aRTD re-read

[thorny]

But -- but -- but -- if you could learn Everything In The World, if it were possible to do that: what would you do the day after, and for the rest of your life?

It would be awful!

(I was the weird kid who had the word BUT written in large print all across the notebook binder we carried around classes all day.)

[Róisín]

Obviously I would start extrapolating and combining bits of knowledge from different disciplines to find promising paths by which new things might be learned. The amount of new things to find out is as infinite as the universe! I think the only limitation is the mind doing the exploring.

[catbirds]

But -- but -- but -- if you could learn Everything In The World, if it were possible to do that: what would you do the day after, and for the rest of your life?

It would be awful!

I had a similar fear and I still kind of do now that I'm still in the years where you just learn until you "don't." It's terrifying to just keep tumbling down that hill and accumulating knowledge until you hit a wall, but I guess that's what experts in a field are supposed to work with. As Roisin said!

Like, I hated so much the idea that I would not be learning EVERYTHING in university, just one specialized field, and I couldn't even pick one in the end! But I think for our own mental health and the well-being of all others, we're supposed to learn things together (as humanity).

But also in the information age, it's pretty overwhelming no matter how much you want or don't want to learn.

[Róisín]

All true, catbirds! But learning new things is often fun, often daunting, and always endlessly fascinating. I feel as if I have barely scratched the surface of knowing!

[tehta]

I had a similar fear and I still kind of do now that I'm still in the years where you just learn until you "don't."

I am not sure I understand that. What years are those?

My experience of learning is:
-- I am very much a generalist. I was interested in All The Subjects at school and still enjoy reading all sorts of random nonfiction.
-- I am also a specialist, in that I have a PhD (in a subfield of Artificial Intelligence) and now use my expertise in industry. Anyway, I am very much aware that, even in my field, I don't know everything and never have, and even if I learned everything one day, the boundaries of knowledge would have moved the day after. And even AI aside, my software-related job requires pretty much constant learning to stay on top of things.

[catbirds]

I am not sure I understand that. What years are those?

Eeeeh... I don't really have a specific age in mind. A couple of older people I've met while working downtown pretty much just stopped doing any learning after they graduated university, but that's a really small sample size either way.

I mean, it's hard to quantify knowledge in any case, but generally when people get jobs that are completely draining and repetitive, and maybe they're always in poor working conditions, they don't have their minds on learning or artistic pursuits (not impossible, but it's difficult). A lot of people I've seen on this forum have had some amount of post-secondary education, but I know plenty of people who don't have any experience in academia and require judgement and problem-solving to do their jobs and learn for as long as they work.

Of course, not everyone has this experience and this is pretty loaded coming from a... kid? It's really just about me and my fear of stagnating. I also have a lot of really scattered and general skills and interests, and when I'm tired because school feels like a slog, I kind of just... stop doing the things I love for a little while...

[Róisín]

Then there are the people who do some ghastly mechanical slog of a job and at the end of the day write, sing or play amazing music - I have known a lot of those down the years. Plus we have a number of them among the volunteers for our community projects, who live for their volunteer work, which can be incredibly creative. Jobs that keep your family fed are not always the most inspiring things.

[moredhel]

I mean, it's hard to quantify knowledge in any case, but generally when people get jobs that are completely draining and repetitive, and maybe they're always in poor working conditions, they don't have their minds on learning or artistic pursuits (not impossible, but it's difficult).

I can not imagine that it is possible to do a draining repetitive job without doing something creative or learning something interesting in your free time. In the years I had such a job, times in wich I could not learn something new clearly made me suicidal.

[catbirds]

Then there are the people who do some ghastly mechanical slog of a job and at the end of the day write, sing or play amazing music - I have known a lot of those down the years. Plus we have a number of them among the volunteers for our community projects, who live for their volunteer work, which can be incredibly creative. Jobs that keep your family fed are not always the most inspiring things.

I can not imagine that it is possible to do a draining repetitive job without doing something creative or learning something interesting in your free time. In the years I had such a job, times in wich I could not learn something new clearly made me suicidal.

Yeah, that's why I say it varies. For me being creative and learning takes a lot of time and energy, but it's a far more rewarding type of fatigue. It's like a really good workout, whereas slogging through tiring work you don't care about is closer to the feeling of propping yourself above a pit of venomous snakes for a whole day.

