Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[Róisín]

I have wondered if the Rash Disease itself actually has a consciousness, or is under the control of one. And if all the souls of the human and animal bodies subsumed by it are actually still there, still aware, still suffering, along for the ride but helpless to act individually until something breaks that control, like the ray of sunlight in the eyes for Emil's beast-dog, or being separated from the mass of the giant like that poor girl on the train.

[Dilandu]

I have wondered if the Rash Disease itself actually has a consciousness, or is under the control of one. And if all the souls of the human and animal bodies subsumed by it are actually still there, still aware, still suffering, along for the ride but helpless to act individually until something breaks that control, like the ray of sunlight in the eyes for Emil's beast-dog, or being separated from the mass of the giant like that poor girl on the train.

If so, its a pretty... stupid consciousness. Most trolls demonstrate pretty simplistic behavior, not even on the level of mammals. And giants seems to be evless intelligent.

Considering Cthulhund and train-giant head... in both cases brain seems to be relatively intact. With Cthulhund, the remission period was at least several hours long, but actually Cthulhund wasn't very agressive in the beginning. With the head of train-giant, we seems to have at least some partially intelligent reaction, but the observation period was too short to make a conclusion

[Lazy8]

The theory "Mikkel disturbed their resting place and thats why ghosts started to chase him" just didn't feel right. Sleipnope seems to be rational enough to understood that all this intrusion was just incidental and no harm was meant. And, Mikkel wasn't even the first target of their attack; first was Sigrun, who never ever were near fort, and ghosts never actually meet her.

You're missing a couple of details here, though. First of all, the fact that the ghosts left their resting place and started chasing the crew well before they merged into Sleipnope. That happened... well, the earliest thing that could rationally be called an incarnation of Sleipnope was created either during or immediately after the first attack, when Reynir was trying to fend them off and then when Onni swooped in to get them off the crew's backs. Prior to that, the ghosts that Reynir saw creeping up on the tank were a group of individuals, not any sort of legion.

As for Mikkel disturbing their resting place... it does fit with the fact that the animal tracks were all avoiding the place (they knew something bad would happen to them if they went in there). I don't think at that point the ghosts had any sort of collective consciousness - they were just following the tracks of the person who'd disturbed them. We also have it from Minna that who was and wasn't the first target of their attack was a matter of pure luck; Mikkel and Sigrun went down first (and both of them at the same time) because they were in the shadows, where they were vulnerable, whereas Emil and Tuuri were lucky enough to have been in the last remaining patches of sunlight right at that moment, and Reyir was saved by his latent mage powers kicking in.

So, there must be some deeper, more important reason, why a bunch of ghosts started to follow the expedition. It took a lot of efforts for them, after all; after failed attack, Sleipnope looked pretty miserable... actually looked harmed and suffering.

So, we have the rational entity, that considered destruction of expedition important enough to take the risks and suffer for that. And the Sleipnope taunts to Lalli/Reynir seems to be... aimed.

My personal theory is that this chase didn't start out as any deeper more important reason - it was just a bunch of ghosts reacting to someone who'd come into their territory. But I do think it likely that it became a deeper more important reason as time went on and Sleipnope continued to evolve. Onni has stated outright before that ghosts that find themselves unable to move on have a tendency to grow angry, and these particular ghosts could also have been harboring some latent anger over the failed cure and the fact that their caretakers lied to them. They wouldn't necessarily remember what the anger was about, but it would still be there nonetheless.

So then, something living and oblivious wanders into their domain. They're no longer capable of rational thought at this point or of parsing who's actually to blame; the only thing they know is that a living target has ever so conveniently presented itself. So, they follow it. And it leads them to still more convenient targets.

Then, the attack happens, and is thwarted... but it has the effect of merging them into a single legion. As such, this legion begins to acquire the first glimmers of something that they hadn't had before: purpose. It doesn't matter whether this purpose will actually help them or not; it doesn't matter how many times they're thwarted. They have an actual goal now, something to work towards in lieu of the moving on which they've become incapable of doing, and so they pursue it singlemindedly. As they move on, they acquire more minds and their purpose grows sharper; they begin not only to plan but to rationalize. If they must suffer, others must suffer with them.

If so, its a pretty... stupid consciousness. Most trolls demonstrate pretty simplistic behavior, not even on the level of mammals. And giants seems to be evless intelligent.

