Author Topic: Character Development: Emil  (Read 52942 times)

Solovei

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2014, 01:21:53 PM »
Most of his "Jerk" attitude might be "This is what people percieve as cool and in control right?" instead of just insecurity.

Well, not might be, Is. I know ive been in those shoes before.
I definitely agree! Given how obsessed he seems to be with making the right impression on people, it's entirely possible that a lot of what he does is trying to act like a cool, knowledgeable guy without anything to really back that up.
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Sunflower

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2014, 01:50:53 PM »
I definitely agree! Given how obsessed he seems to be with making the right impression on people, it's entirely possible that a lot of what he does is trying to act like a cool, knowledgeable guy without anything to really back that up.

Yep.  Compare Emil's showing Tuuri the sights of Mora in Chapter 2, vs. explaining to her how hard Danish is to understand.  The first was adorable because he knew his stuff (like the little Dala horse figurines) and seemed perfectly happy to play tour guide for hours. 

In the second case, he was trying to extrapolate from too little knowledge, and that's when he put his foot (or rather, fist) in his mouth.  At least he had the decency to be embarrassed when he got caught doing his Danish impression...

Generally, when he thinks he has to impress people, or is out of his depth, is when he gets in trouble. 
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2014, 02:01:38 PM »
Yep.  Compare Emil's showing Tuuri the sights of Mora in Chapter 2, vs. explaining to her how hard Danish is to understand.
[...]
In the second case, he was trying to extrapolate from too little knowledge

Actually... XD
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hushpiper

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2014, 04:20:13 PM »
Yep.  Compare Emil's showing Tuuri the sights of Mora in Chapter 2, vs. explaining to her how hard Danish is to understand.  The first was adorable because he knew his stuff (like the little Dala horse figurines) and seemed perfectly happy to play tour guide for hours. 

In the second case, he was trying to extrapolate from too little knowledge, and that's when he put his foot (or rather, fist) in his mouth.  At least he had the decency to be embarrassed when he got caught doing his Danish impression...

Generally, when he thinks he has to impress people, or is out of his depth, is when he gets in trouble.

I agree on that last bit--he especially gets in trouble when he's thinking too much about what he looks like to other people, which is a lot of the time. (And part of why he seems to be mellowing out a bit as he gets to know everybody, imo.) But I'm gonna go with SeaAngel on the other bit: while he was unintentionally rude in explaining the Danish language barrier to Tuuri, their exchange on p182 seems to show that he was absolutely correct. And this is Tuuri talking: unlike Emil, she has a great ear for languages.

Actually, now I think of it, we've seen plenty of social faux pas from him, but have we ever actually seen him give inaccurate information? Other than the stuff about his backstory, that's subjective. All the stuff he said on the train to Mora was correct as far as we know, as was (presumably) the stuff he was telling Tuuri in Mora. Was there anything else? I just can't think of any time when he's actually run his mouth off about something he knows nothing about. Actually, in hindsight he seems relatively willing to volunteer information about what he doesn't know: can't read/speak Icelandic, only heard Danish in recordings... *runs off to read through again*

ETA: No wait, I thought of one: his "I forgot you don't have electricity in your country" to Tuuri on p114. *snorts* Although to be fair, he was half right there: the Finns have electricity, but definitely not enough to power an electric fence like the one they're talking about.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 05:24:09 PM by hushpiper »

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2014, 04:26:50 PM »
This might be a better fit for "Scenes We'd Like to See," but I thought it had some hilarious perspective on Emil's thought processes.

On p. 220, when Emil is gazing out the window along with Tuuri:


Solovei
Is it just me, or does Emil look a little... concerned?

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His face is so neutral, he could be thinking practically anything!

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*pines for the fjords*

"There's a dead bug on the windshield. Once, he was my friend. Farewell Samsa, I hardly knew ye."

"The Norwegian troll lady is attempting to make me go to bed so she can cut my hair off while I sleep. Maybe if I stand very still and don't make eye contact, she'll give up and go away..."

"Fire's good. I like fire. Fire is my friend. Fire, meet explosions. You're gonna get along great. This is a pretty landscape. It'd be much prettier if it were burning though."

"I could kill for some fried chicken right about now."


