Author Topic: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'  (Read 130530 times)

Annuil

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2021, 11:50:42 PM »
Oh my word! The bunny comic! I have to read it! But it’s 23:47 and my phone is going to turn on the sleep mode so I wouldn’t be able to finish reading!.. and tomorrow is my birthday, so I will need to wake up on time and still look good enough for pictures and zoom-calls!.. what do I do? What do I do!?..
Never mind, I’m just too excited even though I see people not liking it... well, I need to read it myself  ;)
I will post something here once I do that  :reynir:
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2021, 12:44:21 AM »
I'm not Christian anymore, but I was for a very good portion of my life, and while I have my personal issues with the religion, I do believe it does have many aspects to it that are genuinely good. Looking at the comic through the lens of what I would've wanted to see when I used to be Christian, I think my biggest issue with it is that it promotes the idea that modern culture and technology is inherently evil and that Christians should completely reject and cut themselves off from modern culture, instead of finding a way to live out their beliefs and love others within the context they're living in.

Like, I think it's a healthy thing to identify the flaws in your culture, and think about how you can live out your beliefs and love others within the context that you're in without forfeiting the things you stand for, but the idea that modern culture and technology is always evil or out to get you just isn't healthy. Then again, as others here have said, this attitude does seem to link in to Minna's overly defensive attitude towards criticism, as seen in the Emil/China incident back in Adventure 1.
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thorny

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2021, 01:47:05 AM »
Well that comic was unnerving as -- never mind, no swearing on these boards.

What, I wonder, is Minna going to do with all her pagan characters in SSSS?

I do really like this community. And I do really like the comic -- or at least I have been, who knows where it's going now. But I don't know that I want to hang around with Minna any longer.

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2021, 01:51:44 AM »
But it isn't even much of an exaggeration of China's Social Credit System. 

The problem isn't with the depiction of the Social Credit System (though conflating it with having to show proof of not being infected in order to get on a crowded plane is conspiracy theory territory). It's with positing the only possible other choice as the sort of Christianity which claims that Christianity is the only moral possibility.

JoB

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2021, 03:55:37 AM »
Not to come across as too negative, but I really didn't like this comic a lot.
Not all allegories have to be subtle but the Christian stuff was really on the nose and it didn't sit with me
I'm still trying to pinpoint what the exact message Minna wanted to send with that is. I see a number of possibilities for the time being, and yes, some of those brush me in a very wrong way ...

the author's note didn't sit well with me, especially this sentence.
As Bunnies already pointed out, that's Minnas prediction for what it'll be like in a world that has fully gone "we at Alizongle and World Council do not want you to point out flaws in our society, or its individual members unless we reviewed and acknowledged them as a Bad Person™".

but I've also seen some Christians says that the bible isn't against self improvement...
A religion that opposes "self improvement" but simultaneously wants people to convert to it because that's "better" for you would be a joke. However, Christians have had a time where their definition of "self improvement" boiled down to "this world is a lost cause anyway, you need to focus on your afterlife", which would invalidate all attempts at "self improvement" in a secular sense. As far as I know, that strict "vale of tears" interpretation is absent from all major versions of Christianism today.

By the way, that interpretation does have a historic connection to the "light at the end of the tunnel" symbolism, so I am wondering what might have given rise to the half-overgrown ventilation shafts at the end of the comic. Certainly Minna doesn't mean to imply that one can physically walk away from a pervasive control freak society to a Shangri La that the Big Bad cannot possibly follow you to ...

actually it depicts an "if this goes on" dystopia, so it is naturally an exaggeration.  But it isn't even much of an exaggeration of China's Social Credit System.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System .
+1 to that. And I'd add that if left to their own devices, the big data miners of the West would establish a system that's not very far from it, either. They wouldn't claim to be running a proper society or nation, just an ever-tighter ship on their company and its customers, but that's not much of a difference if you look at a de facto monopoly.

What, I wonder, is Minna going to do with all her pagan characters in SSSS?
She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...

The problem isn't with the depiction of the Social Credit System (though conflating it with having to show proof of not being infected in order to get on a crowded plane is conspiracy theory territory). It's with positing the only possible other choice as the sort of Christianity which claims that Christianity is the only moral possibility.
That's one of the troubling possibilities I mentioned above. In the comic, The Holy Bible (1.0) seems to have appeared out of nowhere in people's bookcases (physical and virtual); no indication of ancestors passing it on as a heirloom, preachers (or the Gideons) handing out copies, discussions of how (a-bit-less-than-)true it is to the original divine intent (apart from the one toot where a bunny opposed 2.0 with the argument that the Word of God ought to be immutable), all those opportunities where in the real world, people get told that the official gospel trumps their own attempts at interpretation. The Bible, at least when someone holds it up ready-made to the crowd in RL like Minna does with this comic and the closing remarks, is very much not a living antithesis to "we at Alizongle tell you what a good person should be thinking".
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Superdark33

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2021, 04:10:35 AM »
All of that not to mention the "World Concuil that controlls everything and everyone and hates christians" being a very old antisemitic trope, and the mockery of "inclusivity" with the segment explaining "Bible 2", especially the bit with mocking gender neutrality on there.


