Author Topic: Language learning discussion  (Read 43801 times)

Ana Nymus

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #255 on: May 28, 2015, 08:15:13 PM »
If it's Icelandic you're looking for, might I direct you to the Icelandic learning thread?
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=465.0
At the very least, you'll get some good music out of it :)
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Krisse Kovacs

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #256 on: May 28, 2015, 08:29:12 PM »
If it's Icelandic you're looking for, might I direct you to the Icelandic learning thread?
https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=465.0
At the very least, you'll get some good music out of it :)
I am checking it sometimes, I will try something that is lost whjen I have time for them
can speak :hungary::uk: used to learn :germany: is learning :sweden::finland: can read a bit :norway::denmark: want to learn :iceland:
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Laufey

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #257 on: May 29, 2015, 05:14:20 AM »
(For me Finnish is easiest to pronounce)

Back when I still lived in Finland we once had four Hungarian exchange students for a semester, and it was such a weird experience for everyone to listen to them talk to each other. The pronunciation was so similar to Finnish that your brain immediately decided they were speaking Finnish, just that you yourself had suddenly stopped understanding your mother tongue. I'm not even kidding, we spoke of this in the classroom a few times and everyone felt the same - the Hungarians included, apparently they too had moments of "why do I think I should understand everything the Finns say but can't?".

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Pessi

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #258 on: May 29, 2015, 05:52:53 AM »
Laufey, I had the same experience with Estonian many times when I was younger. Nowadays one hears the language so often that ears have adapted to the small differencies in the melody and rhythm of the languages and recognize Estonian as another language, but still it's funny to listen when one almost understands.
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Krisse Kovacs

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #259 on: May 29, 2015, 07:26:33 AM »
Back when I still lived in Finland we once had four Hungarian exchange students for a semester, and it was such a weird experience for everyone to listen to them talk to each other. The pronunciation was so similar to Finnish that your brain immediately decided they were speaking Finnish, just that you yourself had suddenly stopped understanding your mother tongue. I'm not even kidding, we spoke of this in the classroom a few times and everyone felt the same - the Hungarians included, apparently they too had moments of "why do I think I should understand everything the Finns say but can't?".

(Yay! for Hetalia Nordics.)

Toootally, many time I heard finnish, I thought it was hungarian,  but then I realized, I understand nothing! Also I rested myself, reading finnish text loud to finns, and mostly I got comment I pronounced them right. And also got the "true finn" comment for it.

Also my sister (friend, who grew up in finland but hungarian,  we share same surname liek we are sisters lol), she has accent in hungarian,  I didn’t believe there could be, but there was something. (Her mother sounds just like a normal hungarian)

[size=6ptYeeey! Hetalia Nordics!)[/size]

Laufey, I had the same experience with Estonian many times when I was younger. Nowadays one hears the language so often that ears have adapted to the small differencies in the melody and rhythm of the languages and recognize Estonian as another language, but still it's funny to listen when one almost understands.

Maybe I am not expert but they are at least closer, and they can kind of understand eachother because of the similarities

Unlike hungarian,  where almost no any similarities
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Helia

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #260 on: May 29, 2015, 07:38:04 AM »
Back when I still lived in Finland we once had four Hungarian exchange students for a semester, and it was such a weird experience for everyone to listen to them talk to each other. The pronunciation was so similar to Finnish that your brain immediately decided they were speaking Finnish, just that you yourself had suddenly stopped understanding your mother tongue. I'm not even kidding, we spoke of this in the classroom a few times and everyone felt the same - the Hungarians included, apparently they too had moments of "why do I think I should understand everything the Finns say but can't?".

Uh, I know, it’s so frustrating! I’m totally envious of people who can understand each other’s languages if they concentrate enough.

