Author Topic: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'  (Read 130936 times)

Tarnagh

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #690 on: May 01, 2021, 08:48:40 PM »
I could be misremembering, but didn't she imply there were going to be more adventures than 2? Like 5?
If you're misremembering, then so am I. I remember something from Minna (or someone else saying Minna had said, not sure) saying that she planned an adventure in each of the countries of the Known World. The first was Denmark, this one is Finland. Missing are Iceland, Sweden, and Norway. Pretty sure those aren't happening now. If she makes it to them dispatching the Kade, I'll be genuinely surprised. At this point I almost expect a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" ending just so Minna can be shut of SSSS and move on to her new pet project fully. :(
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #691 on: May 01, 2021, 09:08:15 PM »
There were more adventures, but the last I’ve heard was that the next ones were more ideas rather than full-fledged arcs. Now she has said she’ll take Adventure 2 to it’s planned end with no changes, but time will tell. Or, well, we won’t know about changes (even she doesn’t necessarily realize changes that result from a change in world view), but we would notice if it came to an abrupt end, I assume she meant that she’ll take the story to the same end situation she had planned all the time. SSSS is her work and sole source of funding for living, which means it wouldn’t be easy to end it very quickly either. We’ll just have to wait and see.

There ha been a lot about the bears. A LOT. But, they are in the cover, which was drawn before her conversion, so they were meant to feature strongly even at that time.
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Aprillen

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #692 on: May 02, 2021, 03:00:09 PM »
Hello! Long, long time since I posted on this forum. I did try to read this topic in its entirety, and got to some point past page 30, but it just kept growing, and in the end I gave up. Sorry. Still, I felt a lot of relief reading everyone's feelings and opinions in those pages I did read. To have found people like you lot, who are smart and kind and critically thinking feels like such a stroke of luck. I don't have any deep traumatic experiences with the Christian religion, but it has always made me deeply uncomfortable, and I actually left the Church of Sweden at around 13, the age when everyone else was starting to talk about their confirmation (and how they'd get presents -- sometimes I feel like I, who veer between agnosticism and atheism, take religion more seriously than a lot of people who are calling themselves Christian). And I have never regretted that decision.

That discomfort is not waning with the years, rather the reverse. And I think it has largely to do with it being a proselytising religion. And the message, when boiled down to its bare bones (and looked at from the outside, with no other religion colouring my perception) looks like the worst kind of scam. You know, when you sell something to somebody that they've never needed before, by convincing them that they are in fact bad people and even in severe peril unless they drink this koolaid and join the cult -- convincing someone that they are in danger so that the cult can come in and save them from the imaginary danger. And once they do they will somehow be better than everybody else. (I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone; I'm just trying to express what makes me uncomfortable with the religion, and I understand that everyone has different experiences.)

I've been reading Minna's comics since some point in the latter half of ARTD, so I was along from the start of SSSS, when there were only 50-odd comments on every page, slowly growing, until there were hundreds, and I had to accept that I couldn't keep up with them anymore. (Some of you may remember me from those earlier days, most of you probably won't.) I just went to the comic and caught up with the new pages since the chapter break ended, and it seems as if the number of comments have gone down again, but it's not the fun and exhilarating experience to read them as it used to be. I see that some of you are still there, but mostly it seems to be new people who are cheering the new religious aspect of Minna.

And most sadly of all, despite Minna having said that she will continue the present storyline according to its original intent, I somehow didn't enjoy reading the new pages. Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.

I confess that I haven't read LP. As soon as I saw the words "Christian homemaker" in the blurb, I got cold feet. So I came here to read what you have all written about it, and what I found didn't encourage me to read it. I get anxious just thinking about it. I hope you can forgive me for coming here and joining the discussion without having read it, but I felt like I have somehow lost this comic and the community around it (even if I haven't been very active for the past few years).
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #693 on: May 02, 2021, 03:23:53 PM »
Aprillen, it’s good to see you here and good to hear the discussion has been helpful for you. The feeling of emptiness is something many of us (myself included) have also described. Someone called it feels like Minna is just going through the motions. I have recently been feeling better though so maybe this feeling will pass, assuming that SSSS does go on as normal after all.

