(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[tehta]

Yes, it's your basic mythology guide.

I suppose one could discuss whether any major mythological roles/portfolios are not covered? (Um, god of art or music? Unless one thinks that the water/music connection puts music in Ulmo's portfolio? God of alcohol (humans seem to enjoy having those)?)

Here are a few things I find interesting:

* Right. The connection between water and music. I think that comes up a few times in other places.

* Some of the Valar are siblings. How?

* We learn Melian's and Gandalf's educational backgrounds! (He was a Maia associated with Lorien and Nienna -- not sure I would have guessed those two off-hand! He seems too proactive. But I guess his ability to spread hope clearly comes from those two.)

* The fact that Melkor was kind of a parodist: "Melkor spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others..." This is something parody fanfic writers must beware of! By which I mean me. (But I suppose loving mockery, which I aim for, is a different matter.)

* Tulkas... Oh, Tulkas: "He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend." He sounds like he'd enjoy a drink.

[Jitter]

Yeah, given the importance of music and poetry in Tolkien’s world, starting with the very music of creation, it is a surprise there is no god of music. Also no one for childbirth or harvest although Yavanna probably governs the latter. And who keeps the terrestrial animals? Fish and aquatic animals are Ulmo’s, birds are Manwë’s but who takes care of mammals?

I also wondered about the siblings and the fact that most of the Valar are married or “together with” another but none have children. This is very different from, say, the Norse or Greek pantheons Zeus and Odin have offspring all over the place, both in their godly domains and among (and born of) humans. We do however know that it is possible for at least some ainur to procreate (more on that later). But, what makes some of them siblings? And Vána is even the younger sister of Yavanna.

Furthermore I strongly appreciate the fact that two of them remain unmarried, there is even a goddess who doesn’t have a spouse while most others do! Unexpected but great.

[tehta]

I have been thinking Yavanna for harvest and for childbirth too ('giver of fruits'). And maybe Orome for at least some animals?

[Jitter]

Yes, Orome (don’t have the dots for an e now) for hounds etc but not all animals. Who protects the squirrels??

[thegreyarea]

Sorry! I'm late! But if you don't mind I'd love to join this amazing trip on Tolkien's fantastic creation! I love the Silmarillion, and already read it twice (in Portuguese, BTW), and will always be willing to take another turn on that carousel.

I'm also sorry for not being around on the first part, that instantly made me fall in love with the book. The music of creation... Ah! I've read many creation myths, but this is probably the most beautiful one.

I'm not at home today, or tomorrow, and I don't want to comment using just my memory, so I'll have to wait until thursday to reread that chapter and be able to say more.

Hugs!

[RanVor]

* Some of the Valar are siblings. How?

Because. Technically they should all be brothers and sisters, being all born from Ilúvatar's thoughts. Maybe Eru imagined them as such?

Spoiler: show

It occurred to me today that Curunír (a.k.a. Saruman) was one of Aulë's Maiar as well. Aulë seems to have something of a problem with his servants turning to the dark side.

I'm not at home today, or tomorrow, and I don't want to comment using just my memory, so I'll have to wait until thursday to reread that chapter and be able to say more.

Hugs!

It's alright, we'll be waiting for you!

[moredhel]

Yeah, given the importance of music and poetry in Tolkien’s world, starting with the very music of creation, it is a surprise there is no god of music.

In my opinion it is logical not to have a god for music. They are responsible for arts of the world. But music was there before the world and created the world. So I think for the gods inside the world it is impossible to be mthe god of music. The gods in the world have some sort of control over the thing they are responsible for. The only gods ever showing some sort of control over music where Ilúvatar and Melkor.

One interesting thing we learn is that at least Maiar can change their minds e. g. about Melkor. That means we know that Time is relevant for them too.

[Jitter]

Hey! You guys keeping up? Chapters 1 and 2!

Are you happy with the pace by the way?

So anyways, we were just talking about there not being a god of poetry, but apparently Manwë is that. Or at least he gave poetry and song to the vanyar.

What do you think about the dwarves? Where will they go at their death?

[RanVor]

Aulë creates the dwarves, Ilúvatar: Eh, that's fine.
Melkor tries to create anything, Ilúvatar: HOW DARE YOU

Dwarves probably go back into the earth they were made of.

Spoiler: show

Or to Valinor with their elf best buddies...

My favorite part of those two chapters were the lamps. Something that existed and passed away before any mortal being could witness it, feels very mythical.

Aren't elves introduced in chapter 3? (EDIT: Nevermind, double-checked and it's there in chapter 1.)

[tehta]

Eep! i read only Chapter One, which I find a bit boring (and I guess that is why I forgot the Manwë-poetry connection).

I do enjoy Chapter Two, though, what with the marital squabbling (flirting?) between Yavanna and Aulë, and the "nonetheless they will have need of wood'.
I am a bit confused by the seven FATHERS of the Dwarves, however.

Spoiler: show

(And I am not sure how people feel about self-recs here, but I once tried to resolve this particular problem with a triple-drabble.)

Also, to add to RanVor's collection:

Yavanna: By the way, remember that time I sang that I wanted trees to have souls, and you didn't say no?
Ilúvatar: Yes, yes, I totally remember, no problem.

[RanVor]

I am a bit confused by the seven FATHERS of the Dwarves, however.

Spoiler: show

(And I am not sure how people feel about self-recs here, but I once tried to resolve this particular problem with a triple-drabble.)

This is hilarious. Thank you.

[moredhel]

Aulë creates the dwarves, Ilúvatar: Eh, that's fine.

We are againt at the point of Aule and his scolars have a tendency to turn to the dark side. But I think this is natural for the god of crafts and technology. Inventions often try to replace and invalidate the old ways. And of course the wish to create something greater than everything made before.

And we are at one of the points where the world is completely changed. And it is done by an unique act of creation.

[Jitter]

If we go with the “dwarven females are indistinguishable from males” theory, the seven “Fathers” could have any combination of types of genitalia (as long as it’s a combination).

I happen to strongly support this theory! I especially enjoy it in Discworld.

Also I liked your story, tehta

[Jitter]

My favorite part of those two chapters were the lamps. Something that existed and passed away before any mortal being could witness it, feels very mythical.

I have the book A Tolkien Bestiary by David Day, and have had it for decades. It has a number of full color illustrations (remember, decades means long predates internet with graphics), one of which is of the destruction of the Lamps. It’s very impressive but also sad, and maybe the reason why I have had the image in my head that the Age of the Lamps was kind of meh. But now the description of the Spring of Arda makes them seem much nicer

[tehta]

Also, regarding the fate of the Dwarves: I suppose you were asking which of the three legends we find most plausible?

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dum.

I think the Elves are just being snobby about other races as usual. I don't buy it.
The legend of the Dwarves, about a special section of the Halls of Mandos, seems plausible.
But the reincarnation theory is the most fun.