I've studied quite a lot of languages – only to forget most of them  :-\

Russian – well, when I started elementary school, it was still the communist era in Hungary (help, I’m old), so the compulsory language was Russian. But we could feel the wind of change and rebelled against it, and after the political change we stopped studying Russian and started
English – only there weren’t enough English teachers in the country. In my class those who had any previous encounter with English language became the ‘advanced’ group and got a very old lady as a teacher, and the others had classes with our former Russian teacher, who was participating in an intensive English course and was only a few chapters before the students. (You can imagine, how effective the classes were)
German – in high school my main foreign language was German (still not enough English teachers). I liked it and was quite good, but I never needed to use it since, and unfortunately my knowledge is fading. I still try to practice it whenever I can.
Italian – was my second language; even though we had a great teacher, I forgot almost everything I’ve learned
Latin – was compulsory at the University; after two years we had to take an exam. Back then I felt it was a waste of time and didn’t put much effort in learning it, but somehow my exam results were among the best – I couldn’t really believe it.  When my Latin teacher asked if I wanted to continue and join his medieval text reading course, I burst out laughing. (and did not attend the course)
Japanese – stared learning it on my own; in my case the motivation was the love of Japanese dorama and jidaigeki. I do understand some phrases, but wouldn’t be able to communicate.

Sadly, after all these language studies I can only speak English and German (if I try hard)
native: :hungary:  fluent: :uk:  special: :germany:

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Viisikielinenkantele

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #261 on: May 29, 2015, 01:15:47 PM »
Similarities of finnish and hungarian: well, it would be weird if there weren't any, after all they are related. Granted, finnish and estonian share a closer relationship.

As for my reasons to learn languages:

Latin was the first foreign language in school. I had problems with it because I was really lazy and didn't learn the words, but I like grammar very much and was therefor strangely good in translating textes (even without the relevant words - my teachers were constantly surprised how few words I really knew  :P)
English was my second language in school. It was okayish and I spent two summer-vacations in England with an english family, but I really learned it when I began reading english books (and this I did because I was very unsatisfied with german book-translations)
Italian was my third language in school. I took it because we spent every summer at least one week in Italy.
Finnish I learned at the University. I took the course because my best friend is half finn and I fell quickly in love with the language, the land and the people.
Estonian: the same reason as finnish, it was a course included in my studies.
Kamassian: we had a teacher at our institute and it was just for fun learning a lost uralic language
Swedish: I really wanted to learn it for a time because of the finland-swedes, I just never gotten around to do it. We'll see how long it lasts now...
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learning: :sweden:

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ruth

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #262 on: May 29, 2015, 02:41:14 PM »
Long answer: I've always had this explainable desire to learn languages and I am very curious about linguistics, especially Germanic linguistics. Also most of the members of my family speak at least two languages (my grandpa speaks 5) so I grew up used to hearing a lot of different languages.

Swedish I have kinda learned on and off for fun. I did the duolingo course, but most of my learning happened accidentally and comes from binge watching Swedish crime shows (also Äkta Människor which isn't a crime show but really amazing anyway). As a result, I know exactly what a terrified person should yell in Swedish when being held at gun point.

It's actually a little scary how on the nose both of these are for me. I'm also a total sucker/fangirl for Germanic languages, and Swedish I learned mostly along the way from watching crime shows and Äkta Människor.

Anyway, I realized I haven't posted anything here, so let's see...

Spanish is my first language, I didn't really have much choice there, and English I learned in kindergarten.

I did Latin in middle school, but that wasn't so much as a language I learned to speak as much learning to read Latin poetry. When the time came to pick a language to learn in high school, though, I started with German and became very good with it—especially after doing a couple months in an exchange program—but it's been five or six years since I've spoken it regularly and as such it's gotten pretty rusty, to say nothing of how mixed up it's gotten with Swedish and Norwegian and even French...

French is something that I've learned on and off completely informally—just from my background with Spanish and Latin plus spending some time in Québec I've managed to put together enough knowledge to be able to order in restaurants, buy groceries, and read road signs. Mostly the written language is so omnipresent here that you have to try really hard not to learn at least some French...but my speaking abilities are a lot more rudimentary, to my chagrin.