While you are here, do take a look around! We have decided we’ll keep the community going! So you are welcome to join us here more often!
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Róisín

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #694 on: May 03, 2021, 12:37:15 AM »
Hello again, Aprillen! Good to read you again.

 I second your feelings about LP, though I come from the viewpoint of a lifelong Pagan who feels strongly that a religious choice is at least as personal and private a matter as a marriage, and really nobody else’s business outside the person and the god involved. I think it is the One True Way aspect that disgusts me, and the insistent proselytising. We are actively forbidden to proselytise, though we may explain if asked or if in a situation where that is expected. And it is sad to see the decline in quality of writing and art.
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #695 on: May 03, 2021, 02:24:31 AM »
Hm... looks like there's still a lot of feelings for people here to process. My initial anger has calmed down by a bit...

Aprillen, hi! Good to hear from you (I don't think I have yet). One of the neat (?) things about this thread is that it did bring back quite a few people, even if the circumstances are uhhh... these. As a half-reply half-personal thing:

It's weird that I personally didn't really have a problem with the faith aspect (I also don't have any religious trauma). A pretty large number of my friends have found comfort in their faith, and I was pretty... alright with it throughout high school? But, hm, reading this thread has been a learning experience for me, mostly as a look into how some Christians perceive their own faith... I've been told a number of times that my morals are lacking because I never decided to think of a god, but it's been pretty easy to brush off because from an outsider's perspective it just sounds kinda nonsensical...???

So, for that, I'm not sure about the whole cult aspect of the conversation because my friends were just, y'know, typical Christian churchgoers, most of them orthodox. The end notes for LP made sense when considered through the orthodox lens because of that. You could also make an argument that maybe there are some aspects of orthodox Christianity that are, in the current context, inherently unhealthy, but many people have arguments against that too (which I don't know enough about to counter).

As a bit of a counterpoint, a friend I have who is from an area in Asia that was violently colonized for a While and converted by missionaries ended up with very conflicting feelings about her faith, despite her initial sense of comfort. In no way is she an exception to the rule, either... But this side of the conversation is a Lot, has a Lot of Dots that I'm not willing to connect on my own for my lack of knowledge about Christianity.

For a couple years and I think even now, I had generally positive feelings towards Christianity as a whole and saw it as a good thing if one chose it, but reading this thread... it's made me reexamine some experiences I've had. I didn't really write this out to prove a point or anything, just to map out some very confusing bits about the Christian faith from what I've gathered over several years, that I felt were somewhat relevant to some points you and some others have brought up. Maybe that's it, Christianity is Confusing and its impact on the world is Confusing, though proselytizing gets a solid pass from me.

Hmm... as a closing note, I'd say don't worry about reading LP. And as the content warning implies, I even more strongly insist against reading the afterword. The story itself was lukewarm (not in a good way?), so not impossible to stomach.

ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE! This whole LP thing and the changes Minna has planned got a lot of people talking about how they use the internet. I know people's feelings of emptiness for SSSS are generally considered a bad thing, but I got something good out of it? I've been seeing the internet as a burden and an obligation, more or less willing to see it as the dumpster fire that it is (aka desensitization). I've come to realize that the internet should be an enjoyable thing. At least, it seems like a better way to include it in your life.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 02:28:49 AM by catbirds »

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #696 on: May 03, 2021, 04:50:52 AM »
Catbirds, I agree with you that Christianity is Confusing. There are so many denominations and sects where even the teaching varies wildly, and on top of that is the way people interpret that in their lives... there isn't one Christianity, even inside any given denomination or sect. Finland is largely Lutheran protestant, and we have religious studies at school (yeah, no, I don't like it) so I have been taught an official version so to speak. And within that, some are very loving and embracing different people, while others are condemning everything except their own holy ways. I lost my train of thought now but yeah, confusing!

