I get very uncomfortable when they start telling me things about what a bad person I am and how apparently nobody can have any sort of moral compass simply out of their own sense of fairness, kindness and compassion? As if they believe that without being told to follow the Christian moral codes (on pain of Hellfire) everyone would just default to indiscriminate violence, abuse and crime? I consider myself as having a very strong inner moral compass, and in some cases it even overlaps with Christian morals. But the thing is that violence, greed, abuse and crime aren't less prevalent in Christian countries, and some of the countries with the strongest Christian traditions also have some of the highest rates of violent crime, and also abuses that are sanctioned (or at least tolerated) by the religious communities.
Yeah, this is spot-on what this thread (and some other outside comments) made me realize. It made me think about
what they were talking about when they considered me somewhat amoral? I've heard and pretty strongly believe that more or less everyone considers themselves "good" or at least well-intentioned to some degree, and while studying your faith can be a path to that or provide the scaffolding for your morals (or maybe... keep you from being your worst?), the belief that you are
infallible to doing something with a
bad consequence is something you need to be wary of on the other end... I mean, based on what you said, I think we can both agree that the reason we aren't doing Bad things on purpose is not because we aren't Good Christians, though others may learn that you shouldn't do Bad things on purpose through a religious lens (and that is a way! But not The Only Way! ...huh, I accidentally repeated almost verbatim a line from the Bunny Comic)
(Not that people who don't have religion in their lives are inherently better or immune to Bad, either. We're all human.)
Some people also try to denounce people who use Christianity as a motivation for abuses/discrimination (saying they're Not Real Christians), but unfortunately I think that's a fallacy that doesn't really... solve the problem. The problem of the faith as a whole being unwelcoming to the specific group being hurt by it.
...None of this is to dismiss that I still think most of my friends are better people for following the teachings of their faith. It's just on the extreme (?) end of people using faith as a means to an end or seeing it as a protective shield. Actually, that just gave me more to think about...
Like Roisin has said, proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.
Hmm, come to think of it, most atheists that I know still tend to have an appreciation for faiths that don't proselytize. I like learning about them through a historical lens myself. It depends on one's background, but proselytizing is irritating either way when you'll either a) be preached to in the context of a faith that you detached yourself from because you realized it wasn't good for you or b) be preached to by a faith that you just don't believe in and can't bring yourself to believe in because you just... don't believe in it. It just... doesn't really add up either way, though I guess it has worked considering some missionaries have been successful.
I'm not sure about Islamic sects, but I think they're so far the only ones outside of Christian sects that I've seen literal advertisements on the subway for. It felt quite surreal, mostly because I absolutely did not expect to see it on a random weekday. But, y'know, it's a similar situation there where Islam did have some good effects, but also some bad ones, depending on your perspective. I think you can find some examples in the history of the Ottoman Empire. Of course, as usual, good and bad are subjective.
I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising, even if it was spiritual and cultural rather than military and political, but it certainly went hand in hand with those. Christian mission has steamrolled over and obliterated so many rich and complex cultures with long traditions of spirituality, and destroyed the evidence of them in the process (something we all gasped in collective shock over when jihadists did/do the same in SWANA countries). Some of those countries had a lot more diversity and acceptance toward completely harmless things like nudity, pre-marriage sex or LGBTQ+ people before colonisation than the West did, and now they are among the most conservative and intolerant cultures in the world. So I can understand how a Christian person in one of those countries might feel very conflicted about their faith. On one hand, it's a source of strength and comfort. On the other, it's a tool of oppression and of a war on their culture. And non-Christians may have an even bleaker view on Christianity.
Perhaps Christians need to believe and tout the moral superiority of their faith in order not to feel ashamed of its history?
Spoiler: it is long • show
Oh, a comprehensive discussion about Christianity absolutely cannot avoid the whole colonialism part. It's safe to say that we will never know what the world would've been like without Christian influence, and we will never know if it would've been better or worse or... the same? We can speculate, we can imagine, we can write out alternate timelines and nitpick at cause and effect, but we can never know for certain.