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This is an exact, in-canon transcription of Emil's thought flow here and no one can convince me otherwise.
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hushpiper

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2014, 04:34:11 AM »
I was about to pounce upon some poor unsuspecting commenter in disqus with this minor rant, but decided it's better suited for here:

I'm not quite sure how the idea that Emil's teachers uniformly praised him regardless of merit actually got so well-entrenched. It was never spelled out that way in the comic, and it's not at all necessary to explain... well, anything about him. Here's an alternate explanation:

Emil--like any reasonably-intelligent kid with genuine interest in academics and the undivided attention and resources of his teachers--learned quickly and did well in his studies. However, his parents didn't feel that it was necessary for his learning to follow a practical or rigorous path, and instructed his tutors to let him learn whatever interested him. (They might have been that particular sort of rich parents who use tutors as babysitters for their children, but this is pure speculation on my part.) This gave him a very uneven knowledge-base: he knows a lot of very in-depth stuff about a handful of topics that interest him, but has massive gaps in his knowledge, including things others would consider absolutely basic--like speaking Icelandic. (Languages, apparently, were not at all interesting to Emil.)

This was all good and well while it lasted. Emil was happy learning the things he was interested in, the tutors were getting paid and were probably pleased to have an enthusiastic pupil, even if he was a fussy little prince sometimes most of the time pretty much always. Emil, remember, fully intended to spend the rest of his life as an academic: he was comfortable, he clearly wasn't bored, he enjoyed study and research enough that he identifies himself to Tuuri as "primarily a braniac". And then the money ran out, and the tutors with it.

So he went to university, and he ran into the same problems that many very bright homeschooled kids encounter in the same situation: suddenly he has to adjust to learning by completely different rules. Instead of having his teacher's full attention, he's one kid out of a whole classroom; he has to learn to heavily-structured, arbitrary standards rather than simply demonstrating to the teacher that he's learned the material; he has to learn at someone else's pace, which he's never had to cope with before; and for possibly the first time, he has to learn about topics that he simply doesn't find interesting. Prior to this he's been bookish, socially isolated, and didn't have a lot of friends (or any), but has now been uprooted from his family's quiet mountain home and dropped--apparently alone--in the middle of the world's largest city. And to make matters even worse, at the same time all this is happening, he's also dealing with the entirety of his life and future falling completely to pieces: his lifestyle has to have changed dramatically with no money around to sustain it, the entire foundation his life was based on is completely gone, and his future is uncertain.

There is simply no way that he could've succeeded academically in that situation, given his background and the sort of person he is--and the kind of stress he was under. So he floundered, and he puffed himself up as he does in uncertain situations, and ended up just making it worse until it became so intolerable that joining the cleansers seemed like a reasonable idea.


P.S. FWIW, I don't buy the theory that Emil's parents were overbearingly attentive or smothering. If they were, wouldn't you think we'd hear something about their thoughts on, oh, their darling boy signing up for the branch of the military so hazardous it invalidates your life insurance? Couldn't we reasonably expect to hear something pained from Torbjorn about how his relationship with Emil's dad--his brother, presumably--has been strained ever since he found out about Torbjorn coercing his only son into going on a suicidal mission into monster territory? But no, not a thing. In my opinion, either Emil's parents are a particular combination of impractical and flighty that means they'd take the first excuse to not worry about any of it, or Emil's pulled a Hannu and has as little contact with his parents as he can manage--up to and including lying and hiding things from them to keep them off his back. I'm leaning to the former.

OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2014, 05:09:26 AM »
Awesome points Hushpiper :3
Just one thing though, Emil would have been 16/17 when he quit the education system to join the cleansers, and I thought that might've been a bit (conventionally) young for university, (plus, University would probably cost money, maybe...or at least cost more than the Västerströms could pay for [unless there's a scholarship thing]) but that's about the right age to be thrown into the deep end of a free public high school or college. But then, *contradicts self* that wouldn't explain how Emil missed out on language classes as apparently Tuuri mentioned that Icelandic is compulsory in schools....so it may have been university like you said...
(Heh, this has just turned into me thinking aloud and going around in a circle X'D don't mind me...)
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2014, 06:51:36 AM »
Emil--like any reasonably-intelligent kid with genuine interest in academics and the undivided attention and resources of his teachers--learned quickly and did well in his studies.

You forget :P Emil is the kind of person who thought it was impossible to get bruised on YOUR FACE. The sentece "reasonably-intelligent kid" flies right out of the window XD
Plus his conversations with his aunt and uncle and the way they treat him imply that he makes a lot of stupid mistakes very often.