Someone also just posted on the Disqus comments a lengthy comment about how a Christianity-focused worldview and even a story strongly about Christianity can be very many things, and how the future works maybe could build on that and become rich stories instead of thinly-veiled proselytizing. Let's remain hopeful!
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Aprillen

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #697 on: May 03, 2021, 06:17:00 AM »
Aprillen, hi! Good to hear from you (I don't think I have yet). One of the neat (?) things about this thread is that it did bring back quite a few people, even if the circumstances are uhhh... these. As a half-reply half-personal thing:

It's weird that I personally didn't really have a problem with the faith aspect (I also don't have any religious trauma). A pretty large number of my friends have found comfort in their faith, and I was pretty... alright with it throughout high school? But, hm, reading this thread has been a learning experience for me, mostly as a look into how some Christians perceive their own faith... I've been told a number of times that my morals are lacking because I never decided to think of a god, but it's been pretty easy to brush off because from an outsider's perspective it just sounds kinda nonsensical...???
Hello Catbirds! Nice to meet you!

I generally don't have a problem with other people having a faith, especially if it brings them comfort and helps them be better versions of themselves -- but I get very uncomfortable when they start telling me things about what a bad person I am and how apparently nobody can have any sort of moral compass simply out of their own sense of fairness, kindness and compassion? As if they believe that without being told to follow the Christian moral codes (on pain of Hellfire) everyone would just default to indiscriminate violence, abuse and crime? I consider myself as having a very strong inner moral compass, and in some cases it even overlaps with Christian morals. But the thing is that violence, greed, abuse and crime aren't less prevalent in Christian countries, and some of the countries with the strongest Christian traditions also have some of the highest rates of violent crime, and also abuses that are sanctioned (or at least tolerated) by the religious communities. I know that Christians do a lot of good, but I don't think they do more good in general than, say, buddhists, or even atheists. So when people start proselytising at me, I find it hard to stomach. Like Roisin has said, proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.

Quote
As a bit of a counterpoint, a friend I have who is from an area in Asia that was violently colonized for a While and converted by missionaries ended up with very conflicting feelings about her faith, despite her initial sense of comfort. In no way is she an exception to the rule, either... But this side of the conversation is a Lot, has a Lot of Dots that I'm not willing to connect on my own for my lack of knowledge about Christianity.
I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising, even if it was spiritual and cultural rather than military and political, but it certainly went hand in hand with those. Christian mission has steamrolled over and obliterated so many rich and complex cultures with long traditions of spirituality, and destroyed the evidence of them in the process (something we all gasped in collective shock over when jihadists did/do the same in SWANA countries). Some of those countries had a lot more diversity and acceptance toward completely harmless things like nudity, pre-marriage sex or LGBTQ+ people before colonisation than the West did, and now they are among the most conservative and intolerant cultures in the world. So I can understand how a Christian person in one of those countries might feel very conflicted about their faith. On one hand, it's a source of strength and comfort. On the other, it's a tool of oppression and of a war on their culture. And non-Christians may have an even bleaker view on Christianity.

Perhaps Christians need to believe and tout the moral superiority of their faith in order not to feel ashamed of its history?

Quote
Hmm... as a closing note, I'd say don't worry about reading LP. And as the content warning implies, I even more strongly insist against reading the afterword. The story itself was lukewarm (not in a good way?), so not impossible to stomach.

ON A MORE POSITIVE NOTE! This whole LP thing and the changes Minna has planned got a lot of people talking about how they use the internet. I know people's feelings of emptiness for SSSS are generally considered a bad thing, but I got something good out of it? I've been seeing the internet as a burden and an obligation, more or less willing to see it as the dumpster fire that it is (aka desensitization). I've come to realize that the internet should be an enjoyable thing. At least, it seems like a better way to include it in your life.

