Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'

[Sc0ut]

Hm, I always imagined that trypophobia has more to do with parasitic diseases. I'm not trypophobic myself, but there are example images the trigger a nauseating response, and the basic thought is: "EEEEW PARASITES!"

That is my theory as well. I'll refrain from detailing for the sake of Jitter and also to let the thread stay on topic 

[Maple]

For one thing, those who first came to it didn't get even that beforehand; that description didn't go up for, IIRC, a couple of days.

And even more to the point: not only is it an almost throwaway mention, but it's entirely misleading, because its mention that one lead character is Christian strongly implies that other lead characters aren't, and therefore implies that the comic's viewpoint characters are intentionally religiously diverse. There's no way that I, at least, would have taken the description Minna put up there as meaning 'this is a comic written solely from and about a Christian viewpoint'.

ETA: and, about the spoiler/warning business: yes, that's an issue, especially if warnings aren't done well. But just as an X-rating on a movie doesn't tell you who's going to have sex with whom or exactly how, a content warning doesn't have to give details about who dies, or who converts to what, or whichever. And people reading detective stories know just from the fact that they're in that genre that at least one person very likely dies in them; which doesn't, generally, seem to ruin the suspense -- sometimes it increases it.

That's an interesting point too. By just posting the genre of the comic (Christian...something. Christian modern fiction with bunnies?) that in of itself would have been enough to tell those who don't want to read Christian stuff "hey, this is a Christian story." And that's a really basic thing! Like, usually the first descriptor you use for a story is its genre. "Harry Potter is a magical fantasy story set at a modern day boarding school for wizards and witches." "Star Wars is a science fiction series about a young man learning to become a skilled fighter so he can save the galaxy." That kind of thing. We don't even see those as content warnings, they're just a description of the story to help people find something they might like. Someone in to historical fiction isn't going to look at Star Wars and say "boy I want to watch that!"

Likewise, try this: "Lovely People is a Christian story about faith, love, and family bonds as three young women face the tough choice of 'follow the crowd' or 'stand up for what they believe in'." Boom, summary right there that doesn't spoil the story and still tells you what you need to know. People who don't want to read Christian stories know to avoid it, people who like Christian stories (or who like more personalized stories about individuals struggling to do what they feel is right) will know to dive right in and read it.

Leaving it out purely as a 'gotcha' to trick people into reading it is kind of rude. And I wish Minna would be more open to crit because I think she would benefit from reading this talk on nuance here.

[Raaffiie]

More discussion about genre/content warnings

Spoiler: show

ETA: and, about the spoiler/warning business: yes, that's an issue, especially if warnings aren't done well. But just as an X-rating on a movie doesn't tell you who's going to have sex with whom or exactly how, a content warning doesn't have to give details about who dies, or who converts to what, or whichever. And people reading detective stories know just from the fact that they're in that genre that at least one person very likely dies in them; which doesn't, generally, seem to ruin the suspense -- sometimes it increases it.

Likewise, try this: "Lovely People is a Christian story about faith, love, and family bonds as three young women face the tough choice of 'follow the crowd' or 'stand up for what they believe in'." Boom, summary right there that doesn't spoil the story and still tells you what you need to know. People who don't want to read Christian stories know to avoid it, people who like Christian stories (or who like more personalized stories about individuals struggling to do what they feel is right) will know to dive right in and read it.

Exactly! The genre itself - a detective novel, a war novel, a horror story, a Christian story - already does so much work in telling people what to expect. Even in the case of genre-subversive works, I don't think there's much harm in making it clear that that is what it is, without saying anything about how the genre is subverted. At the end of the day, those people who like it are still going to be the people who like genre subversion to begin with, not the people who were genuinely looking for a cute slice-of-life and found a horror story instead. Mislabelling of the genre to lure in those additional people just comes across as ill intent.

