All Infopages

[tehta]

I curse at my work computer ALL the time, but I am clearly doing it wrong, because it breaks constantly. Maybe I will try Finnish.

Regarding the reuse of old items vs manufacture: I think it makes a lot of sense, but it would work best if old items were being scavenged on the regular, and we don't hear much about it. I suppose there could be teams that go in right before the Cleansers? It could even be the motivation behind many cleansing efforts.

[JoB]

I suppose there could be teams that go in right before the Cleansers? It could even be the motivation behind many cleansing efforts.

Not according to Torbjörns ex-boss ...

[tehta]

I am not sure that the boss' comment proves that nothing is salvaged. I mean, those 'hooligans' could be grabbing whatever they fancy before they burn down the books. (Even just for sale in the black market.)

I am a little surprised, though, that Torb didn't ask his nephew to stash a few books in his waistband or something.

[thorny]

Not according to Torbjörns ex-boss ...

Thanks for that link! I hadn't gotten to it yet on the re-read, and had forgotten about it -- but there's the explanation for why books are rare in the first place. I'd been thinking, why don't they just raid the libraries -- but of course the libraries are all in the middle of, if not cities, at least towns; and dangerous to get to. So they're burning the areas first, and of course the books don't survive.

Hey, I'd have been rich, all the books in this house out in the country -- except it's the wrong country, and not isolatable, and I'd far more likely either have died right off or be a troll sitting on my book-hoard (and wondering unhappily why my cats stopped loving me.)

[lwise]

I am not sure that the boss' comment proves that nothing is salvaged. I mean, those 'hooligans' could be grabbing whatever they fancy before they burn down the books. (Even just for sale in the black market.)

I am a little surprised, though, that Torb didn't ask his nephew to stash a few books in his waistband or something.

Although the books are at the heart of the story, there's a real problem with the world-building around them.  You can handwave that the Icelanders, Norwegians, and Finns went back to magic and therefore burned their books, but the Danes and Swedes didn't.  The best you can do for the Swedes is that they used books as fuel when it was cold and too dangerous to go searching for firewood, but that doesn't seem to apply to the Danes, who were on their island and presumably not infested with trolls (Bornholm is "safe" not "cleansed").  And then, as tehta points out, even if you suppose that Swedes and Danes did burn their books for fuel or in reaction to the Rash, why aren't books now being scavenged, particularly in Sweden?

For that matter, there's a world-building problem with the whole expedition.  Why send it to Silent Denmark?  No one would have anticipated that the bridge would collapse, but still, the base can only be supplied by ship or the dangerous and unreliable railroad.  Why not send the expedition into Silent Sweden, where, if you did find something really valuable, a second expedition could be easily launched to retrieve it?  Or, if the expedition got in trouble somehow (pinned down by trolls, for instance), a rescue mission could be easily mounted from Mora?  The sponsors seem to intend to sell the books to Danes, but Swedes are also interested in technology, and anyway, translation would always be an option if the books were in Swedish instead of Danish.

The question of "Why Denmark?" leads me to think that the whole expedition was organized by General Trond to get a specific, unique item that is in Denmark, and the books are just a cover story.

[tehta]

Or possibly not to get an item (or not yet), but just test the feasibility of a serious scavenging mission by running a cheap trial with easy-to-replace random staff? (I have the feeling that Trond was a bit put off by getting Sigrun, a well-connected person he knows, rather than some random noob.) After all, nobody's been so deep in Denmark for quite a while. Maybe Trond will even go himself, now that he knows it's survivable by 'idiots'.

(Also, it might make sense to go looking for Danish books if the biggest likely market is 'rich Danes who really want the originals', but that is not at all what the boss said. Although, maybe they did market research. and found that there are a few Danes who would pay far, far more than any Swede?)

In all, this whole "the world feels so vibrant, but it really is not fully thought out, is it?" thing is probably the best sort of state for a franchise to be in to inspire fanfiction.