Thank you! I might try and read it at some point when I feel more emotionally stable than I do right now. But it would be merely out of curiosity, and not because I have any real wish to read it.

The internet is a highly problematic place, but at its best, it's certainly a source of joy, a way to connect with people and exchange ideas and art and companionship. For me and other people who struggle with real life social interactions, the benefits definitely outweigh the downsides. But I have found that you need to learn how to regulate it.
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thegreyarea

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #698 on: May 03, 2021, 06:24:59 AM »
Aprillen, it's good to hear from you!

Seconding what catbirds and Jitter said.
I grew in Brazil, a predominantly catholic country, and met wonderful catholics that went to great lenghts to help those in need, and also depicable catholics that rejected anyone that falls out of the rule (and there were those that just used religion for their own interests...). I studied on a catholic school (public school were, and are, sadly undefunded) and we obviously had religious studies, mostly on the Faith, that I, and my coleagues, found increasingly boring. But in the final years those classes covered comparative studies with other faiths, including the most relevant ones (monotheistic or not), explained without any prejudice (as far as I can recall). Those were very interesting.

There is wonderful art based on religion in general and on Christianity in particular. So I join the hope that Minna's future works will let go the proselytizing words and focus on the bright side of the religion.
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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #699 on: May 03, 2021, 11:30:39 PM »
. I don't have any deep traumatic experiences with the Christian religion, but it has always made me deeply uncomfortable, and I actually left the Church of Sweden at around 13, the age when everyone else was starting to talk about their confirmation

I remember fantasizing irrationally when I about 9, as my family drove to church, wishing the Old Gods still existed and you got to pick your god.
I grew up in the liberal wing of the Presbyterian Church, and had never met any fundamentalists, evangelicals, or charismatics. When I got close to confirmation age, the implications of the central doctrine began to trouble me.  I blew off confirmation and my parents did not pressure me.

Shortly thereafter, we moved to a part of the country that was saturated with conservative and ultraconservative churches. During my teens the spiritual terrorism of these churches began to seep in.

That discomfort is not waning with the years, rather the reverse. )

I had stopped thinking about the toxic aspects of christianity for a long time, and nobody I knew was among the conservative believers. Then we got a couple of them at work, which I politely ignored, and then Lovely People happened. All the bad feelings I haven't had for years rushed back. So I count myself among those here who were deeply traumatized by christianity.

Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.

Same here. My first post details the basis of my sadness.  If you care to read, it's on Page 20 of this thread.


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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #700 on: May 04, 2021, 04:17:12 AM »
I get very uncomfortable when they start telling me things about what a bad person I am and how apparently nobody can have any sort of moral compass simply out of their own sense of fairness, kindness and compassion? As if they believe that without being told to follow the Christian moral codes (on pain of Hellfire) everyone would just default to indiscriminate violence, abuse and crime? I consider myself as having a very strong inner moral compass, and in some cases it even overlaps with Christian morals. But the thing is that violence, greed, abuse and crime aren't less prevalent in Christian countries, and some of the countries with the strongest Christian traditions also have some of the highest rates of violent crime, and also abuses that are sanctioned (or at least tolerated) by the religious communities.

Yeah, this is spot-on what this thread (and some other outside comments) made me realize. It made me think about what they were talking about when they considered me somewhat amoral? I've heard and pretty strongly believe that more or less everyone considers themselves "good" or at least well-intentioned to some degree, and while studying your faith can be a path to that or provide the scaffolding for your morals (or maybe... keep you from being your worst?), the belief that you are infallible to doing something with a bad consequence is something you need to be wary of on the other end... I mean, based on what you said, I think we can both agree that the reason we aren't doing Bad things on purpose is not because we aren't Good Christians, though others may learn that you shouldn't do Bad things on purpose through a religious lens (and that is a way! But not The Only Way! ...huh, I accidentally repeated almost verbatim a line from the Bunny Comic)

(Not that people who don't have religion in their lives are inherently better or immune to Bad, either. We're all human.)