Considering Cthulhund and train-giant head... in both cases brain seems to be relatively intact. With Cthulhund, the remission period was at least several hours long, but actually Cthulhund wasn't very agressive in the beginning. With the head of train-giant, we seems to have at least some partially intelligent reaction, but the observation period was too short to make a conclusion

That's the issue of thinking of Rash creatures as animals. The thing is, though, Rash creatures aren't animals as we know them. The Rashed are a disease. And what's the singular purpose of a disease? To spread. Thinking from the viewpoint of a pathogen, it's perfectly rational to sacrifice its current host body if it can in turn infect another host which can then go on to spread the disease (and considering that the Rash is at its most virulent in the early stages... there would be plenty of advantage in infecting a new host body as opposed to preserving the old one). There are many, many examples of animals that have been infected with some virus or fungus or parasite acting in ways that are counter to their own survival: ants climbing the tallest blade of grass so they'll get eaten by a cow, mice losing their fear of cats... preservation of the host body isn't important, but propagation of the disease is.

[Purple Wyrm]

My personal theory is that this chase didn't start out as any deeper more important reason - it was just a bunch of ghosts reacting to someone who'd come into their territory. But I do think it likely that it became a deeper more important reason as time went on and Sleipnope continued to evolve. Onni has stated outright before that ghosts that find themselves unable to move on have a tendency to grow angry, and these particular ghosts could also have been harboring some latent anger over the failed cure and the fact that their caretakers lied to them. They wouldn't necessarily remember what the anger was about, but it would still be there nonetheless.

So then, something living and oblivious wanders into their domain. They're no longer capable of rational thought at this point or of parsing who's actually to blame; the only thing they know is that a living target has ever so conveniently presented itself. So, they follow it. And it leads them to still more convenient targets.

Then, the attack happens, and is thwarted... but it has the effect of merging them into a single legion. As such, this legion begins to acquire the first glimmers of something that they hadn't had before: purpose. It doesn't matter whether this purpose will actually help them or not; it doesn't matter how many times they're thwarted. They have an actual goal now, something to work towards in lieu of the moving on which they've become incapable of doing, and so they pursue it singlemindedly. As they move on, they acquire more minds and their purpose grows sharper; they begin not only to plan but to rationalize. If they must suffer, others must suffer with them.

That chimes pretty well with my thoughts as well (way-out theories about Pastor A aside!)

[Dilandu]

You're missing a couple of details here, though. First of all, the fact that the ghosts left their resting place and started chasing the crew well before they merged into Sleipnope. That happened... well, the earliest thing that could rationally be called an incarnation of Sleipnope was created either during or immediately after the first attack, when Reynir was trying to fend them off and then when Onni swooped in to get them off the crew's backs. Prior to that, the ghosts that Reynir saw creeping up on the tank were a group of individuals, not any sort of legion.

Maybe, but Sleipnope at least was rational, you agree? So, even if individual ghosts are irrational, the Sleipnope at least could ask itself "for what reason I'm doing that?" It is not that its actions are simple and cheap; they are costly and painful.

As for Mikkel disturbing their resting place... it does fit with the fact that the animal tracks were all avoiding the place (they knew something bad would happen to them if they went in there).

Yes, but not exactly very far. If murderghosts were actual threat, animals would hardly live around in such numbers. So, id doesn't seems that murderghosts have the habit to run around plotting revenge on squirrels and rabbits before. More likely, animals considered them as sort of landmine; it would kill you if you get too close, but it hardly would chase you around, demanding that you must apologise for stepping on it.

My personal theory is that this chase didn't start out as any deeper more important reason - it was just a bunch of ghosts reacting to someone who'd come into their territory. But I do think it likely that it became a deeper more important reason as time went on and Sleipnope continued to evolve. Onni has stated outright before that ghosts that find themselves unable to move on have a tendency to grow angry, and these particular ghosts could also have been harboring some latent anger over the failed cure and the fact that their caretakers lied to them. They wouldn't necessarily remember what the anger was about, but it would still be there nonetheless.

So then, something living and oblivious wanders into their domain. They're no longer capable of rational thought at this point or of parsing who's actually to blame; the only thing they know is that a living target has ever so conveniently presented itself. So, they follow it. And it leads them to still more convenient targets.

It is... possible explanation, I must admit.

Then, the attack happens, and is thwarted... but it has the effect of merging them into a single legion. As such, this legion begins to acquire the first glimmers of something that they hadn't had before: purpose. It doesn't matter whether this purpose will actually help them or not; it doesn't matter how many times they're thwarted. They have an actual goal now, something to work towards in lieu of the moving on which they've become incapable of doing, and so they pursue it singlemindedly. As they move on, they acquire more minds and their purpose grows sharper; they begin not only to plan but to rationalize. If they must suffer, others must suffer with them.

Here, I disagree. Sleipnope demonstrated the ability to recall past events and communicate DURING the attack, not after that. It was able to actually identify Lalli and even conclude that he became stronger. So, there was logical thinking already active and running here. Again, the whole idea of attack - to use trolls as cannon fodder - required at least some thinking and planning.