Swedish, as above. I wanted to watch Äkta Människor and couldn't find a version available with English subtitles. So, obviously the only solution was to learn Swedish.

Then I picked up Norwegian, which was kind of one I've always wanted to learn, since it was part of my family's heritage for generations. My grandmother learned it, but never passed it on to my mum, and I kind of felt a little cheated there. So of course the only solution was to go about learning it. :)

Now I'm working on Icelandic because I'm going to visit! It doesn't hurt that learning it will get me the added bonus of being able to read Old Norse as I get better.
Principal mouthnoises: :spain: :uk: :norway:

viola

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #263 on: May 29, 2015, 03:56:49 PM »
It's actually a little scary how on the nose both of these are for me. I'm also a total sucker/fangirl for Germanic languages, and Swedish I learned mostly along the way from watching crime shows and Äkta Människor.

Swedish, as above. I wanted to watch Äkta Människor and couldn't find a version available with English subtitles. So, obviously the only solution was to learn Swedish.

All 20 episodes of Äkta Människor used to be up on the RÚV website for free with Icelandic subtitles. It's called Alvöru Fólk in Icelandic. That's how I watched it, and I ended up picking up some bonus Swedish vocab along the way. I don't know if it's still there, I haven't been able to find it since they redid their website layout, but if someone finds it again, please let me know. I would love to rewatch it.
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ruth

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Re: Why are you learning?
« Reply #264 on: May 29, 2015, 04:04:29 PM »
All 20 episodes of Äkta Människor used to be up on the RÚV website for free with Icelandic subtitles. It's called Alvöru Fólk in Icelandic. That's how I watched it, and I ended up picking up some bonus Swedish vocab along the way. I don't know if it's still there, I haven't been able to find it since they redid their website layout, but if someone finds it again, please let me know. I would love to rewatch it.

The grand irony is that after I had watched the whole thing (and gone to the trouble of learning Swedish along the way), I found a Vimeo account that had the whole thing with English subtitles. Though I got my partner to watch it with me then, so I guess it was still useful. If you want to rewatch it, those links should still be working okay! :)

It's also available on Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, and Finnish Netflix with subtitles in each of those languages (and I think in Belgium and the Netherlands in Dutch, but I'm not sure about that one).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 04:06:05 PM by ruth »
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What does fluency mean to you? + language acquisition musings
« Reply #265 on: October 02, 2018, 04:02:43 PM »
Hello, all! I hope you're doing well today and enjoying your various linguistic pursuits. :)

As I just started my sixth year of studying French, I've found myself thinking more and more about the concept of fluency and what my goals are in learning/studying/using French. When I started this journey (waaaaay back in 2013, haha) I thought I would be 'fluent' in French by now. But as I continue to grow and change and so does my French proficiency, I guess I've realized that I find 'fluency' to be kind of a nebulous goal...? Particularly since I'm not yet immersed in my target language.

So my question for you lovely people--as language learners, what does fluency mean to you? Do you have particular ways which you find constructive in assessing your proficiency in a given language? What are your goals with your learning language(s)? Do you think fluency outside of linguistic immersion is attainable? Was there something that you feel really increased your fluency/brought your language skills to the next level?

I'd love to hear your thoughts, musings, and (perhaps) secrets about second language acquisition and this marvelous thing we call fluency!
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Re: What does fluency mean to you? + language acquisition musings
« Reply #266 on: October 02, 2018, 07:56:56 PM »
It's hard to say exactly when I think I reached something ressembling fluency in English, it's kind of nebulous, but at various points I noticed that:
— I am no longer looking up words in the English dictionary more often than I was looking up French ones.
— I find myself spontaneously thinking in English very frequently.
— I can watch youtubers, listen to podcasts and watch movies in American English without subtitles and pretty much get 99% of what is said, even when I don't give it my full attention and do something else on the side (British English remains a bit more difficult).
— 95% of the time I look for material in English first before looking it in French, because I know I'll find more information without any loss of comprehension.
— English has effectively become my primary writing language, because all the material I create, if it has any audience at all, it's an English speaking audience.