Roisin, where you live, it might be that the culture allows for people to express themselves with music out loud. Unfortunately, here, that type of experience is much harder to find unless you're very involved in a cultural group, but people still try to get by. I did that kind of thing a little when I was 16 or 17, and it was a pretty neat experience even if you can still find embarrassing photos of me on the internet because of it

[Róisín]

In some parts of Australia the culture does allow for expression while working, in others not. I grew up in the Celtic farm culture, where people sing a lot while working, sometimes for maintaining the rhythm of a task, mostly just for pleasure. I learned many of my long traditional songs and stories while sitting around the kitchen table with my ancient rels doing the many, many long and boring tasks of a subsistence farm: skeining wool, slicing fruit for drying, shelling nuts, peas and beans for immediate use or for drying and storage, making bread and of course the endless task of feeding and supplying drink for a large multigenerational family plus farmhands. Bright and active minds need to talk, sing and tell stories while so occupied, or go mad. And I have found that logic applies on small non-mechanised farms all over the world, including country Australia.

Another context in which I encountered that sort of background cultural involvement was while working in factories. I did this as one of my many side jobs while doing my first science degree, since while I had an academic scholarship which covered fees, tuition, and most of my books I still needed to pay for food and any extracurricular texts I wanted, and I helped my grandparents to support the family and raise my younger siblings while they also cared for my crippled-veteran father. I could always find such work since I actively wanted to work night and evening shifts, which most people did not. Most of the people doing such shifts were migrant women, often speaking little or no English, and even while working flat out we had a good time.

My favourite such job was working nights on the production lines of an old cereal factory in Carlton, right next to the brewery and only a short walk from the university, the museum and state library, the Queen Victoria Market and my two favourite folk clubs.

Workers on the line would sing, talk, and playfully learn bits of one another’s languages, which is where I picked up the fragments of Greek, Italian and Turkish I have. It was very hard, dull and repetitive work, but the interactions kept our minds alive, and I at least learned a lot of useful things.

Nowadays, in a much gentler context, I hold a monthly come-all-ye music night at my house. The next one is going to be this coming Saturday, since South Australia has done so well at controlling Covid that we are now allowed up to 30 people at a private event. I don’t expect anything like that number, but it should still be fun.

And catbirds, it sounds as if you had fun, even if the result was ‘embarrassing’ photos.

[catbirds]

It's Thursday which means it's time for me to be alive on here again! Also your weekly ramble about aRTD.

  Discussion for the remainder of chapter 4!

I know we've veered significantly off the direct discussion of the comic, but I think it's fine, considering this conversation is worthwhile anyway and pretty relevant to the theme our discussion has taken on. That'd be the meaning of maturity, culture, and youth, I think. Also we've more or less reached a consensus that Hannu is kind of a brat and the story's thematically in shambles, even if I think the pacing and the structure make it at least an enjoyable read if you overlook all the offensive jokes.

And general warnings going into chapter 5:

Spoiler: show

Animal death (graphic), falling from tall places, head trauma

So, this last part was a very cool fight scene to me, and it had some genuinely interesting stakes. Unlike the last chapter, they were way more involved in actually defeating the beast, and the parts where their lives were at risk felt genuine. I still don't really enjoy the "motive" they gave the wood moose Hiisi, which is a bunch of woodland spirits just really have it out for humans, but still. I guess maybe Puppy-fox dreamt it up. (Also if I'm misunderstanding something, please let me know. I really don't know much about Finnish mythology)

Uhh... I forgot about the R-slur. But the rest of the ending was decent! But also going by the way Jouko or Mr. Moose puts it, doesn't this mean Hannu's concussion carries through to every subsequent dream world? Though I'm not sure if it's a concussion or something else, but Hannu definitely did get smacked pretty hard, and that probably means he got a pretty bad head injury. He must be made of steel, too, considering what he's been through. And I guess it's here where we establish once and for all that Hannu's just an awful guy! Just an awful guy, which... ok I guess.

I think Hannu's a little bit overpowered in this dream. It makes me really wonder what he's done as a child, especially with him knowing how to get out of the avanto, shoot crossbows, etc etc... But maybe he's just in his element, whatever. I've heard it's pretty common for children in small towns to go wandering into the woods for Fun. And other times, he's pretty vulnerable, which is strange because there sure is a lot of sympathy being put towards this guy who's just kinda awful and never reciprocates kindness (except when contractually obligated because of a little fox spirit). In that sense, I'm quite glad that this story is restricted to one village.