The Rashed are a disease. And what's the singular purpose of a disease? To spread. Thinking from the viewpoint of a pathogen, it's perfectly rational to sacrifice its current host body if it can in turn infect another host which can then go on to spread the disease (and considering that the Rash is at its most virulent in the early stages... there would be plenty of advantage in infecting a new host body as opposed to preserving the old one). There are many, many examples of animals that have been infected with some virus or fungus or parasite acting in ways that are counter to their own survival: ants climbing the tallest blade of grass so they'll get eaten by a cow, mice losing their fear of cats... preservation of the host body isn't important, but propagation of the disease is.

Er, no. It would be logical, if not the fact that Rash basically turn the victims immortal. And this is contradiction to the "spread at all cost" strategy; if the disease cared about the host enough to actually form kind of symbiosis with it, then why waste the host so stupidly? This is two different strategies, to ensure the host survival and to maximise the spread.


----------------------------

Hm... it sounds funny, of course, but maybe the murderghosts have some positive effect from simply changing place and doing something productive? They may start their march as blind chase, but during that, they were forced to analyse the situation, make decisions... I.e. they were forced to remeber how to think. New sensor data, after all, new visions of outside world, nore new things to divert attention... less time to just crawl around aimlessly, harbouring old pains.

So, maybe during the chase the murderghosts started to recall being humans?

[JoB]

and that there's no communication between Dark A and Light A

So they'll reunite into Andalf the GrAy?

I'm not sure that Sleipnope have a distinct "central" personality. I always assumed that it is sort "controlled by common agreement", I.e. its actions are the approximation of several personalities similar opinions.

When we were given a glimpse of the various voices within Sleipnope, an important number of them were more concerned about their own deplorable situation than the whole revenge thing. I don't see how they could "agree" on the attack plan with herding trolls and whatnot if the active, scheming one(s) didn't have considerably more weight in the decision process than the Party of Sad.

However, Sleipnope is composed of entities that originated in Copenhagen and followed them there, while Pastor A's arc began on the next island over.

Reynirs first vision of A's church (the ruins version) happened at a time where they just had escaped from Copenhagen. The first time he saw the intact version (which is obviously based on A's own memories of it), the expedition was near Odense, on Fyn. However, that's Reynir we're talking about, the guy who "randomly" walked into Onni's haven after Lalli shooed him out of his ...

Nonetheless, the original murderghosts came from Kastellet and maybe Amalienborg, severing their ties to the mummified bodies as they left. Both places have nearby churches, but none that are a good match for A's.

I've had doubts about it ever since we saw the train giant say "help me" to the very humans it attacked.

Ah, but that (husk of a human) was a broken-away part of the giant, possibly one that hadn't even turned troll before becoming part of it.

... but if it was, it'ld indicate that if you allow a troll to merge into a giant, then split it off again, the result might be that it returns to something way closer to the original human than the reported efforts families made to "heal" their trollified relatives ever succeeded to achieve, as if the RashMind had left the body of one to join the giant's central conscience ... uh oh, I feel a frankensteinification-of-SSSS headcanon coming up ...

[Dilandu]

When we were given a glimpse of the various voices within Sleipnope, an important number of them were more concerned about their own deplorable situation than the whole revenge thing. I don't see how they could "agree" on the attack plan with herding trolls and whatnot if the active, scheming one(s) didn't have considerably more weight in the decision process than the Party of Sad.

That's how democracy works, huh) Peoples vote for decisions 

And without jokes - I suppose, that Sleipnope is controlled by the feelings and thoughts about which all composing ghosts could agree. I.e. they have some common thoughts, common feelings, and those common patterns may result in something like... mental resonance. In other worlds - composing ghosts are thinking about quite a lot of different things, but common thoughts get amplified and served as brain patterns for Sleipnope. Other thoughts did not have the same resonating pattern and thus did not amplyfy enough.

[Lazy8]

Maybe, but Sleipnope at least was rational, you agree? So, even if individual ghosts are irrational, the Sleipnope at least could ask itself "for what reason I'm doing that?" It is not that its actions are simple and cheap; they are costly and painful.

You could, by the same logic, ask why Tuuri kept insisting on running off into the Silent World even though that turned out to be plenty costly and painful for her, and never once asked herself why she wanted to do it so badly. Why do people wrestle alligators, or fly to the moon? "Capable of rational thought" does not necessarily translate into "is always going to behave in a manner conducive to one's own survival". My guess is that chasing the crew gives the ghosts a purpose, and it's better to be destroyed in pursuing that purpose than to be resigned to an eternity of torment unable to move on.

