Author Topic: General Discussion Thread  (Read 2425087 times)

Guardian G.I.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16755 on: November 11, 2016, 03:30:18 AM »
There have also been reports of Hillary supporters rioting and attacking Trump supporters over the past days. I hope this won't carry over into the upcoming four years - the last thing everyone needs is political divide leading to extremist unrest and violence, especially in the United States.

I really don't think Trump is going to become the next Hitler or whatever scary stories circulate on the Internet these days. Even if he's as evil as his detractors claim (highly unlikely), he's still on bad terms with many influential figures in the Republican party, so unless he manages to mend his relationship with them, they will make his life hell. It's likely Trump will be forced to stick to the general party line or else we'll see weekly Trump impeachment attempts. Democrats will also obstruct everything the President does, just like the GOP did during the Obama presidency.

In terms of foreign policy, I think we've managed to dodge the bullet - Hillary's course towards open conflict with Russia was really dangerous. Trump creating a Russo-American alliance with Putin will still be impossible, though, for reasons described above. Besides, there are no guarantees they won't fall out with each other after getting down to business.
Although in my opinion, Trump will support creating a unified EU army - it's in line with his views on NATO and American military commitments abroad... unless he delegates (or is forced to delegate) his foreign policy to someone else in the GOP. Then it'll be more of the same.

Unrelated funny thing: everyone were so confident about Hillary that newspaper and magazine issues celebrating her victory were printed and shipped in advance.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 03:38:30 AM by Guardian G.I. »
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Sc0ut

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16756 on: November 11, 2016, 03:57:35 AM »
Guardian G.I., it's not "funny" that people were sure Hilary would win. Most people who voted, voted for her. In my country and some others, this would have made her president. That she didn't win is due to particularities of the US election system, not the will of the majority.

Trump doesn't need to become the next Hitler to make life much worse for a few select categories of people (immigrants, muslims, lgbt+ people, women of reproductive age etc). If you think that's not important well... it sure must be nice to be a straight white guy and have the comfort to ignore all that if you so choose. Climate change however will screw everyone over (internationally), and Trump is a global warming denier, so maybe you are at least interested in that.

Hilary was far from a perfect option, no less for her aggressive war policy as you mentioned. But believing Trump is better is mind-blowing to me. Even if you only care for your own interest, there is nothing that proves this man has any shred of principles, self-restraint or logic in that orange head. There's absolutely nothing that recommends him as a president or even a barely above average human being. Sure he's a rich businessman, but that's easy to do when you're born into money, which he was.

Aand I think that's plenty of political discourse for this forum, I'll shut up now. Just had to get this out.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 03:59:55 AM by Sc0ut »

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16757 on: November 11, 2016, 04:36:17 AM »
Guardian G.I., it's not "funny" that people were sure Hilary would win. Most people who voted, voted for her. In my country and some others, this would have made her president. That she didn't win is due to particularities of the US election system, not the will of the majority.

Trump doesn't need to become the next Hitler to make life much worse for a few select categories of people (immigrants, muslims, lgbt+ people, women of reproductive age etc). If you think that's not important well... it sure must be nice to be a straight white guy and have the comfort to ignore all that if you so choose. Climate change however will screw everyone over (internationally), and Trump is a global warming denier, so maybe you are at least interested in that.

Hilary was far from a perfect option, no less for her aggressive war policy as you mentioned. But believing Trump is better is mind-blowing to me. Even if you only care for your own interest, there is nothing that proves this man has any shred of principles, self-restraint or logic in that orange head. There's absolutely nothing that recommends him as a president or even a barely above average human being. Sure he's a rich businessman, but that's easy to do when you're born into money, which he was.

Aand I think that's plenty of political discourse for this forum, I'll shut up now. Just had to get this out.

