu Airport, Admiral of S/S Kuru on the Finnish lake systems. Also the Water Mother.

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2021, 09:33:31 PM »
Always nice to see wildlife while working outside, isn’t it? We have many different birds, ranging from tiny wrens, honeyeaters and silvereyes to big kookaburras, magpies, Australian ravens and mountain jays, plus owls, hawks and the occasional wedgetail eagle. Lots of small animals too, including both ringtail and brushtail possums, marsupial mice and a few bandicoots, and the occasional wallaby or kangaroo wandering past at dawn or dusk to nibble my roses or eat the chicory. We are right near the edge of our tiny town, so things do wander in from the bush. Plus the big lizards such as bluetongues and shinglebacks, tiny lizards like geckos and skinks, and a few snakes (the birds usually warn about those if they get too close, which is good - I don’t want to hurt them or to get bitten). And I love to watch the microbats changing shifts with the swifts and swallows at dusk, as they hunt flying insects around the porch light and in the warm air rising over the driveway.

We have lots of insects too: my European bees in their hive plus many different native bees, lots of moths and butterflies, mantids and mantispids and all manner of tiny crawling things. I love watching the animals.
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

catbirds

  • Guest
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2021, 01:58:53 AM »
If I recall correctly, today's the start of the Discussion for Chapter 5! (up to page 331)

Taking a break from my (due very soon) French assignment because I'm so tired! Ugh, I'll get through it eventually.

The bear chapter isn't my favourite, but it's definitely one of the cutest with the Hannu/Ville interactions. People are generally afraid of bears because they're big and strong (enough to kill you), so seeing them snuggle up to sleep or work together is very nice. But also not recommended in real life! I wouldn't go near wild animals at all. Also, the intensity of their interactions with the crows is... well, it's there. Terrifying.

It's also funny to see Hannu get terrified when he wakes up to Bear-Ville. Also, this weird stylistic thing (p. 306) that Minna does where the eye colour is practically glowing and waaay more vibrant than usual when characters get scared? Interesting. A bit of a side tangent, but I have pretty dark brown eyes, and it's always amusing to me when I think about how that thing wouldn't work at all if you tried to draw me in a cartoon. (I like my eyes, though. Minus the myopia.)

Weird side note about her comments on p. 324. Are portfolio review days standard in European art schools? Here, we just get into an art school with whatever we have and then just work and work on our art skills for however long our programs last.

General comments:
  • I noticed a while ago that aRTD doesn't have ads on it anymore. How long has it been like this? To be fair, I'm pretty sure SSSS is Minna's primary source of income anyway, and aRTD has far fewer regular users.
  • It's nice reading comic pages that clearly were very enthusiastically drawn. I mean, we've already more or less agreed that this comic is pretty problematic in some respects, but it's still clear that she put a lot of attention and care into drawing these pages. It's just something about the way the characters interact with the world that makes them feel a little more realistic and makes you care about what they're doing and why and how (and also kind of why I want Hannu to just be a better person, but alas,). Also, her comments are very spirited, even though I'm pretty sure she was tired all the time, with her being a uni student and having either insomnia or migraines or both? Either way, with the general mopey-ness of how the current SSSS pages are unfolding and how we're reacting to it, reading aRTD is a nice change in perspective.
  • I should read the comments more often.
Always nice to see wildlife while working outside, isn’t it? We have many different birds, ranging from tiny wrens, honeyeaters and silvereyes to big kookaburras, magpies, Australian ravens and mountain jays, plus owls, hawks and the occasional wedgetail eagle.
Wow! Australian birds are my favourite. They're so colourful, and some videos uploaded by Australians just show such bright and happy little creatures bouncing around outside. I have two budgies at home and I love them dearly, but of course, I'd love to see all the other birds of Australia.

Star (my husband) likes folk and filk, used to play the dulcimer but not so much any more. He has one of those beautiful dark brown deep singing voices. The others both like general folk, and one of them composes a lot of music for his kids. He and Dusty play a lot of instruments between them and can play some of mine that my damaged hands can no longer manage. Liz has my big harp until my grandkids need it, and I can still play bodhran and small harp. We had fun.
Sounds like it. I kind of wish that such community music events were still prioritized in any cultures where it was ever a thing! A lot of my friends learned to play piano and violin only for formal events, which are probably fun, but I just wish we could have a cheerful session of singing and dancing like that.