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People disagreeing with her on any subject are basically Jesus Haters who are Evil.


Yes Minna. It IS offensive to go around telling people theyre going to hell for living their life in this Society.

Complaining about toxic positivity not lallowing people to hear dissent and the  smothering herself with loving comments.
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LilG

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2021, 04:14:04 AM »
She already had a Danish Lutheran pastor perform an exorcism that their own efforts pretty much pale against ...

To address this:
During this week’s stream she said that the pastor Anne stuff was done when she was still an atheist. It was just another mythological religion to her at the time she wrote it, nothing more.

She’s been a devout Christian only for a year and a half - two years, from what I heard her also say during the stream, which still places her conversion a while after the conclusion of the first adventure 
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2021, 04:30:04 AM »
To address this:
During this week’s stream she said that the pastor Anne stuff was done when she was still an atheist. It was just another mythological religion to her at the time she wrote it, nothing more.
I suspected that much, seeing that she probably wouldn't have put a member of the Danish folkekirken as a representative of her own Christian belief, but if she wants to reshape SSSS to match her new conviction, having the team discover similar remnants of Christianism elsewhere which then proceed to cleanse the world - Known as well as Silent - once and for all would be what I'd expect to happen.
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2021, 04:52:55 AM »
If I hadn't found a certain youtuber when I had, there is a chance that I, myself, would have been a little like Minna when it comes to some vulnerable groups I'm not part of, and what harmful beliefs I still have without realizing it are definitely not going to go away from one day to the next. I also know that when my brain is in "defense mode", it will be on the lookout for reasons that hill is worth dying on rather than pondering whether that hill is worth dying on in the first place.  Because of that and comments I've seen, I kind of half-expected Minna to have gone down the very kind of rabbit hole I narrowly avoided, and that it may show in a new work, so I went in prepared for that.

I'd say the story worked for me up to the point when it started clearly promoting Christianity as the only right way and scoffing at the idea of adapting it to the times. I'm saying that as an agnostic who's still treating Christianity as the "default" religion on some level because of the environment she lives in. On the other hand, whether I agree with the politics of a story usually factors quite little in my enjoyment, so the comic still rates as readable in my book.
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Róisín

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2021, 04:54:13 AM »
Interesting idea. From my point of view, religious faith is a private matter between the individual person/soul and their god or gods, and not really my business except insofar as it directly affects my interaction with that person. I am happy in my own faith, and not concerned about what other people believe so long as they are courteous and do not try to forcibly convert me ‘for my own good’. I promise not to plant trees in their cathedrals, and hope to receive the same courtesy.

That system of forcible conversion didn’t work too well in the long term for the Inquisition, and hopefully will not work in the modern world, where there are at least some laws that address freedom of religion. I really think that Minna is too civilised a person to be vicious about this, and I hope that her conversion does not spark acrimony among the fans. Let us leave Minna to explore her new faith in peace, and I am curious to see if and how her work is affected.
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Kis

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2021, 06:57:30 AM »
...a comic about cute bunnies, huh.
I just really hope Minna won't channel these, um, notions into SSSS. Of course everyone has the right to have their own opinions and beliefs, but I agree that quite a lot of Minna's statements are, well.. yeah.  O_o
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Lenny

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2021, 07:04:17 AM »
I want to preface this with a disclaimer. This comment will be from the perspective of a Christian, but don't take it as anything other than a personal take. I can't really be unbiased while reading this comic. Until I was 15, I had no contact in real life with anyone who identified as atheist, or even anything other than Christian - and among those, not even any Catholics. And yet, my family was shunned, my father, as a minister who devoted his life to his work, was passed along as a problem from church to church and only once, for a period of 3 years, was he paid a living wage - while working fulltime. Christian friends I grew up with were either shunned when getting pregnant out of wedlock (because of course that happened), were the ones doing the judging on those friends, or dealt with really difficult depression and suicidal thoughts. Most adversity I've gone through in my life that has been directed at me personally has been inflicted by Christians. I've since found a way that I can reconcile being a Christian with those events, but I believe it's an intensely personal decision and relationship for everyone, and not something that I can or should tell anyone to do.