Let's not associate the anti-Trump movement with white-shaming. Half of my family is white and voted Hillary and were just as damned horrified as the Latino half. Yeah, lots of white people voted for him. Lots more did not and are distraught for friends and family whose ethnicity and beliefs will put targets on their backs. This vote was a problem stemming from racism, but that doesn't mean that every white American is a racist.
The white Americans aren't going to have this easy entirely, either. While they won't have to be worried about being attacked on the streets as much as other groups, their healthcare will suffer, their daughters and mothers will be cut off from abortions and their LBGTQ friends and family will suffer. Their disabled family and friends will suffer. Not even the 'straight white trump-supporting male' is going to get away unscathed because Trump is going to hit the economy like food poisoning hits the digestive system. Everyone will feel it.

What we need to do now is recognise that America is a nation divided. Rather than strengthening those divides, we need to repair them. For now people should protect each other. Walk your Muslim friends to and from their places of work. Call in on your LGBTQ friends to make sure they're doing ok. Offer a smile to someone, anyone, who looks really down-cast. Education about acceptance is going to be the way to beat Trump, not pointing fingers and shouting blame.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16758 on: November 11, 2016, 04:41:04 AM »
That she didn't win is due to particularities of the US election system, not the will of the majority.
I agree, but I should note it's not as bad as the election of 2000. Trump wasn't given the presidency by SCOTUS after irregularities in a single state like Bush II.

Trump doesn't need to become the next Hitler to make life much worse for a few select categories of people (immigrants, muslims, lgbt+ people, women of reproductive age etc). If you think that's not important well... it sure must be nice to be a straight white guy and have the comfort to ignore all that if you so choose. Climate change however will screw everyone over (internationally), and Trump is a global warming denier, so maybe you are at least interested in that.
Concerning minorities: I think it's unlikely Trump, Pence or the rest of GOP in Congress will explicitly and deliberately go against them and their rights. This election showed the majority of American media is pro-Democratic, and their opinion of Trump is very hostile. Everyone and their dog will be screaming bloody murder the moment GOP appears to plan to do something (bad) - too much trouble even if you're a fanatical Christian like Pence. I bet Trump simply doesn't care about them. 

There are still local administrations though, but it is really the fault of Trump if some local politicians go against the minorities? He isn't appointing them personally, after all. People will surely accuse him and his supporters of "legitimizing discrimination" or something like that, though, like the White House micromanages the entire country.

We'll see how things go with climate change - I'm pretty sceptical about whether he'll follow many of his promises or not. Also, using "you're a straight white male" arguments in a discussion isn't a good thing. What if I'm not one, for starters?

Hilary was far from a perfect option, no less for her aggressive war policy as you mentioned. But believing Trump is better is mind-blowing to me. Even if you only care for your own interest, there is nothing that proves this man has any shred of principles, self-restraint or logic in that orange head. There's absolutely nothing that recommends him as a president or even a barely above average human being. Sure he's a rich businessman, but that's easy to do when you're born into money, which he was.
I'm not thinking Trump is better - I'm actually ambivalent about him. But I think his Cabinet and his inner circle will matter more in the next 4 years. I'm more concerned about who'll he pick for important posts, and it seems they'll be Bush Jr.'s people or similar.

And as I've said before, time will tell. Let's discuss this after his 100 days in office, shall we?
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16759 on: November 11, 2016, 04:46:21 AM »
OwlsG0, I have no idea how you read white shaming into that. Some of my closest friends, and people who I know only from a distance but admire, are white Americans who voted against Trump. What I meant is that the only people who can choose to hand-wave social issues aside as "unimportant" are straight, white, cis males from a Christian background. I do see many of them doing exactly that in political discussions every day. I also see those of them who choose to care about others too, and I'm grateful. Not generalizing here.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16760 on: November 11, 2016, 04:58:43 AM »
OwlsG0, I have no idea how you read white shaming into that. Some of my closest friends, and people who I know only from a distance but admire, are white Americans who voted against Trump. What I meant is that the only people who can choose to hand-wave social issues aside as "unimportant" are straight, white, cis males from a Christian background. I do see many of them doing exactly that in political discussions every day. I also see those of them who choose to care about others too, and I'm grateful. Not generalizing here.