Off-off-topic: Then there's Stephen King, whose idea of tension is 'He was such a lively person nobody would've guessed he'd be dead in three weeks.' Man, shut up!  :'D

I have never read Stephen King, and I've never known whether I would love or hate his writing. After this quote, I still don't :'D

[Haiz]

I do rather like the suggestion made by somebody earlier in this thread, at least for online works: 'click here if you want to get content warnings'. People who really absolutely hate spoilers can just not click.

t'was i! *does a hair flip*
as far as i can tell, it's already a pretty common thing to do, like gigi digi did for her comic "lady of the shard". i don't even read that much fanfic but i admire the content warning culture on ao3 - sometimes people will write "look at end notes for specific warnings" in the front notes of a chapter, in addition to all the tagging systems in place.

i also agree that vague warnings are often less than helpful, sometimes even misleading. the worst offender i can think of was a show that started with a very clear warning of "this episode portrays struggles with mental health" which, to me, can mean things like OCD symptoms, anxiety attacks, dissociation, and so on. turns out the episode portrayed a character committing suicide, which i did not see coming at ALL. it left me kinda dazed, like "oh so that's what they meant..."
it's okay to be specific, jeez!

(though i still think "this blog does not tag triggers" is a very fair thing to have on a personal tumblr blog, for example. if you're writing professional articles intended to be read by a wide audience, that's another thing.)



re: clarifying the genre of lovely people, i think that could help a lot, but i also think there's a disconnect here - namely that a lot of the contents that really upset people are things the author do not see as Upsetting Things. again, this could be my religious illiteracy and almost no experience with christian media, but i wouldn't have expected a christian story about standing for what you believe in to belittle my identity and throw me under the bus, y'know? it's like, trying to explain to a conservative transphobe why misgendering me is hurtful, but to them *i'm* acting hurtful for wanting them to restrict their precious freedom of speech. or asking a youtuber who posts a public meltdown to put in warnings with timestamps.

like... we are trying to figure out how a story that is actively mocking the concept of trigger warnings can be best labeled by the author who is doing the mocking. i think it's more fruitful to think of what the community can do to accomodate members, than trying to change the mind of someone who doesn't want to listen.

[Raaffiie]

Haiz, you're absolutely right in that the discussions about content warnings/genre and trigger warnings are two different discussions, and that the discussion about trigger warnings in the community is the more relevant one here. I've added another spoiler to my post in order to keep the thread on-topic.

[Haiz]

Haiz, you're absolutely right in that the discussions about content warnings/genre and trigger warnings are two different discussions, and that the discussion about trigger warnings in the community is the more relevant one here. I've added another spoiler to my post in order to keep the thread on-topic.

hey, i think it's a cool and useful discussion! i'm not trying to backseat mod anything. a lot of the discussions here cover topics like creator/audience relationships, portrayals of religion, seeking community and validation. it's why i keep coming back.

just wanted to throw in another two cents about remembering what is within our control and what isn't. take some stock of the boundaries present. it's interesting to see what we could've done if WE had been the ones to write lovely people, what would have been the most thoughtful and compassionate way to present this comic or its topics... but if we are already on that track of thinking, we wouldn't write lovely people at all.

[Raaffiie]

hey, i think it's a cool and useful discussion! i'm not trying to backseat mod anything. a lot of the discussions here cover topics like creator/audience relationships, portrayals of religion, seeking community and validation. it's why i keep coming back.

It's cool, I didn't feel like you were . I think both discussions are worth having, but I also think it's important to keep one topic from eclipsing another, especially in a linear forum format like this.

EDIT: And to say one more thing about the topics at hand: I don't think an accurate genre description alone would have prevented people from being hurt by the comic, and it wouldn't change what the afterword conveyed. It would have shown good will, though, which I think gives some more insight into this whole mess of a situation. But yeah, in terms of actually accommodating future readers, I don't think there's much we can do except make an effort ourselves to make this forum a welcoming place.

[Umbral Reaver]

I think a method that would work (for anything, not just this), would be to have a couple of levels of content warnings that can be opened.

Such as:

 (This work has content warnings - click here to view them)

And if you do, it opens a box with something like:

(Content warning for Politics, Religion - click here for detailed warnings)

As before, at any point you can skip to the work itself. But if you want, you can open up the second box for specifics.

[viola]

I think a method that would work (for anything, not just this), would be to have a couple of levels of content warnings that can be opened.

Such as:

 (This work has content warnings - click here to view them)

And if you do, it opens a box with something like:

(Content warning for Politics, Religion - click here for detailed warnings)

As before, at any point you can skip to the work itself. But if you want, you can open up the second box for specifics.

Imdb has something like this. They have a "parents guide" section and you can see by section the content warnings, and then they have major spoilers hidden within that section, so you can futher choose to see those as well. It says "parents" but it works well for anyone. I've used it to check for horribly graphic injuries so I don't have to look when they happen.