P.S. FWIW, I don't buy the theory that Emil's parents were overbearingly attentive or smothering. If they were, wouldn't you think we'd hear something about their thoughts on, oh, their darling boy signing up for the branch of the military so hazardous it invalidates your life insurance? Couldn't we reasonably expect to hear something pained from Torbjorn about how his relationship with Emil's dad--his brother, presumably--has been strained ever since he found out about Torbjorn coercing his only son into going on a suicidal mission into monster territory? But no, not a thing. In my opinion, either Emil's parents are a particular combination of impractical and flighty that means they'd take the first excuse to not worry about any of it, or Emil's pulled a Hannu and has as little contact with his parents as he can manage--up to and including lying and hiding things from them to keep them off his back. I'm leaning to the former.
They may not have meen overbearingly attentive, but they still might have coddled him. "Our son is the best, even if we hardly spent any time with him. Allow him to do whatever he wishes!" Or: "Our son HAS to succeed, so MAKE SURE he'll get the best grades or you're fired!" Or even: "We don't give a sh*t about our son, let's just pay someone to tutor him and if his grades aren't good we'll just get another tutor."
However, I have a feeling his parents didn't get to say much. For once, he was already a soldier and was bount to go to the front lines. In contrast with Tuuri, who was safe in the town, and Lalli, who had a relatively simple job of scouting a familiar area again and again and again, Emil's job would be extremely risky either way (yeah, it's even more risky now, but anyways).
Also, there is always the possibility that the parents simply aren't around any more. Else, it would be quite possible that Emil would say to his uncle to regularly talk to his dad and give him news or whatever.
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OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2014, 07:30:41 AM »
You forget :P Emil is the kind of person who thought it was impossible to get bruised on YOUR FACE. The sentece "reasonably-intelligent kid" flies right out of the window XD
Plus his conversations with his aunt and uncle and the way they treat him imply that he makes a lot of stupid mistakes very often.
They may not have meen overbearingly attentive, but they still might have coddled him. "Our son is the best, even if we hardly spent any time with him. Allow him to do whatever he wishes!" Or: "Our son HAS to succeed, so MAKE SURE he'll get the best grades or you're fired!" Or even: "We don't give a sh*t about our son, let's just pay someone to tutor him and if his grades aren't good we'll just get another tutor."
However, I have a feeling his parents didn't get to say much. For once, he was already a soldier and was bount to go to the front lines. In contrast with Tuuri, who was safe in the town, and Lalli, who had a relatively simple job of scouting a familiar area again and again and again, Emil's job would be extremely risky either way (yeah, it's even more risky now, but anyways).
Also, there is always the possibility that the parents simply aren't around any more. Else, it would be quite possible that Emil would say to his uncle to regularly talk to his dad and give him news or whatever.
Hmmm! Wild sleepy theory here: what if the parents' non-presence is connected to the family's financial catastrophe? (I'm imagining Emil's parents taking all the wealth and making a run for it X'P but I'm kind of sleep-deprived...)
I can't remember if this has been mentioned (I should go back and re read to be sure, but I'm so tired I'll do it tomorrow and delete the post if it's irreverent. Shame on me) but wasn't there some history of gambling in the family? From Old Grandpa Västerström in the prologue at least. Maybe that's involved? Maybe.
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SeaAngel

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2014, 07:41:45 AM »
Hmmm! Wild sleepy theory here: what if the parents' non-presence is connected to the family's financial catastrophe? (I'm imagining Emil's parents taking all the wealth and making a run for it X'P but I'm kind of sleep-deprived...)
I can't remember if this has been mentioned (I should go back and re read to be sure, but I'm so tired I'll do it tomorrow and delete the post if it's irreverent. Shame on me) but wasn't there some history of gambling in the family? From Old Grandpa Västerström in the prologue at least. Maybe that's involved? Maybe.