Just mainly because you said 'straight white male' and I guess I assumed that you were generalising them all as Trump supporters? Tensions running high in my head, sorry about that
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16761 on: November 11, 2016, 12:27:17 PM »
Just mainly because you said 'straight white male' and I guess I assumed that you were generalising them all as Trump supporters? Tensions running high in my head, sorry about that

Straight white male here.  So NOT a Trump supporter.  So *never* a Trump supporter.

(But, again, in the NYC area we've known Trump for what he is for a long, long time)
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16762 on: November 11, 2016, 05:27:37 PM »
I don't think these people were "caused" by Trump. From my experience of living in the South, I think they already existed in our country before Trump ever thought of even running for office, with those views and tendencies, and now feel empowered by the results of the election.
Precisely. These things do not happen because a president Trump or the GOP will make them happen, they happen because people heard the same thinking from candidate Trump and saw him win. And even if president-elect Trump were to stand up and say that he totally does not endorse any of that, the people in question would know perfectly well that it was the candidate's statements that won the votes.

That's one of the dangers of running for an office the populist way: You're telling people that their opinion, free of finer political arts like making compromises with others, can, should, and will be the guideline for that office in the upcoming term. No big wonder that they expect you to deliver when you get elected. Or at least not stand in their way of taking what they've been implicitly promised. No matter what percentage of the votes that got you into the office were actually due to that kind of agreement.

Normally, I'ld follow that up by saying something along the lines of "president Trump wouldn't be the first to drum up a movement that has him swept aside and replaced as soon as it picks up more momentum than he ever wanted" - but for all the things I think the U.S. election system could improve, it's not that easy to get rid of a POTUS you just aren't all too happy about anymore.
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Róisín

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16763 on: November 11, 2016, 10:23:54 PM »
Job, well said! The world is hard enough without us folk hating on each other, and we're all different, each with our own beliefs, hopes, dreams and aspirations. Only time will tell how this turns out; we can only wait and see. Yes, those of us who have lived through such times before, or who know our history, are worried and afraid. But all we can do is hope for a good outcome, and that enough of the social infrastructure of the USA we knew remains to carry them through this.

Hopefully, by the time the next election cycle rolls around, if it does, this will allow time and experience enough to motivate the 50% - yes, 50% - of American voters who didn't vote this time to do so. And perhaps hammer home the lesson that elections are about choosing the CEO for your country for the next four years, not about 'teaching the government a lesson'.

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thorny

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16764 on: November 11, 2016, 11:35:46 PM »
Whew. Decided to check this thread after a winter farmers' market and am too worn out to probably say or phrase properly all the things that come to mind. But rapidly:

First of all: Jethan, I've got at least one friend who favored Trump, and I strongly suspect a couple of family members. She's still my friend. They're still my family. They didn't favor Trump because they're horrible people -- they're not -- or because they're white supremacists -- they're not. They only wanted, as you say, "to give Washington D.C. a great big kick in the pants".

Having said that: I am very afraid that that kick in the pants is going to land not on Washington DC, but on the country as a whole; and very hard and unfairly on some people in it.

No, it is not in most areas dangerous to step outside one's door, whoever one voted for, and even if one happens to be female, black, immigrant, and Muslim. Want to feel a little better about the country? Go look over here:
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/11/10/501468031/somali-refugee-makes-history-in-u-s-election

That is also the USA.

And not only did Clinton win the popular vote: but while some Trump supporters are certainly white supremacists, a lot of the people who voted for Trump did so because they genuinely don't think he's dangerous: because they think this is the USA of House District 60B in southeast Minneapolis, and so they think of course it's safe to vote for Trump, because comparisons to Weimar can't possibly be accurate, because Things Like That Can't Happen Here.

But, again, having said that: a part of the reason that Things Like That happened in Germany was precisely because so many people thought they couldn't happen there. The lesson of WWII Germany isn't that there's something essentially terrible about Germany, or that there was something extraordinary and unreplicable about Hitler. The lesson is that if what happened there could happen there, it could happen anywhere. One reason there were so many Jews in Germany in the first place is that for many years prior to the 1930's Germany had been one of the best and safest places in the world to be Jewish.