My family is pretty devoid of instrument owners. I should look into that.

catbirds

  • Guest
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2021, 10:35:35 PM »
Okay, so today's the calendar date I set for the start of the discussion for the rest of chapter 5, but a lot of people have already read or finished it or maybe just want to discuss the entire thing, so I'm kind of considering just letting it be an open discussion. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Anyway, obligatory warnings for chapter 6:
Spoiler: show

Drowning, or the threat of drowning, a scene that could be interpreted as abuse IDK.


This chapter is definitely one where I wonder how Hannu is still alive. Unless the snow and the hood were great cushions... those impacts just look like they really hurt.

Also, I loved the part where Kokko comes swooping in. Hmmmm... I'm fond of the muted colours in this chapter, and the streaks of orange when Kokko appears still feel incredibly magical. And the way the hot winds he brings are stylized is perfect for the mythological setting. This is the feeling that I loved so much about this comic, and probably the one I'll remember for the longest time, despite my other feelings surrounding the comic.

I think probably my biggest nitpick with this chapter is the portrayal of ravens and the wanton killing of them at the end. It's one of those animals that I think gets misunderstood because of their appearance, but that's probably just me.

Hmmmm... I don't know if there's much else to talk about. Not positively, anyway. I enjoy Hannu and Ville's interactions, but they don't really play off each other in interesting ways and in my opinion their relationship dynamic undergoes minimal change throughout the story, aside from what happens between transformations. It's nice to see the genuine fondness they have for each other, though, especially at the very end of the story, but for the most part the discrete chapters are somewhat of a weakness for this chapter. Especially since their task this time requires them to leave the villagers entirely, it's pretty much just like a fetch quest.

I still enjoyed the "action" in this chapter, though. If we don't consider all the implications I mentioned, it's still a pretty entertaining and silly sequence of events that seem almost impossible.

JoB

  • Mage of the Great Restructuring
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2021, 04:08:25 AM »
This chapter is definitely one where I wonder how Hannu is still alive. Unless the snow and the hood were great cushions... those impacts just look like they really hurt.
They sure did, but a) that's not his actual body (and if there were a strict correlation between the real and the astral one, the latter could not get more or less injured than the former, which is frozen in time for most of the story), and b) what would happen if he died only in the dream, as he's already headed towards Tuonela along The Birds' Path there, anyway?

I think probably my biggest nitpick with this chapter is the portrayal of ravens and the wanton killing of them at the end. It's one of those animals that I think gets misunderstood because of their appearance, but that's probably just me.
Well, those ravens are most definitely not a representation of the average real world raven, but some of the story's villains, including the monologueing about their (modestly) evil (but still perdition-promising, though they probably didn't know that) plans. In both cases, they chose to interfere with the heroes first. (I'm not sure whether we can credit them, rather than Minna / the comic's rating, for Hannu and Ville remaining entirely unharmed by their actions, but that's why I'm not saying that they attacked first.)

If you read the comments on those pages, I would have recommended that Hannu instead used death threats against Kurri, or took him hostage, and I still stand by that, but I can't say that I'd consider that that much morally superior ... Hannu and Ville are fighting for their, and others', lives there, after all ...
native: :de: secondary: :us: :fr:
:artd: :book1+: :book2: :book3: :book4: etc.
PGP Key 0xBEF02A15, Fingerprint C12C 53DC BB92 2FE5 9725  C1AE 5E0F F1AF BEF0 2A15

catbirds

  • Guest
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2021, 12:24:04 AM »
A week's past and now we're at probably the most concerning chapter, Chapter 6!

Uhhhh... yeah. Very concerning, Hannu's kind of just an awful guy here. I don't like it much because at the end, he insists that Tuomi will be fine, but Tuomi is a teenager who thinks no one understands him and Hannu just kind of makes it worse by 1. assaulting him, 2. destroying something important to him, and then 3. possibly drowning him? It's a little Yikes. But hey, if Minna's ultimate goal was to show how terrible Hannu is, then she's been pretty successful by far. I know I cringed at this chapter a few years ago, despite understanding Hannu up until that point.