OOOOOOOOOH YOU ARE RIGHT. This must be it! They gambled all their money away!! Even their cousins' money! Shooot!
I wonder what Emil's parents did after that, though. Committed suicide? Ran away? Went in prison? Were forced to *gasp* work?
I wonder how they got the money in the first place. Did they sell the original car? Or gambled and actually won?
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OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2014, 07:55:30 AM »
OOOOOOOOOH YOU ARE RIGHT. This must be it! They gambled all their money away!! Even their cousins' money! Shooot!
I wonder what Emil's parents did after that, though. Committed suicide? Ran away? Went in prison? Were forced to *gasp* work?
I wonder how they got the money in the first place. Did they sell the original car? Or gambled and actually won?
Hehe maybe a family fortune from a lot of gambling flukes, because the grandparent-gamblers didn't really know anything about the sports they were betting on :P
I'd like to think the parents ran away with a suitcase of money to some far away place, never to be seen again o___o I'd like to think they ran away to a tropical island but....this is SSSS... ;P
Probably they're just too embarrassed by their sudden descent into peasantry (whyever that may be) that they've become recluses in their own house, hiding away selling the heirlooms in the hope that things will go back to normal and they can hold soirées again ;)
I hope they're not cold people, but to me it feels like Emil either doesn't regard them very highly, (he never mentions them in any way that I can recall) or he didn't have a lot of interaction with them?
It's a mystery...
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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2014, 08:09:56 AM »
Hehe maybe a family fortune from a lot of gambling flukes, because the grandparent-gamblers didn't really know anything about the sports they were betting on :P
I'd like to think the parents ran away with a suitcase of money to some far away place, never to be seen again o___o I'd like to think they ran away to a tropical island but....this is SSSS... ;P
Probably they're just too embarrassed by their sudden descent into peasantry (whyever that may be) that they've become recluses in their own house, hiding away selling the heirlooms in the hope that things will go back to normal and they can hold soirées again ;)
I hope they're not cold people, but to me it feels like Emil either doesn't regard them very highly, (he never mentions them in any way that I can recall) or he didn't have a lot of interaction with them?
It's a mystery...

I was thinking that his parents would be embarrassed by their loss and became recluses, too. They're probably not cold people - they might be very shallow though. Emil has a shallow nature, but he also seems to try not to be so shallow - like he has some knowledge of morals. I assumed that Emil's shallowness was because of the shallowness of his parents, that it was something Emil was just exposed to growing up, and can't help but be a little offensive sometimes because he grew up around people who were shallow and judgmental.
Also, I always hear that rich people's children have less contact with their parents than average children who go to public school because they'll just be thrown with a tutor or a nanny (when they're young), leaving the parents to do what they please. I think Emil just never had a lot of contact with his parents. (And maybe he'd be more shallow and offensive had he spent more time with them...? I dunno.)


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JoB

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2014, 09:40:12 AM »
I'm not quite sure how the idea that Emil's teachers uniformly praised him regardless of merit actually got so well-entrenched. It was never spelled out that way in the comic, and it's not at all necessary to explain... well, anything about him. Here's an alternate explanation: [...]
*shrug* So they weren't flat out lying to Emil's face about how great a pupil he is, but simply didn't do their job (because even if they all agreed that Emil was going to be a scholar for the rest of his life, it'ld still be virtually mandatory to put Icelandic language into his curriculum so that he can even communicate with his peers-to-be other than in a one-on-one-and-please-use-my-language fashion, and when it comes to learning languages, there's a substantial penalty for delaying it). Can't say that that makes me think that much better of them.
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hushpiper

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2014, 03:04:06 PM »
[Questions about "university".]

Honestly when I said "university" I wasn't meaning university in modern terms, I just meant "whatever school he went to". I mean, we don't even know whether Sweden has compulsory schooling at all, much less a public school system like we have now. My assumption was that everybody who does go to school learns the same subjects regardless of age or level of previous knowledge--they just dump them all into a lecture hall together. Emil would've been the oldest kid in most of his classes, and would've been way ahead of the class (and bored) in some but way behind the class (and drowning) in others. But again, that's just my assumptions, there's no hard info about it in the comic that I recall.

You forget :P Emil is the kind of person who thought it was impossible to get bruised on YOUR FACE. The sentece "reasonably-intelligent kid" flies right out of the window XD
Plus his conversations with his aunt and uncle and the way they treat him imply that he makes a lot of stupid mistakes very often.
They may not have meen overbearingly attentive, but they still might have coddled him. "Our son is the best, even if we hardly spent any time with him. Allow him to do whatever he wishes!" Or: "Our son HAS to succeed, so MAKE SURE he'll get the best grades or you're fired!" Or even: "We don't give a sh*t about our son, let's just pay someone to tutor him and if his grades aren't good we'll just get another tutor." [...]

*snort* I'm talking "reasonably-intelligent" in terms of actual intelligence--I didn't say he has the slightest bit of common sense, because he clearly does not. In terms of intelligence I've got him pegged for slightly above average: he's clearly quite articulate in his native Swedish, and demonstrates a broad vocabulary and an ability to retain a lot of random information (as when he's playing tour guide for Tuuri). Plus he enjoys reading and academics, which is not something you enjoy if you aren't good at it. He's not near as bright a spark as, say, Tuuri, but he can keep up.

And oh yes, I've no doubt that his parents coddled him in one way or another--and all of the examples you gave would fit with Emil's personality and the very little we know about his parents. They just strike me as... hmm. Peculiarly neglectful. The two can--and often do--go together.