I don't think Trump is a Nazi. I think Trump is an opportunist. And the opportunity he saw was to ramp up fear and hatred in order to get himself votes. But the results may -- or may not -- be similar.

The USA has survived a whole lot of things; and is likely, if not certain, to also survive Trump. But I am very worried nevertheless. Even if the Democrats manage to take back the legislative branch in two years, a whole lot of damage can be done in two years, and some of it may be irreparable. There have indeed been acts of violence. There are people afraid to go out of their doors. There are people afraid to use a public bathroom. There may well be people who lose their health insurance, and have their health ruined or even lose their lives as a result (yes, the hospital will treat you in an emergency even if you can't pay -- and try to bill you later -- but letting things go to the emergency point does not always lead to good outcomes.) And there may be massive environmental damage done over the course of even two years, some of which we have no idea how to repair, and some of which there may be no repairing.

There is a very thin chance that this isn't over; though it's an extremely thin chance, and even if it came through the repurcussions might also be hugely damaging. The vote of the Electoral College has for most of USA history been pure formality. But there is in fact nothing in law that says the electors can't hand the election to Clinton instead, whether on the grounds that she won the popular vote (and by a significant number of votes), or on the grounds that Trump is just plain too dangerous to let him take over: the Constitution says that the electors vote, but it does not say that they have to vote as instructed by their states; originally, they were supposed to make up their own minds. What there is, however, is a whole lot of precedent: the popular vote and the Electoral College vote as instructed by the individual states have differed before, and every time the College voted as instructed, or close enough as to make no difference; there's been an occasional "faithless elector", for one reason or another, but never enough to swing an election. And what would be needed in this case is quite a few faithless electors -- almost certainly more than the difference in electoral votes, because if Clinton supporters from states that voted for Trump start violating their instructions, there's nothing to stop Trump supporters from states that voted for Clinton doing the same thing.

If the Electoral College did vote for Clinton instead, there'd be a huge uproar, and a crisis in belief in the functioning of the government as a whole, as well as very likely a crisis in the streets. There are some who think it might be worth it; but whether there are any significant number of electoral college members among them, I have no idea.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16765 on: November 12, 2016, 02:20:50 AM »
thorny, that is a most excellent summary. Thank you.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16766 on: November 12, 2016, 07:24:07 PM »
I find the 'controversy' surrounding Barron Trump to be at once hilarious and sad, both because it exists and is a sign of just how far gone the American news industry is.

Sweet Mobius One's orange helmet, people, it's almost like he's ten and it was three in the morning. When I was that age, you couldn't have gotten me to stay up that late unless you paid me in hundreds to do it.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16767 on: November 12, 2016, 08:45:22 PM »
Thank you, Vi, I think you summed everything up beautifully.
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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16768 on: November 12, 2016, 08:47:25 PM »
Well, you could always subscribe to the New York Times. That seems to be the last bastion of a free press, and the last refuge of that endangered species, the investigative journalist. So far they don't seem to be just quoting facebook posts, publishing press releases or making it up out of whole cloth, as most news services are doing.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: General Discussion Thread
« Reply #16769 on: November 13, 2016, 04:08:50 AM »
To (hopefully) conclude the politics discussion here:

Very unsurprisingly, President-elect Trump has flip-flopped (again) - he's reversing his position on Obamacare, for example, and his campaign has reportedly removed any mentions of Muslim immigration ban and abortion restrictions from his website. At this rate, he'll soon forget everything he said about The Wall™.

It seems that business will be as usual. That's both a good and bad thing, because that means Trump may stick to default aggressive (Republican) stance in his foreign policy... but from what I've seen over the past years, both Republicans and Democrats are absolutely the same in that regard.

An America less focused on world police adventures and more focused on strengthening its economy would be a good thing for everyone, though. Too bad it's a pipe dream.
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