My more generous interpretation of this chapter is that he's just very irritated after this long journey. Not that you should start being terrible to people after being tired, but Hannu's definitely weary by then. Also, I can vaguely understand why the adults in my life tolerated me as a teenager because of this, but still... eh. Not fond of this, anyway.

To be fair, though, it does make it more dramatic, but I dislike the narrative's attempt to wrap the chapter up by saying Hannu was right or is wiser. Well, that sums up my feelings about most of these chapters. It'd be fine if Hannu weren't depicted as wiser for this, or for generally being unempathetic.

Alternatively, I hope this isn't based on Minna's personal experience, on either side of this interaction.

What else... Yeah, this has my favourite colour palette because of how muted and quiet it is. It feels so peaceful... Also, the paintings of the rocks in the background make them look like they're shrouded in mist.

They sure did, but a) that's not his actual body (and if there were a strict correlation between the real and the astral one, the latter could not get more or less injured than the former, which is frozen in time for most of the story), and b) what would happen if he died only in the dream, as he's already headed towards Tuonela along The Birds' Path there, anyway?

LMAO sorry I thought I replied to this last week. Must've forgotten to click post. Ummm.... it's pretty ambiguous and I think Puppy-Fox initially meant to use him to get away with his mistake because of his current real-world condition, so if he died it wouldn't have been a big deal. The only indication of how he "heals" or gets injured is one throwaway line by Mr. Moose, saying that he heals slower than if they were in the real world, which makes no sense or indicates that they're all souls that are still in some kind of stasis.

This might end up as a really long analysis about what a human soul is, so maybe not tonight for me unless anyone wants. But hopefully Puppy-Fox has a backup because either way, he wouldn't be able to get away with even a couple souls slipping through.

Well, those ravens are most definitely not a representation of the average real world raven, but some of the story's villains, including the monologueing about their (modestly) evil (but still perdition-promising, though they probably didn't know that) plans. In both cases, they chose to interfere with the heroes first. (I'm not sure whether we can credit them, rather than Minna / the comic's rating, for Hannu and Ville remaining entirely unharmed by their actions, but that's why I'm not saying that they attacked first.)

If you read the comments on those pages, I would have recommended that Hannu instead used death threats against Kurri, or took him hostage, and I still stand by that, but I can't say that I'd consider that that much morally superior ... Hannu and Ville are fighting for their, and others', lives there, after all ...

Hmm... Well, I'm not a fan of ravens being depicted as evil in general. It's kind of just an overdone trope that I don't care much for, but it's not a big deal if it does happen. Either way, the ravens are a weird addition to the setting and they feel kind of... out of place? At least they're dream animals, probably. Keeping track of how this thing works is starting to get difficult, though.

But like in Chapter 6, the conflict does add something interesting to the story, even if it feels tangential. I've never heard of any cases of ravens being that deliberately cruel, though. Or that they can actually hurt people? I mean people are so much larger and birds usually have better things to do.

Also, I'm pretty sure neither the ravens nor Hannu are good people. But it's true, they're fighting for people's lives... I guess I'll have to give them that. Even though the more efficient option would definitely be to just ignore the ravens, but I would've lashed out at them too if they were being as mean as they were in ch. 5.

JoB

  • Mage of the Great Restructuring
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2021, 12:34:21 PM »
Uhhhh... yeah. Very concerning, Hannu's kind of just an awful guy here. I don't like it much because at the end, he insists that Tuomi will be fine, but Tuomi is a teenager who thinks no one understands him and Hannu just kind of makes it worse by 1. assaulting him, 2. destroying something important to him, and then 3. possibly drowning him? It's a little Yikes. But hey, if Minna's ultimate goal was to show how terrible Hannu is, then she's been pretty successful by far. I know I cringed at this chapter a few years ago, despite understanding Hannu up until that point.
It's certainly a harsh treatment, but if you have a look at the comments, Minna repeatedly confirmed that Tuomi and his human friends, possibly even Pikku Jänis, would have been DEAD if Hannu and Ville hadn't gotten them shoved out the dream pocket's foxhole and back into their real world lives. Add to that that we later see the resurrected people (Paju at least) remembering almost nothing of what had happened ...