As a side note, I can't remember if I've said this before, but I'm totally okay with the idea of a character who's awful. It's just when they're treated with more kindness than someone who is just decent that I start feeling a sort of, uhhh, resentment.

BUT as usual, that's just me!

Bright and active minds need to talk, sing and tell stories while so occupied, or go mad. And I have found that logic applies on small non-mechanised farms all over the world, including country Australia.

Yeah, it was probably a much more relevant thing back when people had to do things by hand. I still sing to myself when I do work, or put on some music that I enjoy, and it helps a whole lot. But I guess there's no rhythm to farming with a tractor, maybe? Or no group element? IDK.

Workers on the line would sing, talk, and playfully learn bits of one another’s languages, which is where I picked up the fragments of Greek, Italian and Turkish I have. It was very hard, dull and repetitive work, but the interactions kept our minds alive, and I at least learned a lot of useful things.

Personally I think factory work in the past came with a whole slew of other issues, including the poor and kind of unregulated working conditions and overcrowded living quarters, but at least you had this. I kind of wish they still allowed that... Most factories I've been in were too noisy and workers stood too far apart to have reasonable conversations.

Also, I would probably have spent all my time biting my lip and worrying about whether I'll mess up. But again, just me!

Nowadays, in a much gentler context, I hold a monthly come-all-ye music night at my house. The next one is going to be this coming Saturday, since South Australia has done so well at controlling Covid that we are now allowed up to 30 people at a private event. I don’t expect anything like that number, but it should still be fun.

This sounds fun! If conditions don't worsen, hope it goes through, but if you do need to postpone it, well, the time will come eventually. I'd like to attend something like this. My friends are always too shy about singing in a group, which sucks because it's one of my favourite activities.

And catbirds, it sounds as if you had fun, even if the result was ‘embarrassing’ photos.

Aha, well, I also got a neat banner, a shirt, and some arthritis, but it was the most lively and passionate thing I've done in my life. Totally different from, say, painting. You lose yourself in a different way with music and dance.

[thorny]

And I guess it's here where we establish once and for all that Hannu's just an awful guy! Just an awful guy, which... ok I guess

I think what bothers me isn't just that he's an awful guy; but that his being awful doesn't seem to be any sort of plot point, or character development, or whatever. It reads more as if this is just what Minna, at least at the time, thought of as normal.

  I guess there's no rhythm to farming with a tractor, maybe? Or no group element? IDK.

Not generally a group element, though that depends on the work; but definitely a rhythm.

A more stretched out rhythm than for most handwork, but it's there. Dowwwwwwwwwwn the length of this field, lift equipment, turn with right brake, lower equipment, uuuuuuuuuuuuupp to the other end, lift equipment, turn with right brake, lower equipment, dowwwwwwwwwn again, till you've done the circuit, start the next one, repeat . . .

oh look there's the hawk! and a cat at the edge of the field, both hoping for mice --

And I tell myself stories while on the tractor, all the time. Or work out plans for the next year. Or think of what I should have said at the planning board meeting. Or occasionally think up a poem. Going in circles on a tractor can be very useful for getting one's head going at some types of thinking.

[Jitter]

I think what bothers me isn't just that he's an awful guy; but that his being awful doesn't seem to be any sort of plot point, or character development, or whatever. It reads more as if this is just what Minna, at least at the time, thought of as normal..

Yeah, he’s just terrible and nobody really seems to mind! I very much like Mr Kuikka here for telling Hannu off. I don’t approve of physical punishment, but I have to say I was all for it when Hannu got snapped by him on p 215.

The fight scenes are cool, and I like the design of the Moose of Hiisi too! In the real world, Hannu would have died in the avanto, even if he hadn’t already been concussed, but this is not the real world. The way he starts feeling good due to hypothermia is realistic, it eventually causes a sort of euphoria and the person just decides to take a nap in the snow, and never wakes up again.

Oh and moose can swim, and dive, they are very good swimmers and cross open expanses of lakes to get to islands. They also dive for water plants into depths of several meters.

[Róisín]

Jitter, hypothermia is indeed like that. I have certainly felt it, and only kept moving because I knew the guy running the climbing expedition I was helping out with was a thorough idiot and if I hadn’t kept moving the couple of newbie climbers with us would just have dropped behind and not been noticed, and anyway one of my kid cousins was up in front with the aforesaid idiot and I couldn’t leave him to try and sort the fellow’s decisions out on his own. But the pull of the cold is very seductive indeed.

