The Great Purge

[catbirds]

(And fourth, we could discuss endlessly about what is or isn't supposedly permissible in the "no explicit agreement" default case, if the differences between the limits of "fair use" in U.S. and German copyright are any indication.)

Art on the internet operates on a little bit of an honour system in that there are probably millions of instances of sharing art that don't explicitly break copyright law/fair use, but are generally considered uhhh not right because it takes exposure away from the artist and might not give due credit, or they just want control over their art like Songbird said, or any other one of like 500 other possible reasons. It's more for smaller artists, though. I'm not sure where Minna's artwork fits in on this, but like I said, especially once an artist gets bigger distribution/archiving outside of their control or knowledge is pretty much guaranteed.

At the end of the day, it comes down to respecting Minna's wishes if we find a way to get her to clarify her stance on archiving CoH-related artwork. Without that, I don't think we can make a totally fair judgement.

[Róisín]

Other than writing fanfic for Minna’s work I have never published stuff online, but have fairly lengthy experience of doing so in anthologies, newspapers and magazines as well as recording some of my work or permitting others to record it, or using or allowing it to be used in radio programmes. I don’t at all mind walking into an Outback pub or a folk festival session and hearing my stuff being sung or recited by people who think of it as traditional and don’t know who made it. Indeed, I feel honoured when that happens. It’s all part of the Folk Process!

And I have happily donated work to the Street Poets project (a group who recite poetry or hand out printed sheets of poetry to passers-by in the streets because they believe that knowledge and appreciation of poetry is a part of our culture that is being lost and is worth preserving). I am willing to do that because I know that the guy who started the project did so out of his meagre salary as a schoolteacher, and that it largely ran on donations. Nobody made money out of other people’s work.

However, I successfully sued the fellow who was selling my work and that of several other poets collected and reprinted as being all his own work. I and several of the others were able to produce copies of where the work had been printed in magazines, anthologies or newspapers, at much earlier dates than his collections. That sort of thing where somebody takes the work without permission and uses it and sells it as their own is just not on. But I do think that writing fanfic for something is okay so long as the author is acknowledged, and that the author has the right to at least express an opinion and object strongly if somebody steals their work and sells it as their own.

But I don’t think that is what the Wayback Machine is doing at all? More like preserving the material for purposes of review or archiving and keeping the material from being lost?

[Sc0ut]

That said, I think being an Artist On The Internet does require you to just. lay down your fear and accept that there will be things floating around outside of your control.

True. But knowing other people do unethical or dubiously ethical things with people's art online shouldn't make you feel better about doing it yourself. That's like saying "well, when people get into a car they're aware they might get into an accident, so I might as well drive recklessly, they're aware of what they're getting into".

As much as I am vocal about my disapproval of some of Minna's views and actions, I am firmly against using that to justify disregarding any of her rights to her own work. The moral thing to do here is to ask what her preference is in terms of her CoH work being hosted elsewhere for people to enjoy, and then respect her wishes. We can talk till the cows come home about grey areas and "maybe she's okay with it anyway" but all of that is just rationalisation of sketchy behaviour.

[thegreyarea]

ScOut, I agree with you. Someone should ask her, and the right thing is to respect her option.
However she had all the opportunities to express that option, and did not use it. She could post on hummingfluff, prior or simultaneously to her new message, what is her opinion. Or somewhere else. So far all we know is that she cancelled the project and decided to pull it out of her page. It's reasonable to interpret her attitude as "I don't care".
There's also context. Sharing one pic is different to share the whole archive. And how it's done is also important. Someone posting her work without permission on a Deviantart page would be wrong, no doubt. Having a link inside a Forum that, as she's well aware, used to discuss that work, as a kind of memorial, I don't think is wrong, unless she specifically says so.
We are "inside" a space dedicated to discuss that work, not "in the open" on a place with thousands of visitors per hour. It's not the same.
So my understanding is that, unless she says otherwise, it's not morally wrong to have that kind of respectful and somewhat restricted sharing among us.

[catbirds]

As much as I am vocal about my disapproval of some of Minna's views and actions, I am firmly against using that to justify disregarding any of her rights to her own work. The moral thing to do here is to ask what her preference is in terms of her CoH work being hosted elsewhere for people to enjoy, and then respect her wishes. We can talk till the cows come home about grey areas and "maybe she's okay with it anyway" but all of that is just rationalisation of sketchy behaviour.

Yeah, I can feel a shrivelled core of spite somewhere in my emotions, but still, as someone who did do art on the internet in two different periods, I feel like we need to ask her. A deliberate act of archiving is greatly different from sending a picture to a friend on tumblr or discord and causing it to be permanently up on that site. Grey, IMO just because someone hasn't said something doesn't mean they do not have a stance on it. A lot of people do not put their own thoughts and feelings on the internet all the time, and her act of deleting her entire website could be interpreted as any number of things.

I'll hop in and ask on the stream tomorrow (bleh). Afaik that's the most direct way to ask her, as she might not be replying to comments even though LP discussions have calmed down in the SSSS comments.

[thegreyarea]

Grey, IMO just because someone hasn't said something doesn't mean they do not have a stance on it. A lot of people do not put their own thoughts and feelings on the internet all the time, and her act of deleting her entire website could be interpreted as any number of things.

I'll hop in and ask on the stream tomorrow (bleh). Afaik that's the most direct way to ask her, as she might not be replying to comments even though LP discussions have calmed down in the SSSS comments.