I dislike the narrative's attempt to wrap the chapter up by saying Hannu was right or is wiser.
That sounds like you assume that Minna wrote the chapter, and particularly that resolution, for the specific purpose of promoting violent solutions to real-life disagreements. If that were the case, I'd wonder why she would've felt necessary to add the other chapters to ARtD ...

Alternatively, I hope this isn't based on Minna's personal experience, on either side of this interaction.
Note that Hannu specifically called his approach waterboarding (which it wasn't), in a comic page drawn 2012-ish, relatively shortly after it became a matter of public discussion in the U.S./Iraq context (the ICRC report on its use in Guantanamo was published in 2007, the last publication on interrogators having used a "modified" procedure of their own design came 2014).

I think Puppy-Fox initially meant to use him to get away with his mistake because of his current real-world condition, so if he died it wouldn't have been a big deal.
With the usual segregation between humans and the spirit world shown in ARtD, even a living and remembering Hannu (plus all the trips his soul would continue to make on The Birds' Path, from everytime he sleeps to his final transfer to Tuonela) would not have been a serious threat to Puppy-Fox' cover-up. He might have liked coincidally getting rid of Hannu the fast way (which still wouldn't have removed Ville as a surviving witness that the spirits can talk to), and he positively tried to kill them both when he thought his peers might find them red-handed, but he thought out loud (at us readers) that it would take several other spirits in the know to really blow his cover, while only an entire group of out-of-turn-dead humans would, in turn, draw their attention.

Speaking of which, I just noticed something: Puppy-Fox handed Hannu and Ville the amulets, which were in the shape of the avatar (or whatever to call it) of some spirit animal that was present in the dream pocket. Simultaneously, he was afraid of the actual spirit animals finding out what he was up to. But the latter turned out to be aware of what their avatar had experienced in the dream pocket, as evidenced by Ms. Squirrel and Mr. Viper trying to get into the Fox Meeting to alert them to the goings-on. So, by setting up six or seven such dreams (I'm not sure whether chapter 7 qualifies as just another fox dream, or The Real Realm of What I Won't Spoiler Here), he effectively created 6-7 witnesses to testify against him. Doesn't that mean that he totally blew his cover himself right from square one!? Maybe Kokko should've pointed out to him that he had already lost ...

But like in Chapter 6, the conflict does add something interesting to the story, even if it feels tangential. I've never heard of any cases of ravens being that deliberately cruel, though. Or that they can actually hurt people? I mean people are so much larger and birds usually have better things to do.
Corvids do remember human individuals who mistreated their kind, so "why does that raven keep picking on that one guy!?" scenarios are entirely possible - if the eyewitness is unaware of how the "victim" initially wronged the bird.

Also, ravens are inextricably linked to centuries of public executions in Europe where the delinquents' bodies were left on display and ravens proved their status as carrion eaters. Including their endearing habit of picking out eyes first, to reduce the effectiveness of any resistance that may still happen.
native: :de: secondary: :us: :fr:
:artd: :book1+: :book2: :book3: :book4: etc.
PGP Key 0xBEF02A15, Fingerprint C12C 53DC BB92 2FE5 9725  C1AE 5E0F F1AF BEF0 2A15

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2021, 06:31:42 PM »
It is certainly true that real-world corvids have long memories for people who have wronged them. So do many others of the brighter birds. I have seen it happen with magpies, hawks, keas, other parrots, seagulls and most notably a female plover, who for several years singled out to attack one man among a group, he being the one who had accidentally trampled her nest. Interestingly, she could pick him from the group whether he was in or out of uniform or whether he was wearing hat or sunglasses or not. Birds are often smarter than humans expect.
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

catbirds

  • Guest
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #85 on: December 26, 2021, 05:45:49 AM »
u_u second last chapter here we go! Discussion for chapter 7 for those of you who are still reading or replying! (I'm a bit late oops)

Uhhh this is my favourite chapter! Also coincidentally the most gory, subjectively. Chapter 5 and Chapter 8 are also quite gory, but in different ways. This one's more horror-gore, but it's unrealistic enough to not bother me too much! This chapter's short and to-the-point, despite that the big reveal of Hannu being... almost dead is one of the most important plot events. A lot goes on in relatively few pages, and it becomes this swirling banner of orange and purple, punctuated by red. Accidental or not, Minna struck gold with the colour choices, I think.

