Author Topic: Character Development: Lalli  (Read 78990 times)

Noodles

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #225 on: December 28, 2015, 01:38:45 AM »
Aliax, you said a lot of things that I'd been meaning to. I like this thread and talking about Lalli's character development, but also I'm waffling on the edge of Asperger's and it's sort of awkward to read about behaviors that both Lalli and I do, like the hands-on-ears moment with Tuuri and hiding under tables, stated as response to trauma. Not that I've got anything against trauma survivors, but I've seen these behaviors in a person without related backstory and it makes sense that that's just how his brain is.
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #226 on: December 28, 2015, 07:17:28 AM »
it's sort of awkward to read about behaviors that both Lalli and I do, like the hands-on-ears moment with Tuuri and hiding under tables, stated as response to trauma.
I hear you! My son does similar things, and in his case, it has nothing whatsoever to do with trauma, so, yeah, awkward.

And then of course, there's the fact that autism and trauma are not mutually exclusive. I might just be such a case: I definitely have Complex-PTSD thanks to several types of severe childhood abuse. But funnily enough, the more I heal and eliminate my trauma-based behaviours through therapy, the LESS socially appropriate my behaviour becomes, and it was never anything close to stellar to begin with! Combined with many other observations (such as the fact that one reason my son was diagnosed pretty late even though his autism was pretty obvious was that I kept saying, "Oh, I was the same when I was his age, no big deal!"), I finally realised that duh, I'm most likely autistic too. I've got an appointment in March with a multi-disciplinary medical team specialising in screening adults for Asperger's. We'll see what they say, but if it's not autism, then they better give me a hint as to *what* on Earth it might be, because it's very real, and it can't be explained away as "childhood trauma and disastrous socialisation" anymore!

So I can totally see Lalli as "an extreme introvert with PTSD" - but that doesn't stop him from *also* being potentially autistic.

Róisín

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #227 on: December 28, 2015, 07:35:29 AM »
Aliax: Exactly that. As you say, those two possible causes are not mutually exclusive. And when there are two (or more) possible causes likely to produce similar results, it can get pretty confusing. Add in the difficulties of getting a diagnosis in the first place, and the picture winds up really murky!
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Aliax

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #228 on: December 28, 2015, 08:28:15 AM »
Róisín: yup, and that's why I absolutely *love* Minna's answer on that topic. By refusing to tell us whether or not she deliberately writes Lalli as autistic, and yet effectively writing him as one of the best representations of high-functioning autism I've ever come across in fiction, she's preventing us from sticking him into *any* box. He's clearly a natural introvert, but he's also a Finn, and a childhood trauma survivor, and a mage, and apparently part-cat(??), and he works a solitary and night job (but then again, there's potentially a matter of chicken and egg going on there) - and on top of all that, he may or may not be autistic. This means that we simply can't reduce him to one or two of his traits: we have to take him globally. He's Lalli first, and everything else second. This is brilliant! (And it is SUCH a fresh change from most fictional autists out there, whose autism is far too often their one and only defining trait.)

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #229 on: December 28, 2015, 07:42:44 PM »
Róisín: yup, and that's why I absolutely *love* Minna's answer on that topic. By refusing to tell us whether or not she deliberately writes Lalli as autistic, and yet effectively writing him as one of the best representations of high-functioning autism I've ever come across in fiction, she's preventing us from sticking him into *any* box. He's clearly a natural introvert, but he's also a Finn, and a childhood trauma survivor, and a mage, and apparently part-cat(??), and he works a solitary and night job (but then again, there's potentially a matter of chicken and egg going on there) - and on top of all that, he may or may not be autistic. This means that we simply can't reduce him to one or two of his traits: we have to take him globally. He's Lalli first, and everything else second. This is brilliant! (And it is SUCH a fresh change from most fictional autists out there, whose autism is far too often their one and only defining trait.)
^^^^^^^ what aliax said
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wavewright62

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #230 on: December 28, 2015, 08:19:10 PM »
{redacted lengthy and redundant post about personal experience of the autistic spectrum among my loved ones}
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #231 on: December 28, 2015, 09:01:17 PM »
Wavewright: I would have been interested to read what you had to say.
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #232 on: December 28, 2015, 10:31:36 PM »
Wavewright: I would have been interested to read what you had to say.