Some people also try to denounce people who use Christianity as a motivation for abuses/discrimination (saying they're Not Real Christians), but unfortunately I think that's a fallacy that doesn't really... solve the problem. The problem of the faith as a whole being unwelcoming to the specific group being hurt by it.

...None of this is to dismiss that I still think most of my friends are better people for following the teachings of their faith. It's just on the extreme (?) end of people using faith as a means to an end or seeing it as a protective shield. Actually, that just gave me more to think about...

Like Roisin has said, proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.

Hmm, come to think of it, most atheists that I know still tend to have an appreciation for faiths that don't proselytize. I like learning about them through a historical lens myself. It depends on one's background, but proselytizing is irritating either way when you'll either a) be preached to in the context of a faith that you detached yourself from because you realized it wasn't good for you or b) be preached to by a faith that you just don't believe in and can't bring yourself to believe in because you just... don't believe in it. It just... doesn't really add up either way, though I guess it has worked considering some missionaries have been successful.

I'm not sure about Islamic sects, but I think they're so far the only ones outside of Christian sects that I've seen literal advertisements on the subway for. It felt quite surreal, mostly because I absolutely did not expect to see it on a random weekday. But, y'know, it's a similar situation there where Islam did have some good effects, but also some bad ones, depending on your perspective. I think you can find some examples in the history of the Ottoman Empire. Of course, as usual, good and bad are subjective.


I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising, even if it was spiritual and cultural rather than military and political, but it certainly went hand in hand with those. Christian mission has steamrolled over and obliterated so many rich and complex cultures with long traditions of spirituality, and destroyed the evidence of them in the process (something we all gasped in collective shock over when jihadists did/do the same in SWANA countries). Some of those countries had a lot more diversity and acceptance toward completely harmless things like nudity, pre-marriage sex or LGBTQ+ people before colonisation than the West did, and now they are among the most conservative and intolerant cultures in the world. So I can understand how a Christian person in one of those countries might feel very conflicted about their faith. On one hand, it's a source of strength and comfort. On the other, it's a tool of oppression and of a war on their culture. And non-Christians may have an even bleaker view on Christianity.

Perhaps Christians need to believe and tout the moral superiority of their faith in order not to feel ashamed of its history?

Spoiler: it is long • show

Oh, a comprehensive discussion about Christianity absolutely cannot avoid the whole colonialism part. It's safe to say that we will never know what the world would've been like without Christian influence, and we will never know if it would've been better or worse or... the same? We can speculate, we can imagine, we can write out alternate timelines and nitpick at cause and effect, but we can never know for certain.

To be clear, none of these places were perfect. We're all human, humans made these places, and we all have flaws, but there's a misconception that Christians Made It Better and that there was no other way for that to happen. If you do a bit of research for primary sources, you'll probably find a lot of evidence of Christians believing their faith superior in some way and most act under the assumption that they were the bringers of "progress". Anyway, much like anything else, we'll never know how these cultures would've perceived things that they now consider a sin... Even in places where Christianity does not have a vice grip (loosely speaking, judging by demographics and personal experience), like Japan and mainland China, some of these perceptions still took root in society. So, yes, people from places that were colonized to any extent will have to deal with the fact that their source of comfort did overwrite their long, long history, especially if you're in the LGBTQ+ community or another group that missionaries Did Not Like. And there's also a worthwhile conversation about generational suffering and cycles of abuse caused by these things... and hopefully some way to end a few eventually...

On the question of how Christians feel about their history... again I am going off personal experience. A lot of people here (North America, or Canada, or both idk), especially if you're white and generally... avoid the internet (?), can get away with learning pretty much nothing about the history of Christianity or history at all. When questioned about it, a number of people at my school/at work just... said they did not care about it. And history books are often far too curt or neutral with their descriptions and don't really tell you Some Things Europeans Did Were Harmful. So... more research is required? Or a better education system...