If I'm understanding it correctly, it's a glimpse at what goes on in Tuonela? Quite different from the most recent depiction of sleeping souls in SSSS. I wonder what drove Minna to change how she depicted it... maybe Tuuri would just be more convenient in bird form :V

There's still the underlying feeling of "wow these people all kind of suck" for me, but all the existential terror and stuff in this chapter just did it. It also makes me feel a little bad for Hannu for once. Surely nobody deserved that kind of end.

It's certainly a harsh treatment, but if you have a look at the comments, Minna repeatedly confirmed that Tuomi and his human friends, possibly even Pikku Jänis, would have been DEAD if Hannu and Ville hadn't gotten them shoved out the dream pocket's foxhole and back into their real world lives. Add to that that we later see the resurrected people (Paju at least) remembering almost nothing of what had happened ...
That sounds like you assume that Minna wrote the chapter, and particularly that resolution, for the specific purpose of promoting violent solutions to real-life disagreements. If that were the case, I'd wonder why she would've felt necessary to add the other chapters to ARtD ...

Uhhh unfortunately "they'd be dead if not for me" doesn't really slide off as a good reason for people to be terrible to someone they helped, but oh well. I don't really think "it's okay to do something that would normally scar a teenager for life as long as they don't remember it" is a great line of thought either, but you're right, it is, in fact, a dream. But it seems like Paju's brief statement implies that some feeling or urge follows them back into reality. That kind of gets into speculation about how the magic in this universe works, though, and I don't think even Minna fleshed that out totally. (Besides, I don't think Puppy-Fox ever mentioned that they wouldn't remember any of this)

It's obvious that Minna didn't write any of it to directly parallel how real people should act, but it's true that Hannu is ultimately rewarded for his poor behaviour and selfishness, what with his parents coddling him and most other villagers tugging their hairs out while he shirks his duties and social obligations in real life. Especially after chapter 6, as I said, the framing of the final scene is that Hannu just imparted some wise advice and his actions in the chapter are fine. But you can also briefly see this right after Mr. Moose's lesson on morality and I think around when Hannu meets the ravens, where he says something along the lines of how he doesn't care about what others say?

I don't really know what to make of this because characters who are self-motivated or morally imperfect are usually interesting, but Hannu's just so grating to me because the story seems to point to that one of the messages is that the way Hannu acts is good. I think it'd have been nice to just see an instance of how Hannu's actions hurt people (in real life, not in the dream), since if the story was going for a realistic "small village" dynamic, it's impossible for his actions to have not caused harm. Even if Hannu learns nothing from it. But that's a bit of a tangent. This is probably a wish-fulfillment story, after all, and it might even be unrealistic for me to expect all that from someone's "practice" comic.

Personally, I've found that the small selfish actions that someone like Hannu would take will add up over time to create an exhausting and imbalanced relationship. Not to mention how so many of the other villagers are also terrible to each other in small ways. In my mind, going into that throughout this comic's run of like 550 or so pages would've given the villagers a lot more depth, but whatever. Minna was 20 ish when she made this comic, it's actually unrealistic of me to expect that someone at that age knew how to portray human relationships perfectly. Speaking from experience. Even if it irritates me.

Speaking of which, I just noticed something: Puppy-Fox handed Hannu and Ville the amulets, which were in the shape of the avatar (or whatever to call it) of some spirit animal that was present in the dream pocket. Simultaneously, he was afraid of the actual spirit animals finding out what he was up to.

Yeah, upon reflection, I found that this made no sense to me whatsoever. My guess is that the animals were needed somehow to sustain the dream, but again, speculation. Either that, or those pockets are hooked up to some master dream-network where all these important mythological figures are? I don't know, it's hard to wrap your head around why there was a "genuine" Kokko's nest or a "genuine" Tuonela, etc etc... unless there's some degree of reality to what they're seeing, in the context of the spiritual stuff.

It is certainly true that real-world corvids have long memories for people who have wronged them. So do many others of the brighter birds. I have seen it happen with magpies, hawks, keas, other parrots, seagulls and most notably a female plover, who for several years singled out to attack one man among a group, he being the one who had accidentally trampled her nest. Interestingly, she could pick him from the group whether he was in or out of uniform or whether he was wearing hat or sunglasses or not. Birds are often smarter than humans expect.