Well, I did not say that she doesn't have a stance. As a matter of fact I said quite the opposite, that we should respect her wishes about her work.
As you said, her acts may be interpreted in different ways. Since she's not, at all, a beginner in sharing her work in the Net, I think it's reasonable to interpret her silence (so far) as "I don't care". That can change if someone tries to put her work on display somewhere else. However I believe that none of us is going to do anything like that.
I hope that you manage to get some clarification from her on that. I may even show up there if I have time (Saturdays are always busy days to me).

[catbirds]

Okay, uhh, I'm a bit confused but I think the important part is we're all more or less in agreement with asking her for permission? Outside of what's going on on Wayback Machine, clearly that's a different thing and I'm pretty sure most of the archiving isn't done manually by employees anyway (crawlers? user input? otherwise automated? idk). That feels like more of a preservation thing, which relates more to how history and the internet should go. However, if Minna does decide to interfere with that and erase her pages from there somehow, then there's not much we can do about it and it's totally her choice to do that.

Also Sc0ut, I already replied to your post earlier but just to clarify: Sorry, in retrospect, I don't think that was a Take that I should've added because it can be read as trying to defend sketchy/dubious behaviour in the context of Minna's CoH work and this thread. It's more to say that there will definitely still be bits of CoH art/other records lying around somewhere, not to justify our archiving of it, but I wrote it pretty badly.

Well, anyway, I guess all that's left is to ask her.

[Jitter]

It’s great if you can get to the stream and ask! I don’t think I can make the stream tonight, and definitely not all of it.

While you are at it, if it seems possible maybe also ask whether she intends to do something with the material still. I think she said earlier she was thinking of releasing the (small) story she had in some way.

Also I see you’ll be a citizen soon (again?). Rest assured there will be cake.

[catbirds]

Huffs, okay, apparently the CoH devlog still exists somewhere but Minna just hasn't linked to it. It's under some other URL in the same domain??? http://www.hummingfluff.com/devlogindex.php is where it is now. No clear answer on fan archiving otherwise, but it seems we were worried about the wrong thing. The URL would've been pretty hard to guess though

Jitter, as for the story summary, she said "most likely," so that's something you should look forward to maybe. Buuuut also she says if she gets too tired out by it then she won't, but that's up to her. Apparently, kitty would've been a cyborg cat that picks up random items or something, that's all I picked up from the stream.

I'll stay in the stream for a bit more in case she says anything else.

(and no, I never made it into the safe-zone on my last account, lol Can't wait to make it at last)

[thegreyarea]

Huffs, okay, apparently the CoH devlog still exists somewhere but Minna just hasn't linked to it. It's under some other URL in the same domain??? http://www.hummingfluff.com/devlogindex.php is where it is now. No clear answer on fan archiving otherwise, but it seems we were worried about the wrong thing. The URL would've been pretty hard to guess though

Thanks for going there to ask, catbirds! So this was not so much "The Great Purge" but rather "The Great Hide". It's good to know that she didn't delete all that excellent work.

Jitter, as for the story summary, she said "most likely," so that's something you should look forward to maybe. Buuuut also she says if she gets too tired out by it then she won't, but that's up to her. Apparently, kitty would've been a cyborg cat that picks up random items or something, that's all I picked up from the stream.

Ok, let's hope she doesn't get tired, and it's good that she's (more or less) willing to properly wrap all that, even seeing the game now as something that doesn't worth her time.

(and no, I never made it into the safe-zone on my last account, lol Can't wait to make it at last)

You deserve a party! There will be cake and squirrel cookies!

[catbirds]

Thanks for going there to ask, catbirds! So this was not so much "The Great Purge" but rather "The Great Hide". It's good to know that she didn't delete all that excellent work.

Whoops, I forgot to add: she says she just "wasn't sure where to link it" or something along those lines, so not so much a Great Hide but more like a doorway ending up inaccessible because of renovations. Some speculation would be required, but I think at one point or another the www.hummingfluff.com site will become more of the central hub for her current and future work. I mean, relative to her other site design examples, the homepage's current state does seem somewhat taped together.

EDIT: ALSO the url might change at some point in the future, she seems to be in the process of moving things around.

You deserve a party! There will be cake and squirrel cookies!

A big thank you! I'm pawing at the stash as we speak...

[Jitter]

You can practically taste the treats already!



And thanks for the intel!

[Róisín]

Minna did say, much further back, and again when people were talking to her about fanfic in general and the Mature thread on the Forum in especial, that we could do what we liked and she didn’t care. But that was specifically about fanart and fanfic.

[horriblelurker]

Did the CoH project ever get to the point of a functional demo? I also wonder if Minna would release the existing unity project as unfinished as it is for others to work on?

[JoB]

Did the CoH project ever get to the point of a functional demo?

Minna released exactly one version of the game, and that was back in 2017 - at roughly 1/4 of the timeframe during which she worked on it, so it's rather far from what she did get to. Last I checked, you could still download it from the announcement page, and I can vouch that you can get it to run even under a fairly old (even back then) version of WINE.

(IIRC you had to manually create an empty file into which the savestates would go before it would run properly; watch the error messages in the logfile to see where exactly.)

I also wonder if Minna would release the existing unity project as unfinished as it is for others to work on?

Dunno ... I wouldn't bet on it, though ...