Anyway, I'm kind of preaching (lol) to the choir in this thread. There are still, doubtlessly, good Christians out there who maybe have managed to divorce their concept of faith from proselytizing/the christian mission and are just trying to be kind in accordance with the other teachings of their faith, but I don't think anyone enforcing colonialism/the christian mission would make it more than three pages into this thread, much less forty-seven, and then read our thoughts and go, hm, missionaries sure did some messed up things. But hey, if this blurb is something people are interested in reading, uhhh, enjoy?


The internet is a highly problematic place, but at its best, it's certainly a source of joy, a way to connect with people and exchange ideas and art and companionship. For me and other people who struggle with real life social interactions, the benefits definitely outweigh the downsides. But I have found that you need to learn how to regulate it.

Yep, yep, as great as it is to have the darkest and brightest parts of humanity at your fingertips, sometimes that's a power that you shouldn't use, really. But this forum and the other places where you can find companionship if you try hard enough are good to have at your fingertips. The internet helped me meet and talk more with people I cherish, especially now in the cursed COVID-19 era where Everyone You Know is your internet friend! (help)

Catbirds, I agree with you that Christianity is Confusing. There are so many denominations and sects where even the teaching varies wildly, and on top of that is the way people interpret that in their lives... there isn't one Christianity, even inside any given denomination or sect. Finland is largely Lutheran protestant, and we have religious studies at school (yeah, no, I don't like it) so I have been taught an official version so to speak. And within that, some are very loving and embracing different people, while others are condemning everything except their own holy ways. I lost my train of thought now but yeah, confusing!

Someone also just posted on the Disqus comments a lengthy comment about how a Christianity-focused worldview and even a story strongly about Christianity can be very many things, and how the future works maybe could build on that and become rich stories instead of thinly-veiled proselytizing. Let's remain hopeful!

I am not a professional historian or even close to one, but I was pretty interested when our history teacher taught us about schisms in the church. So, yes, I am more or less aware of that spiderweb of a diagram describing just a few of the... many... sects of Christianity that exist. It's one of those cases where a small (to me) difference in belief is all the difference to a Christian, which requires outsiders to realize, yes, this is something that is deeply important to them and you have to accept that to understand the historical significance of this event and, later down the line, why all these other sects exist. (I think it's safe to do this as long as it's... safely outside of the context of colonization/the blurb beneath the spoiler)

(Here in my province within Canada, we have much more freedom in choosing what to learn about, though some people have argued that people miss out on important topics because of this. I personally was interested in the system they have in Germany, where you can choose to learn about ethics on its own OR religion for those neat High School (blhhrhf,... Gymnasium) Credits.)

I also would not turn my nose up at a story just because it has Christian themes. And! I guess knowing that there are accepting and kind people in Lutheran protestant groups is pretty good news for the future of Minna's works. I'll err on the side of caution, but hopefully her learning in the next year will provide a much, much more nuanced view of the topic.

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #701 on: May 04, 2021, 07:05:03 AM »
I also would not turn my nose up at a story just because it has Christian themes.

catbirds, you just reminded me of a conversation I had with a friend, when I tried to explain her this LP problem. She concurred it seems wrong from A to Z but didn't understand why I have lost interest in SSSS. Civil discussion ensued; in short, she advocated for The Death of the Author. That does not mean anybody hopes something bad happens to any author! It is, instead, a way of reading and interpreting a work, where work and author are completely detached. By TDotA, when considering a work, nothing not explicitly inserted in that work exists. So neither author's intention, later explanations, even later sequels have to be considered. That'd mean that, as long as SSSS does not show itself as 'problematic,' there's no reason not to read it, as there's no link between it and LP.