Huh... can birds recognize faces? I know my birds can recognize me with or without my glasses on, which is pretty fascinating. A lot of animals are very smart, too. Surely they'd also know when people did something kind to them, but considering how humans relied on animals for food or were often violent to them or feared them for diseases, maybe that kind of story's just a lot rarer.

thorny

  • Ruler of a Derelict Airport
  • *****
  • Preferred pronouns: either female or gender-neutral
  • Posts: 2341
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #86 on: December 26, 2021, 03:04:37 PM »
If I'm understanding it correctly, it's a glimpse at what goes on in Tuonela? Quite different from the most recent depiction of sleeping souls in SSSS.

It made no sense to me at all that (among other things) the Swan runs away from Ville, as if Ville could possibly pose any threat to the manifestation of Death itself.

Huh... can birds recognize faces? I know my birds can recognize me with or without my glasses on, which is pretty fascinating.

It might not be the faces that they're recognizing. I think it's quite clear that at least some birds can recognize individual people; but I don't know whether there's been any research as to how they do so. Most humans tend to rely on vision in general and on faces in particular; but birds might be doing something else entirely.

Róisín

  • Traveller on the Bird's Path
  • Elder of the Ruined Realm
  • ********
  • Posts: 8636
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #87 on: December 26, 2021, 09:56:45 PM »
thorny and catbirds, I have found that the birds who pass through my garden or who live there certainly seem to recognise me. At least, it is me they approach, even if I am outside with several other people, whenever they wish to draw my attention to something in the garden that needs me to do something about it, such as a snake or some other intruding animal. They sit on a branch in front of me, make their alarm calls, and fly toward whatever is bothering them, and then back to me again. Dunno if it is my face, hair, glasses, general feel or what, but they certainly seem to be able to pick me out of a group.

One of my late aunts who was a wildlife carer and especially liked rearing orphaned native birds, or caring for injured ones, was certainly recognised and remembered by many of the birds she had cared for. I have seen magpies, kookaburras, butcher birds and various corvids that she had cared for and released back into the wild bring back their offspring to show her. The birds would line up their youngsters on the clothesline, tap on the kitchen window to get her attention if she was not already in the garden, and she would come out to them and feed them tiny pieces of raw meat, insects, fruit or seeds, depending on what those particular birds ate, and she would make friends with the young ones. When she died in extreme old age she was found by the young man who had come to cut her hedges, where she had been sitting on the back verandah with her morning cup of tea in her lap and several birds complaining at her feet.

A young friend who had cared for and released an injured young Australian raven had him come back to visit many times after she had returned him to the wild, and again, he could distinguish her among several people.
Avatar is courtesy of the amazing Haiz!

JoB

  • Mage of the Great Restructuring
  • Admiral of a Sunken Ship
  • ******
  • Posts: 4117
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #88 on: December 27, 2021, 02:51:13 AM »
If I'm understanding it correctly, it's a glimpse at what goes on in Tuonela? Quite different from the most recent depiction of sleeping souls in SSSS. I wonder what drove Minna to change how she depicted it... maybe Tuuri would just be more convenient in bird form :V
I'm certainly not an expert on Finnish mythology, but off the top of my head, I'd guess that ye olden Finns did not spend much thought on what bodily form the dead might have in Tuonela ... the lucky few returning from there in human bodies while everyone needs to be carried there by normal-sized birds does not exactly promise an easy-to-find, contradiction free answer. :3

Uhhh unfortunately "they'd be dead if not for me" doesn't really slide off as a good reason for people to be terrible to someone they helped, but oh well. I don't really think "it's okay to do something that would normally scar a teenager for life as long as they don't remember it" is a great line of thought either
Well, yes, certainly. If you can come up with less terrible measures (or better reasoning, and all the pondering done within the original strict deadline, of course), be my guest. And yes, I'm aware of the "ticking time bomb" fallacy and willing to comdemn the couple policemen it led to think that the rules would not apply to them and this particular bad guy (looking at you, chief Daschner). The difference (to me ...) being that Hannu has certainty about the consequences of inaction (as far as a mere human can get from the spirits), and is giving a net gain even to the person he's treating poorly (as apposed to forcing the guy to "take one for the team"). Well, in the case of this one person he treats (particularly) poorly ...

