Author Topic: (Re)reading The Silmarillion  (Read 12559 times)

Róisín

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2021, 06:11:04 AM »
Yeah, the all too popular political strategy of The Big Lie. Works far too often in our world.
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Jitter

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2021, 08:25:42 AM »
Sadly, it seems to work the better, when it’s pulling the strings of what is the worst in us :(
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RanVor

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2021, 05:18:01 PM »
That's because humans are easily controlled by their fears. Playing on those fears is therefore the easiest form of manipulation.

LuckyCheshire

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2021, 10:02:30 PM »
Ooh, interesting thread! I may need to catch up with the reading before making any contributions, I read The Silmarillion once but it's been a while :)  I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, so I have to throw in a reccomendation of 'Nightfall in Middle-Earth' by Blind Guardian to anyone who likes rock or metal. What more could you ask for than an entire album based on The Silmarillion? Sorry if I'm interrupting, I'll come back more on topic after I've read back through up to this point  :3
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RanVor

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2021, 03:56:57 AM »
I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, so I have to throw in a reccomendation of 'Nightfall in Middle-Earth' by Blind Guardian to anyone who likes rock or metal. What more could you ask for than an entire album based on The Silmarillion? :3
It's pretty great. One of their best albums, if not the best. I've been listening to it more lately.

There haven't been any songs relevant to the current chapters yet, but for next week, it would be Into the Storm and Nightfall, and maybe The Curse of Feanor. If it matters to somebody, that is.

Jitter

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2021, 06:02:34 AM »
Ooh, interesting thread! I may need to catch up with the reading before making any contributions, I read The Silmarillion once but it's been a while :)  I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, so I have to throw in a reccomendation of 'Nightfall in Middle-Earth' by Blind Guardian to anyone who likes rock or metal. What more could you ask for than an entire album based on The Silmarillion? Sorry if I'm interrupting, I'll come back more on topic after I've read back through up to this point  :3

You are not interrupting, LuckyCheshire! The music recommendation is 100% on topic.

As for the reading schedule, the idea is to limit spoilers for people who haven’t read it at all (o have forgotten most of it). I think everyone who is participating in the discussion at the moment has already read it, but as only a small proportion of forum members comment on anything, it is possible that there are others reading with us, even if they are not saying anything. So, I think we should stick to the “bookclub rules” we set up in the beginning.

Nevertheless I’m wondering whether the pace is a bit slow? How about we up the page count a bit? It depends also on the chapter lengths of course, but so far I tried to make it around 20 pages per week only.  This is a question for anyone, not Cheshire in particular :)
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Annuil

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2021, 09:35:17 PM »
Yaaay! “Nightfall in Middle Earth” is one of my favourite albums ever!  :headbang:
Yes, great music suggestion, very atmospheric, may be a little too “mentally” for some, but to my tastes it’s the most best!  :sigrun:
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Jitter

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2021, 02:17:02 PM »
Oh Noldor! I remember when I read this the first time, as more or less a kid, and to begin with I was oh yea, elves! And at Chapter 9, if not earlier, “WTF elves! Nooooo!” 😳😨😱 This is a horrible chapter.

And Fëanor and his house are horrible elves! Yes, I understand they were led astray by Melkor, but still! I hate him just as much as I did then, although now I perhaps feel more sorry for him too.

Practical question. In the beginning of the chapter it says something like (remember I have a translation) “and the valar were sitting in shadow, for it was night”, which is of course the case with the Trees just destroyed. But, when the noldor attack the teleri at the harbor to get the ships, it says ”swords were drawn at dawn”. What dawn? Everything was in darkness at this time, no?

For the same reason, how come they could see the dangerous ice in the Helcaraxë? It specifically says that the cold fog was not penetrated by stars. Elven eyes or not, how far can they possibly see in those conditions?

Also I had completely forgotten that Fëanor had the ships torched when Fingolfin’s people were still in the West. He’s even worse than I remembered.

Incidentally, this sort of thing seems very appropriate for a television series produced now. It seems to me all television is very bleak nowadays, and this will be brilliant source material for a series that makes sure the viewer doesn’t become joyful or feel-good!