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #233 on: December 29, 2015, 05:33:44 AM »
*shrug* My daughter has been referred for testing several times now, starting from age 4, & she's now just turned 14. While she tends to test just below thresholds for Asperger's in actual testing, she has many gifts and challenges including ultra-high intelligence, anxiety and musical gifts. The upshot of this, though, is that my husband & I were struck by the incidences of high-functioning autism and Asperger's we could find in our families, particularly his. It's fairly obvious that my husband is himself Asperger's, although back in the day it was just "Lenny being weird Lenny." Even educated people were not aware of this concept in the 60s or 70s, when we were children.
It can sometimes seem like there is some kind of bandwagon or fashionability surrounding the spectrum causing the thoughtless comments that have upset Aliax so, but some of that is the bubbling up of awareness of the topic.  Many people try to parse new information by relating it to themselves, hence the continuing popularity of self-analysis quizzes. Unfortunately, taking that information in that format usually leads to a flawed or downright incorrect understanding.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 05:38:14 AM by wavewright62 »
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #234 on: December 29, 2015, 05:38:37 AM »
Understood and agreed.
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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #235 on: December 29, 2015, 05:47:40 AM »

So I can totally see Lalli as "an extreme introvert with PTSD" - but that doesn't stop him from *also* being potentially autistic.

I quite like this analysis. What I really like about Minna's depiction of Lalli is that we see his fraught exchanges with individuals, but also the intense beauty of his working magecraft. The calm, confidence and balance he shows at those times is amazing.
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Aliax

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #236 on: December 29, 2015, 07:53:59 AM »
Our greatest challenge is also our greatest gift, and vice versa.
Yep. In this case, at least.

It's fairly obvious that my husband is himself Asperger's, although back in the day it was just "Lenny being weird Lenny." Even educated people were not aware of this concept in the 60s or 70s, when we were children.
Even as far as the 90s and early 00s (when my son was born), I don't remember that much was talked about autism except for low-functioning autism. Granted, France is 20 years late in autism awareness/understanding compared to the rest of the world, but even on the internet, I can't remember there being the kind of low-level general awareness that there's now. For example: I was in the very early Harry Potter fandom, and we certainly discussed the possibility of various conditions affecting various characters - but I can't remember HFA or Asperger's ever being mentioned.

Quote
It can sometimes seem like there is some kind of bandwagon or fashionability surrounding the spectrum causing the thoughtless comments that have upset Aliax so, but some of that is the bubbling up of awareness of the topic.
Very well said. I totally understand that to some - especially in the younger crowd who can't remember a time when Asperger was not a common word on the internet - this "bubbling up of awareness" might look like nothing more than a fashion effect, but the truth is that there are untold numbers of adults out there who grew up being "weird", and who learned to compensate to some degree and at various prices in energy and to their self-esteem and/or social life, and who are incredibly relieved to discover that not only are they not alone in their struggles, but there's a name to describe their difference, and techniques to help with the most bothersome aspects of it. For people like me who've literally spent decades wondering, "What the heck is WRONG with me D: !?", that's a HUGE discovery to make!

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Many people try to parse new information by relating it to themselves, hence the continuing popularity of self-analysis quizzes. Unfortunately, taking that information in that format usually leads to a flawed or downright incorrect understanding.
Ha, yes. Funnily enough, it *was* a self-analysis quizz which made me realise what was "wrong" with me - not by telling me "You're most likely neurodivergent" (which it did, but, well, self-analysis quizz...), but by making me realise that what I had always thought was "normal", what I had always tried to become, was in fact still very, VERY far away from what "normal" people actually consider "normal". Being neurotypical is so foreign to me, I had literally been unable to imagine it except as something extreme and abnormal. Talk about an "... Oh" moment :/ That was when I finally understood why my then-husband was so often so lost when confronted to some of our son's reactions, when to me they were so logical and easy to understand even though I'd never had them myself...