To be clear, none of these places were perfect. We're all human, humans made these places, and we all have flaws, but there's a misconception that Christians Made It Better and that there was no other way for that to happen. If you do a bit of research for primary sources, you'll probably find a lot of evidence of Christians believing their faith superior in some way and most act under the assumption that they were the bringers of "progress". Anyway, much like anything else, we'll never know how these cultures would've perceived things that they now consider a sin... Even in places where Christianity does not have a vice grip (loosely speaking, judging by demographics and personal experience), like Japan and mainland China, some of these perceptions still took root in society. So, yes, people from places that were colonized to any extent will have to deal with the fact that their source of comfort did overwrite their long, long history, especially if you're in the LGBTQ+ community or another group that missionaries Did Not Like. And there's also a worthwhile conversation about generational suffering and cycles of abuse caused by these things... and hopefully some way to end a few eventually...
On the question of how Christians feel about their history... again I am going off personal experience. A lot of people here (North America, or Canada, or both idk), especially if you're white and generally... avoid the internet (?), can get away with learning pretty much nothing about the history of Christianity or history at all. When questioned about it, a number of people at my school/at work just... said they did not care about it. And history books are often far too curt or neutral with their descriptions and don't really tell you Some Things Europeans Did Were Harmful. So... more research is required? Or a better education system...
Anyway, I'm kind of preaching (lol) to the choir in this thread. There are still, doubtlessly, good Christians out there who maybe have managed to divorce their concept of faith from proselytizing/the christian mission and are just trying to be kind in accordance with the other teachings of their faith, but I don't think anyone enforcing colonialism/the christian mission would make it more than three pages into this thread, much less forty-seven, and then read our thoughts and go, hm, missionaries sure did some messed up things. But hey, if this blurb is something people are interested in reading, uhhh, enjoy?
The internet is a highly problematic place, but at its best, it's certainly a source of joy, a way to connect with people and exchange ideas and art and companionship. For me and other people who struggle with real life social interactions, the benefits definitely outweigh the downsides. But I have found that you need to learn how to regulate it.
Yep, yep, as great as it is to have the darkest and brightest parts of humanity at your fingertips, sometimes that's a power that you shouldn't use, really. But this forum and the other places where you can find companionship if you try hard enough are good to have at your fingertips. The internet helped me meet and talk more with people I cherish, especially now in the cursed COVID-19 era where Everyone You Know is your internet friend! (help)
Catbirds, I agree with you that Christianity is Confusing. There are so many denominations and sects where even the teaching varies wildly, and on top of that is the way people interpret that in their lives... there isn't one Christianity, even inside any given denomination or sect. Finland is largely Lutheran protestant, and we have religious studies at school (yeah, no, I don't like it) so I have been taught an official version so to speak. And within that, some are very loving and embracing different people, while others are condemning everything except their own holy ways. I lost my train of thought now but yeah, confusing!
Someone also just posted on the Disqus comments a lengthy comment about how a Christianity-focused worldview and even a story strongly about Christianity can be very many things, and how the future works maybe could build on that and become rich stories instead of thinly-veiled proselytizing. Let's remain hopeful!
I am not a professional historian or even close to one, but I was pretty interested when our history teacher taught us about schisms in the church. So, yes, I am more or less aware of that spiderweb of a diagram describing just a few of the... many... sects of Christianity that exist. It's one of those cases where a small (to me) difference in belief is
all the difference to a Christian, which requires outsiders to realize, yes, this is something that is deeply important to them and you have to accept that to understand the historical significance of this event and, later down the line, why all these other sects exist. (I think it's safe to do this as long as it's... safely outside of the context of colonization/the blurb beneath the spoiler)
(Here in my province within Canada, we have much more freedom in choosing what to learn about, though some people have argued that people miss out on important topics because of this. I personally was interested in the system they have in Germany, where you can choose to learn about ethics on its own OR religion for those neat High School (blhhrhf,... Gymnasium) Credits.)
I also would not turn my nose up at a story just because it has Christian themes. And! I guess knowing that there are accepting and kind people in Lutheran protestant groups is pretty good news for the future of Minna's works. I'll err on the side of caution, but hopefully her learning in the next year will provide a much,
much more nuanced view of the topic.