I counter her by saying that taking TDotA to its logical extreme, all works were made 'yesterday' at most. And that's not fair. I can (and have) read A Christmas Carol by Dickens, tedious and proselytising as it is, and it has caused me nor a minor disturbance, as it was written 180 years ago. I've read The Lord of the Rings at least five times, and I have to have the fact that Tolkien was born in the late XIX century firmly placed in the backseat to answer for his portrayal of 'tanned peoples' as Sauron allies and his lack of compelling female characters. My enjoyment of Transmetropolitan, a 2000s graphic novel, has diminished because of the now-known fact that its author, Warren Ellis, has been behaving like its protagonist for years. (Discussion ended the moment I tried to explain why I won't read anything by Pérez Reverte –Captain Alatriste's author– nor Lovecraft, as I had forgotten she's quite fond of the latter so it wasn't a smart move on my part.)

And most sadly of all, despite Minna having said that she will continue the present storyline according to its original intent, I somehow didn't enjoy reading the new pages. Somehow the magic has gone out of it for me. This is probably an irrational reaction on my part, but I found myself skimming them, flipping the pages in an attempt to get through it. And the huge advertisement for LP right below the comic didn't help. I felt... sad.

I confess that I haven't read LP. As soon as I saw the words "Christian homemaker" in the blurb, I got cold feet.

Hi, Aprillen! You may have just missed my first post here (it's around page 33 I think?), but I subscribe everything you've said (I've had my dose of traumatic experience with Christianity tho).

I grew in Brazil, a predominantly catholic country, and met wonderful catholics that went to great lenghts to help those in need, and also depicable catholics that rejected anyone that falls out of the rule (and there were those that just used religion for their own interests...). I studied on a catholic school (public school were, and are, sadly undefunded) and we obviously had religious studies, mostly on the Faith, that I, and my coleagues, found increasingly boring. But in the final years those classes covered comparative studies with other faiths, including the most relevant ones (monotheistic or not), explained without any prejudice (as far as I can recall). Those were very interesting.

Change Brazil for Spain, and 'final years classes' for 'yay, I can finally swap Religion for Ethics!' and you've just written my education experience.

There is wonderful art based on religion in general and on Christianity in particular. So I join the hope that Minna's future works will let go the proselytizing words and focus on the bright side of the religion.
And! I guess knowing that there are accepting and kind people in Lutheran protestant groups is pretty good news for the future of Minna's works. I'll err on the side of caution, but hopefully her learning in the next year will provide a much, much more nuanced view of the topic.

I agree with your first sentence, thegrayarea. I could see this both you and catbirds say happening… if LP were a misunderstood work about the positive aspects of religion (cushion, comfort, strength, community… even growth I can accept not being a religious person myself). I wish for Minna to soften (even though I don't think I will read anything else by her), however LP is at best a cautionary tale bordering on fearmongering and at worst a paranoia-induced conspiratorial wannabe fable, and I don't think that leap to positive religion/non proselytising is possible nor even in the mid-term. But you tell me if/when I'm wrong and I'd be happy and relieved for everyone involved, I can assure you.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:07:30 AM by esedege »

Windfighter

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #702 on: May 04, 2021, 09:44:14 AM »
So the (very bad) warning Minna had about the heavy Christian theme of Lovely People is gone again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(I'm sure someone has already noted this in which case sorry about repeating the issue!)
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My stories frequently features themes such as death, suicide, mourning, etc; I cannot give precise warnings for each individual stories, as it would spoil the intrigues.

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #703 on: May 04, 2021, 10:13:49 AM »
I'm pagan and I used to be Christian. My dad is a Christian who says whatever I do is a sin and my mom is a Christian who believes that God loves everyone. You can be a Christian without going about telling people to repent their sins. Minna basically told everyone that in her warning/afterword. And just now in her comment on recent video. It scares me honestly. SSSS is my hyperfixation. I really REALLY don't want Minna's personal opinions to ruin it. Ever since I've got into SSSS I've been drawing Emilalli fanart and now I'm scared and unsure. I just want to keep enjoying SSSS. I don't want to think about this. It's honestly too much. And honestly I'm not angry at her. I'm WORRIED about her and what'll happen to her work. For now, I'll just keep reading SSSS since it brings me comfort and joy.