What I really like about Minna's depiction of Lalli is that we see his fraught exchanges with individuals, but also the intense beauty of his working magecraft. The calm, confidence and balance he shows at those times is amazing.
Yes! I know someone (you?) made that same reflection somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm really struck by how much pride Lalli takes in being the best scout possible and yet *still* can't "use his words" when doing his scout reports - but when it comes to runo spells, the words just flow without a hitch. And we know he's not just reciting spells he learned by heart, either; at the very least, he's able to spontaneously adapt a previous spell to his current circumstances, as with the Moon Spell.

Even better: it took Tuuri insisting three times before he finally blurted out, "I'm tired", but he freely and easily expressed his fears and confusion to Kuutar in the Moon Spell. Or during the radio episode: he had no troubles switching from politely asking the bothering spirits to move further away, to threatening to come after them if they kept pissing him off - but when it comes to expressing his emotions to other human beings, he's still stuck with using onomatopeias and the little body language he knows to express.

The contrast is absolutely fascinating to me! I feel like Minna couldn't have made it any more obvious that being a mage is what Lalli IS, while scouting is what Lalli DOES. One is his nature, the other is his job - and I absolutely love, love, LOVE that he doesn't see himself as having any obligation to reconcile the two somehow. He could most likely be a full-time mage if he wanted to, but scouting is the job he likes, so he apparently prefers to forgo magic training in order to keep being a scout (and I can only imagine Onni's feelings about *that*).

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #237 on: December 29, 2015, 08:57:50 AM »
Ha, yes. Funnily enough, it *was* a self-analysis quizz which made me realise what was "wrong" with me - not by telling me "You're most likely neurodivergent" (which it did, but, well, self-analysis quizz...), but by making me realise that what I had always thought was "normal", what I had always tried to become, was in fact still very, VERY far away from what "normal" people actually consider "normal". Being neurotypical is so foreign to me, I had literally been unable to imagine it except as something extreme and abnormal. Talk about an "... Oh" moment :/ That was when I finally understood why my then-husband was so often so lost when confronted to some of our son's reactions, when to me they were so logical and easy to understand even though I'd never had them myself...

I've had a similar discussion with someone I've known online who's very much not NT (I'd go with high-functioning austist) and who literally cannot imagine or understand that much of the rest of the world understands body language and tone and shades of meaning.  Because of my own experience with with my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle -- so proud of him!), I sort of get those reactions, but not on a deep, gut level.

Lalli, though, has a lot going on and I don't think we have enough information one way or the other.

This would all make more sense if I'd had some tea or coffee this morning, but I no longer drink caffeine.
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Aliax

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #238 on: December 29, 2015, 04:19:25 PM »
my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle -- so proud of him!),
Eeee, congratulations to him :D ! It's my understanding that this is quite an achievement for anybody?

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Lalli, though, has a lot going on and I don't think we have enough information one way or the other.
Heh. As I said, I have my own opinion, based on way too many small and not-so-small details in the comic, but I totally understand if other people see it otherwise - as long as their disagreement is not based on some glaring misunderstanding of what autism is.

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This would all make more sense if I'd had some tea or coffee this morning, but I no longer drink caffeine.
D: The horror D: !!

wavewright62

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Re: Character Development: Lalli
« Reply #239 on: December 29, 2015, 10:45:47 PM »
<snip>my younger son, who's a diagnosed Aspergers (and still made Eagle -- so proud of him!), I sort of get those reactions, but not on a deep, gut level.<snip>

Wow, excellent work by your son, hearty congratulations.  Does this perhaps illustrate my point that his challenge was made into a gift?  May I ask what his service project was?
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