Yes, but not exactly very far. If murderghosts were actual threat, animals would hardly live around in such numbers. So, id doesn't seems that murderghosts have the habit to run around plotting revenge on squirrels and rabbits before. More likely, animals considered them as sort of landmine; it would kill you if you get too close, but it hardly would chase you around, demanding that you must apologise for stepping on it.

That's exactly my point, though - they aren't a threat as long as you don't get too close. It doesn't matter whether a landmine explodes when you step on it or follows you out and drains the life out of you; you're still dead if you disturb it, and okay if you don't. I'm guessing that the animals keeping away is not a learned behavior; they have some sort of instinct that keeps them from getting too close in the first place. Though I will concede that it's likely the ghosts do treat humans and animals differently - if an animal gets too close, they simply drain the life out of it (as we saw happen with Leaftroll), whereas if a human disturbs them... maybe they're reminded of the life they've lost, or some remnants of their anger at how they died, and that's enough to stir them to greater action? That's going to require some thought, and we have very little evidence to work on.

Here, I disagree. Sleipnope demonstrated the ability to recall past events and communicate DURING the attack, not after that. It was able to actually identify Lalli and even conclude that he became stronger. So, there was logical thinking already active and running here. Again, the whole idea of attack - to use trolls as cannon fodder - required at least some thinking and planning.

It wouldn't necessary have to be rational while something was happening to remember something from before it became rational - if that makes any sense? Sleipnope has also acquired many, many different lives and souls since its first incarnation; who's to say its motivations and goals haven't changed over time even if its memory hasn't?

Er, no. It would be logical, if not the fact that Rash basically turn the victims immortal. And this is contradiction to the "spread at all cost" strategy; if the disease cared about the host enough to actually form kind of symbiosis with it, then why waste the host so stupidly? This is two different strategies, to ensure the host survival and to maximise the spread.

But even if its hosts are immortal, it still needs to be able to infect enough hosts in the first place to be able to survive and perpetuate itself. If only one or two people had come down with the Rash in the prologue, it could have been easily contained right from the start, so immortal hosts or not, it's still in the Rash's best interest to infect as many as possible as quickly as possible. That's not necessarily going to change just because the whole world's been infected and it's no longer possible to stamp out all of its hosts; evolution doesn't happen overnight, or even necessarily in 90 years, if there isn't any sort of evolutionary pressure. We've established that the infected aren't behaving logically, ergo they must be acting on instinct - and when you've got a whole infected planet vs. a few isolated surviving communities, that's not exactly going to put on a whole lot of pressure for the instincts to change, and if the virus is settled in its immortal hosts rather than infecting new hosts (i.e. reproducing), that only doubles down on the evolutionary bottleneck in that evolution also requires reproduction.

[Ragnarok]

As of the latest page, shipping has reached sufficient density to undergo gravitational collapse, forming a slash black hole.
I do not find this alarming in the slightest, as I already shipped it.
Your fiction will adapt to service us. We will add your homosexual and heterosexual relationships to our own. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

[Antillanka]

It makes me wonder if, in this different astral plane, all the non-mage dream-havens work like this, letting anybody in, or Emil's was open for Lalli, due to physical closeness or, idk, soulmateness XD

[thorny]

Are they going to be able to understand each other's languages here? or does the language flag indicate that Lalli still can't understand what Emil's saying? -- wait a minute, that's a Finnish flag.

And is the woman who's serving Emil all that lovely food (I would guess that Emil's pretty hungry, not surprising he's dreaming of food) his mother/grandmother/other relative, or a servant? Her body language looks kind of anxious, to me. And Emil, despite the food, looks rather glum.

[Vafhudr]

Nah. Look again. It's swedish. The cross is not white, it's yellow. It's hard to tell on the monitor, I'll grant you that.

Maybe this was just before Emil enlisted.

[thorny]

Oh, you're right. I was seeing the blue as field against a larger white background; but the blue's the background.

-- it might well be right before he enlisted. He looks rather fancily dressed.

[JoB]

wait a minute, that's a Finnish flag.

Umh, nnnoooo ... ? [points to flag cheat sheet right underneath the comic]

Personally, I do not necessarily take the flag as a sign that Lalli won't understand things once Emil/nanny address him. Technically, it was never even stated that mages using the autotranslator do not still have an impression of "that sounds rather [say] Swedish" in spite of understanding every word of it.

[Windfighter]

Nah. Look again. It's swedish. The cross is not white, it's yellow. It's hard to tell on the monitor, I'll grant you that.

Just butting in to say that the finnish flag has a blue cross, not white!