And thorny, are you familiar with that beautiful Stan Rogers song ‘The Field Behind the Plow’? I think it catches the feeling you were talking about very well indeed.

My music night happened, though with only half a dozen people. We still had fun, lots of good music, talk and storytelling. I made a big pot of vegetable soup as well as roast beef fillet and baked vegetables, Dusty brought along his esky with icecream and berries (I don’t have a working freezer at present, so icecream is a rare treat for us). We had a good feast along with the music. I have so much missed being able to do this every month, and look forward to the end of the pandemic for this among many other reasons!

[catbirds]

Yeah, he’s just terrible and nobody really seems to mind! I very much like Mr Kuikka here for telling Hannu off. I don’t approve of physical punishment, but I have to say I was all for it when Hannu got snapped by him on p 215.

Me too. Personally I feel like everyone in this small town has a distinct selfishness or cruelty to them (with the exception of like, one or two characters I guess?), even if one can also make the argument that they DO care about each other, just in a different way. But they all seem so immature, though I've met children who are, you know, empathetic and all.

But Hannu's the worst of all. He doesn't even attempt to reciprocate any kindnesses and he's actually framed as manipulative and abusive (especially and even more so later, but spoilers etc...)

In most narratives, and I've heard it's well-portrayed in LOTR but I've read absolutely none of the books myself so I don't know, kindness is something that exists in most people, even if they do selfish things to survive or occasionally have a moment of weakness and do something cruel.

But in aRTD everyone's just kinda terrible and unhelpful!

I think what bothers me isn't just that he's an awful guy; but that his being awful doesn't seem to be any sort of plot point, or character development, or whatever. It reads more as if this is just what Minna, at least at the time, thought of as normal.

I kind of agree, even if I also want to think that Minna did not see everyone in such a spiteful and cruel way. Like, it feels kind of weird because Minna's still young and has years ahead of her in terms of art-making, but now that I see that this is how it started, eugh. I guess I can see the seeds of LP here, as much as I hate to admit it.

(And I half-intended to use this re-read as a chance to reflect on how Minna's work has influenced me and how I'd move forward personally, but I'm kind of just terrified now.)

The fight scenes are cool, and I like the design of the Moose of Hiisi too! In the real world, Hannu would have died in the avanto, even if he hadn’t already been concussed, but this is not the real world. The way he starts feeling good due to hypothermia is realistic, it eventually causes a sort of euphoria and the person just decides to take a nap in the snow, and never wakes up again.

Yeah, it's such an appropriate design for something that looks perfectly normal in the woods and completely terrifying at the same time.

I've heard that you can survive falling into freezing water if you wear something that keeps you afloat and warm, but Hannu isn't wearing that, clearly. But hypothermia, that's something I've never experienced. It's such a strange reaction in your brain for something that's sure to leave you dead? Comatose at least?

Oh and moose can swim, and dive, they are very good swimmers and cross open expanses of lakes to get to islands. They also dive for water plants into depths of several meters.

Yup, I've seen those pictures online! And I've always been very shocked. Apparently, one of the moose's main predators is orca whales, which confused many people on the internet because they didn't know moose could swim.

And I tell myself stories while on the tractor, all the time. Or work out plans for the next year. Or think of what I should have said at the planning board meeting. Or occasionally think up a poem. Going in circles on a tractor can be very useful for getting one's head going at some types of thinking.

Sounds relaxing if you're doing it on a nice day! I like the thought of seeing animals and nature as you work. Though I've always preferred picking and peeling fruits and beans by hand, since it feels just like the right amount of activity to me.

My music night happened, though with only half a dozen people. We still had fun, lots of good music, talk and storytelling. I made a big pot of vegetable soup as well as roast beef fillet and baked vegetables, Dusty brought along his esky with icecream and berries (I don’t have a working freezer at present, so icecream is a rare treat for us). We had a good feast along with the music. I have so much missed being able to do this every month, and look forward to the end of the pandemic for this among many other reasons!

That's awesome A lot of the time, hanging out with a small group is just as fun. How was the singing? Also, cool, apparently esky is an Australian thing. Hopefully more people come by soon, though it'll still be a bit of holding your breath with the virus!