I knew this was here and still I’m a bit upset. Noldor Y U do this?

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moredhel

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2021, 03:37:14 PM »
I wonder every time why the Noldor do this horrible things. People doing evil things for no reason is uncomfortably realistic. And we have an interesting insight in the I would call it Metaphysics of evil in this part of the Silmarillion. We have here a setting where becoming evil does not make you an servant of the dark lord. We do have here two types of evil heavily fighting each other.

tehta

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2021, 04:51:18 PM »
I too have many feelings about the Noldor, and especially the Feanorians. Note also Fëanor's weird colonialist little jab at the Teleri, "you would be living in shacks" and all that. Would that even be bad? i have long believed that the reason the Teleri used the jewels the Noldor gave them to decorate the beaches is that they had no other use for such items. If you dump them on a beach at least you don't have to dust them.

Oh, and oath! It's not 'we swear to recover our works' it's 'we swear to punish anyone who so much as touches our stuff'.

I can write more about this if desired.

But I don't see any mention of dawn in the description of the Kinslaying. What I have is

Thereupon Fëanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualondë, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him, and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate.

One interesting thing about this battle is that Tolkien spent some time trying to keep various Noldor out of it. One of the volumes HoME mentions that Fingon and Turgon did not take part (although the Silm implies otherwise re: Fingon) and other writings state that Galadriel did not participate (some even say she wasn't part of the Flight).
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RanVor

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2021, 04:55:46 PM »
Practical question. In the beginning of the chapter it says something like (remember I have a translation) “and the valar were sitting in shadow, for it was night”, which is of course the case with the Trees just destroyed. But, when the noldor attack the teleri at the harbor to get the ships, it says ”swords were drawn at dawn”. What dawn? Everything was in darkness at this time, no?

For the same reason, how come they could see the dangerous ice in the Helcaraxë? It specifically says that the cold fog was not penetrated by stars. Elven eyes or not, how far can they possibly see in those conditions?
I believe it's called "plot holes".

Also I had completely forgotten that Fëanor had the ships torched when Fingolfin’s people were still in the West. He’s even worse than I remembered.
Yeah, Fëanor went off the deep end pretty fast.

I believe this is a good moment to ask the question that's been on my mind for a while now: what exactly did Fëanor do wrong? I mean, he did plenty of wrong obviously, but which one of his decisions was the one that tipped the scales? I don't have a definite answer myself yet, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Since it's been brought up last week, here are the songs relevant to this chapter, and some of the previous chapter as well:

Into the Storm

Nightfall

The Curse of Feanor
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:58:56 PM by RanVor »

moredhel

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2021, 05:21:35 PM »

I believe this is a good moment to ask the question that's been on my mind for a while now: what exactly did Fëanor do wrong? I mean, he did plenty of wrong obviously, but which one of his decisions was the one that tipped the scales? I don't have a definite answer myself yet, but I'd like to hear what you think.

I think it was not one single decision. There were many actions together that made things go the wrong direction.

RanVor

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2021, 05:40:21 PM »
I think it was not one single decision. There were many actions together that made things go the wrong direction.
But surely there must have been that one step too far, right? The point of no return?

It's a very tricky question and that's precisely why I find it worth asking.

tehta

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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2021, 05:55:51 PM »
I think the wording of the Oath made tragedy inevitable. Was there anything before?
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Re: (Re)reading The Silmarillion
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2021, 06:10:33 PM »
Tehta, ok, the “dawn” was then a brainfart of the (generally very good) translator. It is exactly in the paragraph you quoted.

RanVor, it is an excellent question! I also don’t have a definite answer, but he was pretty far gone by the time they took the Oath. They wouldn’t have taken such an oath if they weren’t. One of the possible moments was when Fëanor refused to give up the Silmarils to return the light that was lost with the Trees. It’s a bit unclear o me whether the Silmarils would have been lost or consumed in the process, or just used to “seed” the light again. His refusal didn’t have immediate effect as the Silmarils were already stolen, but like the narrator points out, if he had at first agreed, many events that followed could have been different. That he would covet them so that he’d rather keep them than return light to all of the world, seems beyond mere selfishness.
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