(Re)reading The Silmarillion

[RanVor]

So, it's September (here in Europe at least) and our quest deep into the history of Arda shall begin!

As discussed, we'll do it in week-long chunks. This is the discussion schedule - you can of course read faster (or slower) but discussion of each section and the work up to that section shall begin on Monday of each week.

Schedule: Read by / discussion starts

Ainulindalë - 6 September
Valaquenta - 13 September

Quenta Silmarillion:
Chapters 1&2 - 20 September
Chapters 3&4 - 27 September

and so on. We can adjust the length of the reading chunk as we go along, this seems like a very relaxed pace but let's at least start slow.

I approve of this schedule, although in the future, I would suggest adjusting the number of chapters per week according to their length. Some of the later chapters get pretty long, while others are only a couple of pages in length.

With the new job, I don't have nearly as much time for reading as I would like, so it's nice to have the discussion in small chunks to avoid feeling pressured, even though I could probably still read a lot faster.

[Jitter]

Yeah so, any thoughts?

I have a question. I Ilúvatar male or female? I’m reading in Finnish, and we have only one word for both he and she.

I assume it’s male, but I’ve always considered her female. In Finnish the suffix -tar usually means a female form, so for example in Lalli’s moon spell Kuutar means basically Mistress Moon (kuu = moon + tar). So while Ilúvatar is not Finnish, it carries a strong indication of a female person for me.

[tehta]

Definitely a 'he' in English. The same goes for all the Ainur we have met so far: Melkor. Manwe, and Ulmo.
(The Silm is, in general, extremely male-centric. Of course, it's supposed to be a book put together by loremasters, so one can always just blame it on them...)

Things I enjoy about this chapter:
-- It is a foretelling of everything that will happen. it also highlights the importance of music in this universe.
-- The whole 'creative struggle' bit at the beginning makes me (as a creator) feel some sympathy for Melkor. Sure, he's a bit of a diva, but he's the only one trying to be Creative on a large scale, and I have to give him props for that. (Also the whole music-battle, with the different pieces described, is a little 'Devil went down to Georgia', but with the person opposing the Devil being all-powerful, which makes much less fair.)

[moredhel]

In the german translation Ilúvatar is male.

I have some thoughts.
First I want to say, we can see by the way how the world is created Tolkien clearly was a poet. Having some thoughts or ideas, weaving them into a song and this song causes the world. This is in my opinion how a poet or a musician would do it. Songs (or stories) make a world real and alive. A more paintery person would have done it in the other way let ther be light and then add things one after the other.

[moredhel]

The whole 'creative struggle' bit at the beginning makes me (as a creator) feel some sympathy for Melkor. Sure, he's a bit of a diva, but he's the only one trying to be Creative on a large scale, and I have to give him props for that.

I feel completely the same about Melkor. He wants to create his own original creations I can feek this. And he does not only destroy he does add new things to the world like the snowflakes. And as his Brothers and Sisters Melkor is a Part of Ilúvatars thoughts. At least from my point of view this is an accurate psychological description. The part of my mind that makes me to try to improve and acquire new skill is the same part that wants to burn all of my works because they are not good enough.

[Jitter]

Ilúvatar specifically says to Melkor that he cannot add anything into the music that wasn’t originated in Ilúvatar. So, does this mean that greed, covetousness and hate always have to be part of the World? This is a thought presented in many works. There cannot be light without shadow. Or maybe there cannot be creativity without someone who’s refusing to conform?

[tehta]

Doesn't he even say that Melkor's whole 'rebellion' is part of his design?

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful. which he himself hath not imagined.’

So, yes, some of the most wonderful parts of the design could not be created without the discord of Melkor, and, yes, even that discord has it's source in Iluvatar.

Still finding Iluvatar a bit pompous and annoying... this will be a recurring theme for me. I always like the middle-managers of the Elves better than their leaders. Ulmo is pretty cool, though.

BTW, check out that bit at the end, about gender identity among the Ainur:

...for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.

[moredhel]

I would say that without a feeling the existing things are not good enough there never would be a new creation. Without the Melkor thought within Ilúvatar would there have been a world at all? Without the wish to create something original?
If any world would have existed it would have been a static one because everyone would have been in harmony with everything else. There would never have been any need to change anything.