They don't have a specific section for religion/politics but they do have "frightening and intense scenes" where they sometimes put contraversial stuff. It's not everything but it's pretty comprehensive and gets most of the big stuff.

Here is the page for Endgame if you want to check it out.

[Umbral Reaver]

Here is the page for Endgame if you want to check it out.

Broken link.

[Miragia]

just wanted to throw in another two cents about remembering what is within our control and what isn't. take some stock of the boundaries present. it's interesting to see what we could've done if WE had been the ones to write lovely people, what would have been the most thoughtful and compassionate way to present this comic or its topics... but if we are already on that track of thinking, we wouldn't write lovely people at all.

Well, I'm finding the topic useful. Since I'm writing a story of my own that includes some Christian elements, it's nice to know various means by which people who don't enjoy that think hurtful situations can be avoided. Even if I don't plan on publishing it since I don't write for an audience as much as for the story's own sake, and this story and its characters don't care about being known. But just in case I ever change my mind and do let it out into the world, the perspectives given here are good knowledge to have. ^^

I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?



Unrelated rant about myself below, includes mention of God.

Spoiler: show

I went back to stalking the thread in silence for a while since I didn't want to contribute to it getting off track, and because it honestly is too much for me. I'm probably going to regret writing yet another reply in spite of knowing that I've had enough, but since I've been taking a long hard look at myself, I just wanted to say once more that I'm sorry. It is hard to feel sorry for what you do not understand. And until yesterday, I did not understand. Not fully. When people gave me upset responses I understood that I had hurt them somehow. When it was explained to me I understood why. I was sorry and I am. But the truth is that wasn't enough. God has taught me the full extent of my mistake now, and so I must say that I am not only disappointed with myself, I am disgusted. Clearly I just wasn't made to interact with humans. That does make me a little sad, since I think humans are amazing. To be clear, though, I still don't regret my initial intent. The way I voiced it was wrong, but what I wanted to say is: Whether you believe in God or not does not change your value as humans. It is hard for me to see why God would be so stern with me about my mistake if you weren't important to him, anyhow. Thank you, everyone, for a valuable life lesson, and please forgive me.

[Haiz]

Well, I'm finding the topic useful. Since I'm writing a story of my own that includes some Christian elements, it's nice to know various means by which people who don't enjoy that think hurtful situations can be avoided. Even if I don't plan on publishing it since I don't write for an audience as much as for the story's own sake, and this story and its characters don't care about being known. But just in case I ever change my mind and do let it out into the world, the perspectives given here are good knowledge to have. ^^

I am considering to ask for advice about other topics that are tricky to deal with, but this thread might not be the place for that... Still, can I ask if somewhere in this forum would be a good place to do so, or would bringing up difficult questions just make people upset...?



Unrelated rant about myself below, includes mention of God.

Spoiler: show

I went back to stalking the thread in silence for a while since I didn't want to contribute to it getting off track, and because it honestly is too much for me. I'm probably going to regret writing yet another reply in spite of knowing that I've had enough, but since I've been taking a long hard look at myself, I just wanted to say once more that I'm sorry. It is hard to feel sorry for what you do not understand. And until yesterday, I did not understand. Not fully. When people gave me upset responses I understood that I had hurt them somehow. When it was explained to me I understood why. I was sorry and I am. But the truth is that wasn't enough. God has taught me the full extent of my mistake now, and so I must say that I am not only disappointed with myself, I am disgusted. Clearly I just wasn't made to interact with humans. That does make me a little sad, since I think humans are amazing. To be clear, though, I still don't regret my initial intent. The way I voiced it was wrong, but what I wanted to say is: Whether you believe in God or not does not change your value as humans. It is hard for me to see why God would be so stern with me about my mistake if you weren't important to him, anyhow. Thank you, everyone, for a valuable life lesson, and please forgive me.

what i meant by that quote you're quoting, is this: if you want to write a sincere story with christian themes that actually empower people, where you as an author actually care about your audience and their wellbeing, you would end up writing a different story than lovely people. you would probably write something less shallow than "phones bad god good" and  probably wouldn't make fun of trigger warnings or people medicating for mental illnesses. at least i think so. i don't think stories with religious themes have to be like that.

i was genuinely surprised to find out brandon sanderson, author of the stormlight archive, was mormon - just from the way he writes people with many different approaches to religion and faith, even solid discussions about atheism. i love this series, and the religious diversity and focus is actually one of the reasons why. it feels real and refreshing and like an important part of the characters.