I was thinking that his parents would be embarrassed by their loss and became recluses, too. They're probably not cold people - they might be very shallow though. Emil has a shallow nature, but he also seems to try not to be so shallow - like he has some knowledge of morals. I assumed that Emil's shallowness was because of the shallowness of his parents, that it was something Emil was just exposed to growing up, and can't help but be a little offensive sometimes because he grew up around people who were shallow and judgmental.
Also, I always hear that rich people's children have less contact with their parents than average children who go to public school because they'll just be thrown with a tutor or a nanny (when they're young), leaving the parents to do what they please. I think Emil just never had a lot of contact with his parents. (And maybe he'd be more shallow and offensive had he spent more time with them...? I dunno.)

This is more or less what I was thinking. I live in an area with an embarrassing amount of embarrassingly rich people in it, and many of them are excellent parents--but those who aren't tend to be bad parents in particular ways. One of the most common of which is assuming that you can have a perfect fairy-tale parenting experience without all the bad parts if you just throw enough money at it.

FWIW, my impression (based on nothing canonical and subject to change) of Emil's parents is that they were probably warm and cheerful toward Emil when they were around. But they were terribly impractical and somewhat immature people, and they didn't want to deal with the nitty-gritty of raising a child. They had their own lives, and those lives just... didn't include being parents to their son. Or helping him through the hard times in his life or the various bumps and scrapes of growing up. It was so much easier to just give him things and enjoy his excitement--and leave him be the rest of the time. They couldn't buy him friends and companions, of course, so when he showed an interest in books and science they jumped on it and got him a tutor. My assumption is that Emil feels warm but ambiguous towards them--and avoids them wherever he can, without quite knowing why. He'll never say a negative word about them, or allow anyone else to do so while he's around, but if he's in trouble? He'll scramble to make sure he doesn't have to get them involved. He'll go to his aunt and uncle (which he would hate) for help before he so much as tells his parents what's going on.

(Alternatively, instead of keeping them at arm's length, he is still trying to reach out to them and they are still just not really responding, and he's hiding it where he hides all negative emotions--behind a wall of haughty arrogance. While throwing himself into one suicidally dangerous situation after another in an attempt to get them to pay attention. But that just makes my soul want to shrivel up and die, so I'm not going with that one. o_o)

*shrug* So they weren't flat out lying to Emil's face about how great a pupil he is, but simply didn't do their job (because even if they all agreed that Emil was going to be a scholar for the rest of his life, it'ld still be virtually mandatory to put Icelandic language into his curriculum so that he can even communicate with his peers-to-be other than in a one-on-one-and-please-use-my-language fashion, and when it comes to learning languages, there's a substantial penalty for delaying it). Can't say that that makes me think that much better of them.

Oh agreed, somewhere along the line one or more of the adults in his life were really not doing their job--his parents, his tutors, or both. There's really no excuse for not teaching Icelandic to a kid who wants to be an academic in this world ffs! (And to me this comes down to his parents more than his tutors--hence my speculation about them above. Either they actively instructed the tutors to only teach him what keeps him happy, thus crippling him for real-world work as an academic, or the tutors were shirking their duty and his parents didn't pay enough attention to notice. Whichever it is, it says nothing good about their parenting skills.) What I really take issue with is the idea that this is somehow Emil's fault, or that the whole thing indicates that he's dumb, not as smart as he thinks he is, or used to receiving praise no matter what he does. None of that actually appears to be the case.

OrigamiOwl

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Re: Character Development: Emil
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2014, 04:47:55 PM »
(I wanna quote bits of that ^ hushpiper but it would kill my phone)
I agree.
I think that in relation to the tutoring they may have just been teaching him what he wanted to learn, probably with the intention that he won't need anything truly useful because 'he's a Västerström, he'll never actually do anything besides being rich' you know? He was maybe tutored with the [the tutor's] supposed knowledge that he was never going to put his learning to practical use, and instead only use it as fodder for polite dinner conversation etc?
Discovering/realizing that may be why his new goal in life was as drastic as the Cleansers?
/babble

On another subject: if Emil really was quite talented at his specific studies, (he does tend to tell the truth as though he was lying, so we can't be too sure ;P) I wonder what they actually were??
We know languages are out, and anything that involves exercise (so I'll sadly cross off "interpretive dance" ;D but formal dancing might've been taught?)
Perhaps he studied different texts to the main curriculum?
Is he secretly a water-colour-wizard? Art theory expert? Musician? (That would be great at dinner parties?)  hmmmm
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:50:02 PM by OrigamiOwl »
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