(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[Jitter]

From tomorrow, chapters 3 and 4.

I have an emergency at work so I'm not sure I can join on Monday but I will during the week!

Do you still like the pace? 5 + 6 have about the same page count, as do 7+8, but then 9 would be on its own. Does this work?

[RanVor]

From tomorrow, chapters 3 and 4.

The elves journey to Valinor!

Do you still like the pace? 5 + 6 have about the same page count, as do 7+8, but then 9 would be on its own. Does this work?

It's fine for me.

[tehta]

I was waiting for someone else to start, because I don't feel like I have that much to say.

I find the story of the journey to Valinor a bit tedious, with all the splits between the different groups of Elves and their assorted names. It feels like an exam is coming at the end. Also, I feel more sympathetic than I perhaps should towards all the more chaotic subgroups of Elves who kept pausing whenever they saw something pretty, or wandering off, and forming subgroups which were later given less flattering names.

BTW, I used to wonder why Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë were chosen as the ambassadors, and how they relate to the original Elves who awoke (who were already divided into the three kindred we see later, and had a different, named, set of leaders). Well, the new Tolkien book (Nature of Middle-earth) says they were all 6th generation Elves, descended from the original leaders, and chosen for their personalities.

I really do like the part about Varda kindling the stars, both because it is very nice imagery, and because I like how Mandos says "we can't give the Elves any proper light sources, only the stars" and she reacts with "well, if they're to have only stars, I will make sure those stars are awesome".

I also like Melkor's propaganda campaign against Orome. Very clever.

The thing about how the Orcs are descendants of corrupted Elves is horrifying, but also spiritually confusing, and contradicted in other sources. See, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#In-fiction_origins

[moredhel]

Also, I feel more sympathetic than I perhaps should towards all the more chaotic subgroups of Elves who kept pausing whenever they saw something pretty, or wandering off, and forming subgroups which were later given less flattering names.

I feel sympathy for them too. Pretty things here compared to some sort of better place far away, I think I would have stayed for a while. Evene if the things in Valinor are better the pretty things right now are still pretty. And elves do not run out of time they can just go later.

This is something I was thinking a lot about. Do elves have a different concept of later? Because if a human says I will do it later you would expect something  like later the same day or in the next few days. But if two elves talk both of them thousands of years old, if one of them says later could it mean something like next century?

[RanVor]

That feeling when you're so in love you spend literal years just staring into the other person's eyes without eating, sleeping, etc. (No, I don't know that feeling, why do you ask?)

This is something I was thinking a lot about. Do elves have a different concept of later? Because if a human says I will do it later you would expect something  like later the same day or in the next few days. But if two elves talk both of them thousands of years old, if one of them says later could it mean something like next century?

That would make sense. Life is probably a lot less hectic for an elf than for a human.

Still not as bad as the ents, though.

[Jitter]

I have also thought many times that a character with a lifespan of thousands of years would be very hard to even imagine, let alone write in a convincing way. Would they mature further and further like many (nit all…) humans do with age? Is there a limit where they wouldn’t get any more mature? Do they start forgetting things when millenia of new things are collected every day? Would they live in strictly in the moment, or have a very long and patient view, or alternate between the two states? Or something else that we can’t even grasp? Maybe a very young elf could be able to communicate with humans, but wouldn’t a being with three thousand years of wisdom and nobleness be so alien to the human mind that real communication would be impossible? I’m not making statements, mind you, but wondering.

On a more practical level. Yavanna went to Middle Earth and put things to sleep to spare them from the darkness. What did the elves eat?

[Jitter]

BTW I updated the schedule on p 1 of this thread with 5+6, 7+8 and 9 for the upcoming weeks.

[Jitter]

Is anyone still reading?

Enter Fëanor, and many things with him. I find the eldar have too many children! If they don’t die, and everyone has three, four or seven children, there’s going to be elves everywhere! Perhaps it’s only their high and mighty who do this, but still.

Also women exist to be wives again. Shees. I know, written ages ago, but it still bothers me.

[tehta]

I'm happy to keep reading, but don't want to take over the discussion with my silly comments. (Such as that the story of the Elves heading to Valinor reminds me of college and trying to herd a friend group to a party, with people getting distracted, deciding to wait for their friends, then getting upset that they missed the bus, etc. The imagery of the floating island is nice though.)

But you are right, most Elves had far fewer children than those whacky Finwians. (I seem to remember that Feanor and Nerdanel's seven were unique.) I think part of that is that the parents' (and especially the mothers') strength and spirit went into each child, as we just saw with Miriel.

Another point that is not made exactly clear here is that Elves are supposed to have just one spouse (since they might meet again if reincarnated.) Finwe was given a special dispensation because Miriel promised never to be reborn.

[moredhel]

Is anyone still reading?

Yes but I am some chapters ahead. Makes it hard to discuss without spoilers.

Enter Fëanor, and many things with him. I find the eldar have too many children! If they don’t die, and everyone has three, four or seven children, there’s going to be elves everywhere! Perhaps it’s only their high and mighty who do this, but still.

Even if it is just one kid per couple every 1000 years exponential growth would kick in.

Also women exist to be wives again. Shees. I know, written ages ago, but it still bothers me.

Me too this it shows a mindset that in my opinon caused many bad things to individuals and society in general.

[Jitter]

Yes but I am some chapters ahead. Makes it hard to discuss without spoilers.

Maybe look back to where the schedule is, to remind yourself what to say and what not to?

[RanVor]

I look forward to discussing Fëanor after his story is concluded. He's one of the most interesting characters ever written by Tolkien.

[Annuil]

Yayayay I promised myself I will come here when the name of Fëanor is mentioned! :'D
One of my favorite characters of Tolkien, not that I like him, I admire him as a literary character, because he is the best plot-driver one can possibly find/come up with :'D
In any case, sorry for not being very active, I have way too much stuff to deal with right now.

[Jitter]

The current chapter Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of Noldor is rather topical, I’m afraid. A shadow presence is circulating rumors about how some people are not quite getting all they really deserve, and the people go for it and choose to believe the lies.

Hmmm, almost as if I’d heard something similar elsewhere.

[moredhel]

If a lie is repeated over and over again more and more people will believe it.