(Besides, I don't think Puppy-Fox ever mentioned that they wouldn't remember any of this)
... true. I guess I inferred it from his general impulse to hide his mishap not stopping him from returning the villagers to life, but it's unclear how he'd rate living human witnesses in comparison to fellow spirit ones. (Or dead humans, who apparently still get to talk with The Swan before going into perpetual silence, for that matter.)

Hannu is ultimately rewarded for his poor behaviour and selfishness, what with his parents coddling him and most other villagers tugging their hairs out while he shirks his duties and social obligations in real life. Especially after chapter 6, as I said, the framing of the final scene is that Hannu just imparted some wise advice and his actions in the chapter are fine. But you can also briefly see this right after Mr. Moose's lesson on morality and I think around when Hannu meets the ravens, where he says something along the lines of how he doesn't care about what others say?
Sure, Hannu is a questionable person in general, on account of him being one when circumstances do not provide him with excuses to doing so. (Or sufficient motivation not to be.) No contest there.

I think it'd have been nice to just see an instance of how Hannu's actions hurt people (in real life, not in the dream), since if the story was going for a realistic "small village" dynamic, it's impossible for his actions to have not caused harm. Even if Hannu learns nothing from it.
His tale of what he used old Pekka's crossbow for did include a shot into Riikka's leg ... and how "everyone got all angry" about it. (No hint at how old he actually was back then, but he remembers and doesn't seem very sorry about his deed to this day, so ...)

it's hard to wrap your head around why there was a "genuine" Kokko's nest or a "genuine" Tuonela, etc etc...
The nest was needed to establish a rapport from inside the dream pocket to Kokko (supposedly the genuine one), to get the task at hand done. It being there isn't any stranger than all the other props being at hand, from the amulets to The Horn Surma Would Run From. IIRC Mr. Bear said that the nest was not the genuine one, but some sort of reflection into the dream.

Tuonela was genuine - after all, the villagers' souls were headed there (aboard overeager birds) when Puppy-Fox established the dream pockets to delay, and eventually prevent, their arrival there. Also, Kokko specifically warned Hannu that he's about to step out of Puppy's dreams and into (the real) Tuonela.

Huh... can birds recognize faces? I know my birds can recognize me with or without my glasses on, which is pretty fascinating. A lot of animals are very smart, too. Surely they'd also know when people did something kind to them, but considering how humans relied on animals for food or were often violent to them or feared them for diseases, maybe that kind of story's just a lot rarer.
I'm not aware offhand of experiments showing that birds can recognize faces, but I do remember that it has been shown that they can find (and use) abstract concepts behind photos they're shown - as in, correctly extrapolate when being shown a new photo. And of course there's a couple birds that passed the Mirror Test, thus thought to have a concept of their own identity.

It made no sense to me at all that (among other things) the Swan runs away from Ville, as if Ville could possibly pose any threat to the manifestation of Death itself.
It is shown later that the neck wound that Hannu and Ville cooperatively inflicted lingers and forces The Swan to rest, so there's a certain cost (of missing other work) to forcing the issue of Hannu and Ville right away. Pain and panic might also have played a role, if I interpret the Swan's facial expression correctly.
native: :de: secondary: :us: :fr:
:artd: :book1+: :book2: :book3: :book4: etc.
PGP Key 0xBEF02A15, Fingerprint C12C 53DC BB92 2FE5 9725  C1AE 5E0F F1AF BEF0 2A15

thorny

  • Ruler of a Derelict Airport
  • *****
  • Preferred pronouns: either female or gender-neutral
  • Posts: 2341
Re: aRTD re-read
« Reply #89 on: December 27, 2021, 09:07:15 AM »
It is shown later that the neck wound that Hannu and Ville cooperatively inflicted lingers and forces The Swan to rest, so there's a certain cost (of missing other work) to forcing the issue of Hannu and Ville right away. Pain and panic might also have played a role, if I interpret the Swan's facial expression correctly.

But why can Hannu and/or Ville wound Death? And why should Death have been in a panic?

They seem to be dealing with a normal swan, not with the being in charge of Tuonela.