[JoB]

The sponsors seem to intend to sell the books to Danes, but Swedes are also interested in technology, and anyway, translation would always be an option if the books were in Swedish instead of Danish.

Well, Torbjörn said out loud that the highest bids were from Danes for specific, presumably Danish, books. And him and his boss seem to have tacitly agreed that, copyslave skalds and translators or not, it's the originals that have particularly high price tags attached to them. Of course, neither makes much sense to us ratio-governed ancients, so it may be some common post-Rash crazyness, or just "Torbjörn logic" that managed to find three susceptible fools to make for a quartet ...

[lwise]

Well, Torbjörn said out loud that the highest bids were from Danes for specific, presumably Danish, books.

And yet the team doesn't seem to have a list of those books or where they might be, and Sigrun doesn't appear to be aware that they're supposed to be looking for specific books.

And him and his boss seem to have tacitly agreed that, copyslave skalds and translators or not, it's the originals that have particularly high price tags attached to them. Of course, neither makes much sense to us ratio-governed ancients, so it may be some common post-Rash crazyness, or just "Torbjörn logic" that managed to find three susceptible fools to make for a quartet ...

It does make sense to me that originals would be especially valued, which is the only real explanation I can see for looking for books in Silent Denmark.  There'd have to be some really rich Danes to justify this expedition, though.

[JoB]

And yet the team doesn't seem to have a list of those books or where they might be

Oh, they do have a list of where to look (no small feat, given the ubiquity of small communal libraries in pre-Rash Denmark), though some of us were quite surprised of the places they skipped along their path.

and Sigrun doesn't appear to be aware that they're supposed to be looking for specific books.

Frankly, Sigrun has no concept that there are "specific" books.

[lwise]

Oh, they do have a list of where to look (no small feat, given the ubiquity of small communal libraries in pre-Rash Denmark), though some of us were quite surprised of the places they skipped along their path.

I suppose you could handwave that, as Denmark collapsed in the face of the Rash, people raided universities and hospitals in search of books they needed to survive.  Or maybe librarians would have stayed to protect the books ... and are still there.

Frankly, Sigrun has no concept that there are "specific" books.

Just so.

[Róisín]

The explanation that I have been working toward in my fanfic is that at least Mikkel does know what specific books and artifacts he is seeking because he is, under Trond, part of an ongoing mad science project that comes to fruition in the story ‘An Historical Document’, which builds on events late in ‘A Few of Mikkel’s Secrets’ and ‘Caring For a Friend’ (specifically the bits where Odin extracts a promise from Lalli in exchange for help in finding Emil’s wandering soul, and where Lalli and the elves overcome a very strange giant). I really should find time to finish those interlinked stories…….

[dmeck7755]

Although the books are at the heart of the story, there's a real problem with the world-building around them.  You can handwave that the Icelanders, Norwegians, and Finns went back to magic and therefore burned their books, but the Danes and Swedes didn't.  The best you can do for the Swedes is that they used books as fuel when it was cold and too dangerous to go searching for firewood, but that doesn't seem to apply to the Danes, who were on their island and presumably not infested with trolls (Bornholm is "safe" not "cleansed").  And then, as tehta points out, even if you suppose that Swedes and Danes did burn their books for fuel or in reaction to the Rash, why aren't books now being scavenged, particularly in Sweden?

They would probably do that (burn), especially books that dealt with subjects they would not think pertinent to survival. Like technology, cookbooks (considering the array of food stuff will be reduced greatly), a lot of fiction.

Part of my head cannon is that books were either scavenged, put in public libraries, or private collections.  In areas that are clean.  If you look at the Cleaners info on page(s)118-119, It looks like they destroy and not look around.  Though I would bet some enterprising individuals would gather up stuff.   (Scavenger guild knows the cleanser schedule and grabs first?)

I would think that some libraries would be for reading in the building.  That they won't allow the books to leave (Being very valuable, and they would be next to impossible to replace if pilfered.)