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Re: Lovely People aka 'the bunny comic'
« Reply #704 on: May 04, 2021, 11:26:32 AM »
proselytising is not an integral part of every religion. There are plenty of religions in the world that don't proselytise at all, or do it on a much more discreet scale than the Christian and Islamic sects, and those religions don't seem to bother me nearly as much.
I've been consuming a lot of Asian media (web novels, drama series, movies) in the past year, and in the discussions I've had with people about those, colonialism often crops up, and the way Christian mission was in fact just another way of colonising

I think that connection with colonialism is really apt; and I think it's the same underlying attitude; and I think it's also in a great deal of modern secular culture.

It's the attitude that 'there is only one right way to live.'

There's a massive difference between 'Hello, people who are living differently from us! We would like to visit you and trade with you, including both physical trade items and information about how each of our groups is living; and maybe you'll want to start doing some of those things and maybe not, and maybe we'll want to start doing some of your things and maybe not, and maybe some of each of our people will want to join the other group and maybe not' and 'Hello, people who are living differently from us! You're doing it wrong! We know the One Right Way To Live and we are going to teach it to you! -- by force and/or deceit if necessary.'

And the underlying attitude is IMO the same problem whether it's 'you must worship our god and follow our sexual customs' or 'you must hold land in individual title in the same fashion in which you own a pair of shoes' or 'everyone should live out in the country, living in cities is Bad' or 'everyone should live in cities, living in rural areas is Bad' (and yes I have run into both of those last two, as well as the other examples.)

Which is not to say that some ways of living don't do damage or that most or all of them couldn't be improved in some fashion. But it is to say that when you meet people who have the One True Way for Everybody to Live -- back away slowly, and prepare to defend yourself and others; it may be necessary.

So the (very bad) warning Minna had about the heavy Christian theme of Lovely People is gone again

Yeah, I noticed that too. Now it just says it's a 'cute and serious short story about a Social Credit system'.

See above about deceit.

I counter her by saying that taking TDotA to its logical extreme, all works were made 'yesterday' at most. And that's not fair.

An additional thing that bothers me about that approach is that, if one takes the author out of the work entirely, there isn't even any way of telling what any of the words mean.

The meaning of words changes both over time and over area and over social group. If one's not supposed to know anything about the author, it's not possible even to say, for instance, that somebody arguing for 'the death of the author' doesn't want to kill anybody. Because you wouldn't be allowed to know that they're talking in technical critical language, in which the phrase has a different meaning than the meaning it has 'in plain English'. [ETA: and that doesn't only change what you might think of the author, it also changes what the work itself means.]

But on the larger question -- is it OK to still love a work if you've concluded that the author's terrible? -- for one thing, it's also true that for any artwork that's shown to anybody other than its creator, some of the art happens also in the reader/viewer. And for another: we wouldn't just lose SSSS. We'd lose huge amounts of valuable work, in every field; and in some cases would not lose things only because we don't have information available about the author(s).

So for me that comes down to three issues, in no particular order: one, is the specific work bad in its essence, not just in a line here or there? two, is the work being read/heard/whatever with attention to and acknowlegement of any such lines here or there, and with awareness of less obvious issues? three, is money being spent on the work in such a fashion that it helps the author, or the author's inheritors, continue to do the bad thing?

And I think there are a whole lot of cases in which the answer to continuing to read/enjoy the work, and/or to build other work upon it, after consideration of those issues, is going to quite reasonably vary from one person to another.

But I do think it matters that the issues are considered.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 11:31:11 AM by thorny »