As longer I think about it more and more things would be impossible without anything destructive in the world. No progress, nothing new, can strong emotions be possible in this 'perfect' world? Every strong emotion has destructive elements.

To break it down to a more practical level kids draw stick figures. If the kids would just be happy with stick figures, nothing else would be drawn ever. Every painting technique and theory was invented because stick figures are not good enough.

[tehta]

I totally agree with all you are saying, fellow-forum-member-with-Tolkien-related-nickname.  And we'll see a similar theme again and again, where a somewhat corrupt creative urge brings darkness (and beauty) to the world.

Spoiler: show

Exhibit A: Feanor. Exhibit B: his grandson.

[Jitter]

Everything must end, for without endings there would be no beginnings (I’m sure this is a direct quote but don’t know where from).

Tehta, I meant exactly the bit in your first quote, although as I have the translation I didn’t know how exactly to put it.

[Róisín]

Moredhel, I find it interesting that Tolkien based his Elvish languages in Finnish and Welsh.

 And the creation story has elements of our Celtic Pagan one, in which God sings the first word, which becomes the three rays of light from which the universe is created. Which is why the Druidic symbol is those three lines radiating from a single point, symbolising creation.

[moredhel]

Starting with the first word feels like a quite natural singers/poets creation. But Tolkien startet with a complete complex song with 3 quite different movements. Maybe the difference between the two methods is that in Tolkiens way to do it the whole history of the world is already determined.

[Jitter]

Starting with the first word feels like a quite natural singers/poets creation. But Tolkien startet with a complete complex song with 3 quite different movements. Maybe the difference between the two methods is that in Tolkiens way to do it the whole history of the world is already determined.

Doesn't he even say that Melkor's whole 'rebellion' is part of his design?

So, yes, some of the most wonderful parts of the design could not be created without the discord of Melkor, and, yes, even that discord has it's source in Iluvatar.

I feel the ending could well be interpreted to mean that Melkor's actions in trying to destroy everything the valar created may have an effect on this. That his destruction added an element of the unexpected, again appearing as destruction that also creates? So that while the World came into being based on the Song, the cycle of creation and destruction perhaps changed it so that it doesn't have to follow the Song exactly?

On the other hand it also says that the vision of the World dimmed before the end and this is why valar don't know the end of times, implying that until the moment where the vision was extinguished, they do know what will be.

(I'm already thinking I may have to get the original English version too, it's hard to discuss specific passages with only the translation)

Still finding Iluvatar a bit pompous and annoying... this will be a recurring theme for me. I always like the middle-managers of the Elves better than their leaders. Ulmo is pretty cool, though.

Oh yes! Trololoo, I'm just letting you "rebel"

BTW, check out that bit at the end, about gender identity among the Ainur:

Yeah I noticed that and it rubs me the wrong way a bit. Ok written SO LONG ago (I mean by JRR, not the Second Age or whatever, but still) and therefore understandable but why would a non-corporeal Power need a gender?

[moredhel]

I feel the ending could well be interpreted to mean that Melkor's actions in trying to destroy everything the valar created may have an effect on this. That his destruction added an element of the unexpected, again appearing as destruction that also creates? So that while the World came into being based on the Song, the cycle of creation and destruction perhaps changed it so that it doesn't have to follow the Song exactly?

This is an idea I like. Because it would open a way for the humans to find their own path between creation and destruction. Basically creating their own song.

Yeah I noticed that and it rubs me the wrong way a bit. Ok written SO LONG ago (I mean by JRR, not the Second Age or whatever, but still) and therefore understandable but why would a non-corporeal Power need a gender?

That ist a point that puzzles me. But I am a weirdo I don't understand the relevance of gender differences for real people so I thought I was the only one puzzled by this.

[tehta]

I guess many people (including both Tolkien, and the hypothetical loremasters who wrote the Silm in theory) are uncomfortable with beings of unclear gender. (I don't get it either, of course.)  I think I will end up pointing out other strange (to me) takes on gender throughout. I do think it's interesting that he definitely sees it as a function of the soul, not the flesh, though.

The humans are definitely getting their own path beyond Arda, one that is not foretold in the Music, at least after death. I think the 'Of Men' chapter states this explicitly.