For Sweden the scavenger guild could control what comes out of the silent lands (head cannon again and the beginning of the stories I put on A03.  I also been putting to story that they are gathering as much info as possible first before selling)

Also, maybe people of Sweden may be like Siv and Torbjörn, not wanting to endanger themselves and willing to let others do the work.  After all, Mora is almost modern.  Go out there where there are Monsters?.  Sleep on the ground?  Not have a shower? Eat field rations?? They have become content with an easier/safer life.  What is left of Denmark is also pretty modern. (In my thoughts the Guild did not enter Denmark because to the ghosts and the trouble they have brought Kastrup, and the tank attack, for instance)

For that matter, there's a world-building problem with the whole expedition.  Why send it to Silent Denmark?  No one would have anticipated that the bridge would collapse, but still, the base can only be supplied by ship or the dangerous and unreliable railroad.  Why not send the expedition into Silent Sweden, where, if you did find something really valuable, a second expedition could be easily launched to retrieve it?  Or, if the expedition got in trouble somehow (pinned down by trolls, for instance), a rescue mission could be easily mounted from Mora?  The sponsors seem to intend to sell the books to Danes, but Swedes are also interested in technology, and anyway, translation would always be an option if the books were in Swedish instead of Danish.

Maybe because they knew Denmark was not picked over ?  Maybe they knew the Danes would pay big bucks for old work technology/books especially if it came from DENMARK's silent lands?

Also, they were on a shoestring budget.  I bet a few of those Kroners went to the organizers pockets. (Their salary) That they really were not going to pay for rescue (General Trond used blackmail and not money)

The question of "Why Denmark?" leads me to think that the whole expedition was organized by General Trond to get a specific, unique item that is in Denmark, and the books are just a cover story.

My precccioussssss!

[dmeck7755]

Wavewright, cussing at things in the proper poetic/magical structure and usage is indeed a thing in many magical traditions, including the obvious example of the Celtic Satirists, who could use Bardic invocations to physically affect the thing or person being sworn at. Both the verse form and the precise boundaries of the satire needed to be very carefully defined, as is wise with any magic - limitations are very much a thing in most our-world traditions of magic. For example, you might want to curse somebody with uncomfortable blisters or itches, but you needed to make very sure that the effect would go away once the victim modified their behaviour, and would affect only them and not their family or clan, would not cause permanent damage or scarring, and such like limits.

Several of the Arabic traditions also have very elegant magical verse cursing traditions.

Just because

[Jitter]

I find the apparent lack of scavenging a glaring omission. Minna was at some point (before All That) considering info pages on the economic structure of the Known World, which could have included something about that. For example that scavenging is strictly illegal after too many accidents (hence send a scientific investigation team and not looters). By Y90 they will have had time to have various different situations. But maybe Minna just wanted to be different from many (most?) post-apocalypse stories that tend to be scavenging-heavy.

The fact that they went to Denmark may be explained though. Perhaps the Swedish government considers the entity of historical Sweden as their area, and likewise for Norway, but the state of Denmark is officially just Bornholm. This is conjecture of course but mind how Sweden wants to build railways while the Danes retreated to their island after the failed reclaim attempt. Maybe they made an official declaration to abandon Jylland and the main islands to the Silent World? This could mean that any books procured from Silent Sweden or Norway would have the risk of getting confiscated by the governments, but Silent Denmark would be considered no man’s land.

Secondly Denmark is more densely populated, as in more places to loot within a smallish area. This is of course both good and bad.

There’s also a direct contradiction related to books. Torb is typing the copies, but later they have newspapers. And not only in Iceland but Finland too. They must have relatively flexible printing press available.

[LooNEY_DAC]

In re scavenging: in the elder days of the comments, there were many, many discussions which pointed out how very, very little would be usable by Y90; I know I looked up how plastic decays as research for fanfics, at the very least.

Also, Torbjorn is making a copy to send to the printers for reprinting, since the originals are too valuable to risk in that endeavor.