as a reply to the spoilered part:

Spoiler: show

 
i think the forum has a comfort corner AND religion threads that are good places to discuss these topics.

i'm not a therapist or anything, but i think self-forgiveness and a desire to do better is a good place to start. you are clearly a person who wants to listen and do good and contribute well to a community, and i want to repeat what i've said earlier: messing up is human and normal. we learn to do better by keep doing. owning up to your own humanity is an amazing tool for your personal growth. piling all that guilt and self-disgust upon yourself isn't actually helping - i get that it feels awful, but it can easily become another way of hiding from accountability. if someone takes it too far, it can become a way to make others to apologize to *you* and try to make *you* feel better instead of the other way. i don't think that's what you're doing, but it's good to keep in mind!

you're okay. you're trying and there's nothing more powerful than that.

[JoB]

Broken link.

Unb0rken by guesswork

[Umbral Reaver]

Unb0rken by guesswork

Thank you.

[Miragia]

what i meant by that quote you're quoting, is this: if you want to write a sincere story with christian themes that actually empower people, where you as an author actually care about your audience and their wellbeing, you would end up writing a different story than lovely people. you would probably write something less shallow than "phones bad god good" and  probably wouldn't make fun of trigger warnings or people medicating for mental illnesses. at least i think so. i don't think stories with religious themes have to be like that.

i was genuinely surprised to find out brandon sanderson, author of the stormlight archive, was mormon - just from the way he writes people with many different approaches to religion and faith, even solid discussions about atheism. i love this series, and the religious diversity and focus is actually one of the reasons why. it feels real and refreshing and like an important part of the characters.

as a reply to the spoilered part:

Spoiler: show

 
i think the forum has a comfort corner AND religion threads that are good places to discuss these topics.

i'm not a therapist or anything, but i think self-forgiveness and a desire to do better is a good place to start. you are clearly a person who wants to listen and do good and contribute well to a community, and i want to repeat what i've said earlier: messing up is human and normal. we learn to do better by keep doing. owning up to your own humanity is an amazing tool for your personal growth. piling all that guilt and self-disgust upon yourself isn't actually helping - i get that it feels awful, but it can easily become another way of hiding from accountability. if someone takes it too far, it can become a way to make others to apologize to *you* and try to make *you* feel better instead of the other way. i don't think that's what you're doing, but it's good to keep in mind!

you're okay. you're trying and there's nothing more powerful than that.

Ah, sorry. I know what you meant, just wanted to add that I think talking about how you would improve Lovely People, even if it is a moot point in itself, could still be useful. At least to me it is, since it brings up perspectives and solutions that are new to me. ^^

Writing a series with so many perspectives must have taken a tremendous amount of research and great insight into the human mind. That's really impressive~


Answer below to what looks like concerns about my mental health, contains lots of Christian thoughts.

Spoiler: show

So, um, please don't worry about my mental health? ^^' The only thing about this situation that has a real negative impact on it is the fact that I'm being social enough to respond in this thread. That's on me and I'll recover from it eventually, even if I complain about it.

I know that it sounds weird, but in spite of being Christian I can call myself a serpent all I want and it normally won't even leave a dent in my happiness. This time I'll admit that it does feel awful, but I'm feeling guilt and self-disgust for a good reason, and it actually is helping me. You may be right that it's not helping others though, if that's what you mean? Now I'm unsure, isn't that what people who have been hurt want the offender to feel...? At any rate there's no need for anyone to feel bad for my sake. I am definitely not looking for apologies from others for something I might as well consider an answer to my prayer. In fact, I asked God to teach me more about empathy, just a couple of months before this whole thing. I didn't expect the lesson to come in this way, but the nice version I was given at first I simply interpreted as "Be more social!!" and it didn't bite on me because being social is my bane. God must know that sometimes, humans learn best from being allowed to make their own mistakes. Then he gave me a chance to recover a bit before filling me in on what I might've struggled to take from strangers. Of course, this experience hasn't magically just given me a lot of empathy, but I have learned much that I didn't know before, and it is a first step.

And about self-forgiveness... that is the only forgiveness I don't practise. To me, that would be like saying that I don't need God. But I'll be fine. I trust God to heal me, like he always does, and I can let go of the pain through his forgiveness. So I don't even need my own for that (denying my real feelings in favor of self-forgiveness sounds like a chore, anyway).

Thanks for caring, though. You're a kind person~ ^^