From the moment I started to learn English in school, I'd say it took at least 15-20 years to reach that point though, and that was with a lot of daily practice of the language on the internet. So it was not "immersion", but it was still a lot of practice.

I'd like to reach that point in maybe a couple other languages, but I'm becoming increasingly doubtful that it will ever happen, because no other language has as much material I'm interested in as English does.
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Re: What does fluency mean to you? + language acquisition musings
« Reply #267 on: October 02, 2018, 08:54:30 PM »
For me I've been working on french my whole life, but I didn't really start working intensely on it until 10 years ago. I've passed a university exam that says I'm proficient/fluent in french, but if I were to speak to you out loud you would be able to tell I have an accent and I get some words wrong. For reading, writing, and listening it makes no difference to me because I'm used to having my university courses in french. I think some really big leaps for me came from actually being immersed and taking my university courses in french, and currently being in a relationship with a native french speaker. I started recognizing different accents, and different registers. Living with a french speaker forces me to learn all the things you don't learn in a french class like slang, expressions, and informal spoken language, which is a whole different animal. I think now that I can make jokes and learn in a more natural setting than a classroom I feel more fluent than I ever did just learning grammar and vocab. It teaches you to improvise in your second language and that makes you a lot more comfortable, and you're not under the pressure of grading so you stop caring about being perfect. There will always be areas to improve (I still struggle to understand rapidfire thick québécois with slang XD).

The way I see it is that each language is a different way of thinking. Some ways are more similar than others but you are literally trying to get your brain to relearn the boundaries by which it thinks. Our language limits our thoughts and you are trying to break those boundaries. There are words and descriptions and grammatical regulations that make it so that we literally cannot think of certain concepts properly. The best way to learn the way of thinking that goes with a language is to be around the people who use it everyday because really you're not going to be able to easily experience a different way of thinking without the people. You have to see how they give meaning to their thoughts and the things they experience through language, and that is a never ending process. Also a cool part is when you see how learning a new language has changed the way you speak english (or your native language).
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Ana Nymus

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Re: What does fluency mean to you? + language acquisition musings
« Reply #268 on: October 02, 2018, 09:32:03 PM »
I've never been fluent in anything but English, but my middle school Spanish teacher told me something that stuck when I asked what fluency meant. She said that you're probably fluent when two things happen:
  • You understand jokes in the language
  • You dream in the language
I don't know if anyone else agrees, and I never achieved a high enough level in Spanish to do either of those things, so I can't comment myself. It seemed less like a definition and more like a milestone. Though perhaps that works better, given the nebulous nature of fluency itself.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 10:10:06 PM by Ana Nymus »
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:spain: Out of practice.
:finland: Failed to learn.
:vaticancity: Probably remember five words.
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Mebediel

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Re: What does fluency mean to you? + language acquisition musings
« Reply #269 on: October 02, 2018, 11:37:22 PM »
I've never been fluent in anything but English, but my middle school Spanish teacher told me something that stuck when I asked what fluency meant. She said that you're probably fluent when two things happen:
  • You understand jokes in the language
  • You dream in the language
I don't know if anyone else agrees, and I never achieved a high enough level in Spanish to do either of those things, so I can't comment myself. It seemed less like a definition and more like a milestone. Though perhaps that works better, given the nebulous nature of fluency itself.
I'd agree that it's more of a milestone...I've experienced both with Mandarin, but I wouldn't not consider myself fluent. I think the official litmus test for fluency in Mandarin is knowing somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 characters, which I definitely don't have. Personally, I've always thought that if you're able to comfortably carry conversations about special interests like politics or academics (or SSSS) and not just small talk, then you're fluent. But maybe that's just another milestone rather than a proper definition of fluency.
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