This comic... reminded me of all the dusty books on the shelf in my Christian primary school, the almost abandoned children's Sunday school rooms in various churches I went to, and the books old women donated to my mother for us children to read.

AKA, let's take a common trope and Christianize it, and ignore any other viewpoint other than Christian. Even as a small child that felt laughable and I mostly read them as a thing to laugh at a bit while enjoying the few good points hidden beneath it, that I later discovered were explored far better in other literature.

This comic isn't real. It doesn't explore anything new. It tries to evangelize by hitting you on top of the head with a book (protip: telling people they're damned by a god they don't believe in because they're inherently bad/selfish doesn't really work - even as a Christian that drives me away), and from reading the author's notes is originating from a distrust in COVID regulations as well as her own experience of being called out online, which sits with me even less well. It has a few good, interesting points, and I can see people reading it without much issue, looking past the evangelizing and limited viewpoint like I did with those musty old Christian stories as a child. But it has a naive view of Christianity, a naive view of cancel culture, and it takes no interesting direction with any of the tropes it uses. It doesn't even explore why the faith in Christianity is worth keeping, other than kinda equating it with critique on the system as a whole. And it doesn't explore any of the potential damage Christianity can do, which is so important when so many people both inside and outside of it have been damaged by it. You can't just hand-wave the hurt away and claim to be a victim only.

And simultaneously, along with the author's notes, it feels incredibly judgemental and isolationist. Very "I am saying that I'm not smart and not an authority on this, but I'm correct anyway and judging you". It's merging Christianity and a personal bugbear.

I dunno. If you want to read a good comic that explores religion, go read something like Suihira: The City of Water, or Daughter of the Lilies. This one rubs me the wrong way completely.

It's also probably going to be the last time I read a comic by Minna, unless it's obvious to me that she's grown somewhat. Due to my personal history, I get affected badly by stuff like this. It's like reading a story as an abuse survivor that deals with an abusive relationship written by someone who's never been in one, and who hasn't talked to anyone who has, and is trying to sell the idea that all relationships are always good - and therefore, my experience is invalid. She is entitled to her own journey, and I hope she does well on it and grows as a person, but where she is right now is not somewhere I can join her.
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2021, 07:25:37 AM »
I watched all of her art stream yesterday, just to clear something up on SSSS. She views that world as entirely fantasy and doesn't seem interested in taking it in a Christian angle (not to guarantee she never will but as of right now she doesn't see her use of pagan religions as contradictory to her own faith).

She also says she was entirely atheist when she wrote the pastor Anne arc and was treating Christianity as any other mythology, so if anything it's unlikely we'll be seeing a Pastor Anne 2: the Christening any time soon.

That being said, she seemed dismissive (or at least ignorant) of the idea that any significant group of people genuinely believed in Nordic (especially Finnish) pagan beliefs because she thought they were quite unrealistic stories.
She went as far as to compare the temple of Asas in Iceland to Jedi churches in Australia (as in just a bunch of people in a culture hanging out together under the guise of a religion they don't believe in)
I want to stress I'm not an expert/part of these places, but I've heard other people say that whilst small, there are actually people who legitimately practice these pagan religions seriously, but also for all I know it could be literally 5 people in the Finnish wilderness somewhere, I certainly hadn't heard of them before the stream.

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2021, 07:35:17 AM »
IDK if anyone cares, but for what it's worth I'll probably keep reading SSSS, I feel wary about Minna but I like her characters and I want a front row seat if the comic ever does dive head first into Christianity.

In terms of good Christian comic recommendations, I can't vouch for it personally, but I'm in a server with someone who really likes this graphic novel called "Judas" by Jeff Loveness and Jakub Rebelka (I think it's Christian from how they've described it and apparently it's got really good art)

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2021, 07:50:56 AM »
Lenny, I very much agree with your position - this comic definitely reminds me of those weird Christian stories you'd get given as a kid, that now sit in a very vague part of my memory that I'm not gonna touch. And yeah, as you said, - it kinda just whacks you on the head with 'jesuschristisourlordandsaviour thegovernmentisouttogetyou followjesusandhewillsaveyou fromyoursinsandthissinfulworld' without actually addressing any of the deeper themes or meaning behind the religion, or why it's something you should follow. It doesn't make you think seriously about Christianity, it just looks like another wacko evangelist trying to force things down your throat.

Also, I want to say that I really admire your choice to reconcile with Christianity despite everything that happened to you - that's not a place I've reached myself, and I don't know if it's a place I'll ever reach, but it's something that a part of me definitely aches for. I dunno. It's complicated.
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