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General => General Discussion Board => Topic started by: Gwenno on March 28, 2020, 07:05:55 PM

Title: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Gwenno on March 28, 2020, 07:05:55 PM

We're all worried and stressed at the moment, and well, that's completely normal considering the times. This thread is for talking about your thoughts and feelings relating to the Covid 19 pandemic.

(A thread for updating people on Covid19 developments in your area is also available here (https://ssssforum.com/index.php?topic=1119.0))

While I highly doubt it will be a problem, there is a lot of misinformation circulating at the moment relating to the virus, so please be very careful if you want to share anything beyond your own personal thoughts and feelings - thank you!

Unless it is specifically to vent your frustrations, please refrain from discussing conspiracy theories (even when you disagree with them).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on March 29, 2020, 01:18:26 AM

I'm keeping an occasional journal for these times, and my thoughts have included...

Quote

This afternoon, returning from a supply run (such as it was, given that the only convenient supermarket has a one-of-any-item limit), I suddenly became aware of something that must have been at the back of my mind since the morning when I woke up to the first full day of lockdown - the silence.
The usual background hum of the city was gone. It's as quiet as a country town.

Quote

I am not going to see anyone I know face to face for who knows how long. It’ll just be their voices, or words in texts and on Skype or on Forums (and, I have to admit it, Facebook).

Extracts from a semi-facetious Skype chat:

Quote

My GP thinks it likely that the lockdown and all that goes with it may well last six months.

After only four full days I'm having cabin fever moments.

I might well have overestimated my tolerance of my own company.

Quote

[A friend] is reciting conspiracist trolling about supposed Chinese perfidy. It goes something like this.
The Chinese unleashed COVID-19 (whether deliberately or by accident isn’t important), and they're waiting for the right moment to reveal their vaccine and “save the world.” The “evidence” seems to be what he’s discussed with “people.” He's gone from "What if..." to "When are they going to do that?" without anything in between.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on March 29, 2020, 04:14:45 AM

That’s a scary idea, though I am unsure how likely it is. I have been hearing all kinds of stuff, from escaped bioweapon to chemtrails to an attempt to decrease the surplus population. I think most of it is ramlatch nonsense, and don’t think I know enough to posit a theory of my own, other than possibly a viral disease that has mutated and jumped species, whether by nature or by human tampering. Wouldn’t be the first time that has happened. I remain very sceptical about most of the theories. Wait and see, I guess.

For ourselves, we are okay so far, though I worry about how much time both of us have to spend at hospitals and other medical environments. And even with the continuation of weekly farmers markets, I am going to be taking a financial hit, especially since I just heard that the monthly markets I do have been cancelled for the foreseeable future. But folk still have to eat and buy vegetable seeds and perennial food plants, which is most of what I am selling at present. Oddly enough, also flowers - I sold out last Saturday, with people saying that it was lovely to be able to have a bit of colour and beauty and perfume among the general bleakness.

And I managed to organise with some young friends down in the city to do a shopping run for me, and to have the provisions delivered by another friend who had to come out this way to look after his horse, which is at a stable in our area. He couldn’t come in to say hello, more is the pity, because his wife is immunocompromised and he is being really serious about social distancing, but we managed to have a conversation from a couple of meters distance, which is good. And I now have a few things which I couldn’t get here, like a big bag of flour, tinned tomato soup, rice and three rolls of toilet paper, which I will probably save for husband since I am an old bushie and fine with leaves.

I worry about my family because they are scattered all around the world, but so far they survive. Alas, my nearest close relative is 600 miles away, and being a small farmer with a young family in a remote area he is unlikely to be going anywhere. But we survive.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on March 29, 2020, 06:48:06 AM

Conspiracism is a default setting for so many folk in recent years. Just about every mass shooting or incident of domestic terror brings forth the reflex cry of "False flag!" Even natural disasters are conscripted into that way of thinking at times (cf. the one who could blame the Boxing Day Tsunami on a carefully-placed nuke). As I told my conspiracy-trolling friend, "Diseases can just break out. Humanity has had to cope with epidemics throughout its existence. "

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Purple Wyrm on March 29, 2020, 08:46:07 AM

I've been working from home and self-isolating since Wednesday after coming down with what is probably just a cold. I'm finding it a bit difficult to get any work done because there are so many distractions and interesting things in my apartment! I'll have to knuckle down tomorrow I think though.

The main problem I'm running into is with time. I'm used to the rhythm of getting up and commuting into the office during the week, doing grocery shopping on Saturday, and relaxing for the rest of the weekend. Without that all the days are kind of running together. I'm not sure how that's going to work long term, but we'll see.

Last week's episode (http://ohnopodcast.com/investigations/2020/3/21/ross-and-carrie-stay-home-coronavirus-edition) of the podcast Oh No Ross and Carrie has quite an entertaining survey of COVID-19 Conspiracy beliefs. A lot of people (myself included) have found it a bit of an amusing light in the current darkness.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Solokov on March 29, 2020, 04:54:07 PM

From a discussion about the US taking the top spot in covid19 infections:

Quote

Me: from my persepctive, it makes sense that this happened.

Friend: How does that make sense, the government should have done something sooner.

Me: What more could you want done? We were working with incomplete data and didn't exactly know what the hell was going on in china until the situation more or less completely deteriorated and a few doctors started letting the international medical community know what was going on, their social credit rating be damned.

Friend: I dunno, the chinese government seems to be handling it fairly well.

Me: Welding your ****ing citizens into their own homes is not an answer that won't receive getting shot at in response. the US is not a country you can do that in, additionally the WHO and various national health administrations are doubting the number coming from china have been real since mid February. The outbreak started in november and was allowed to fester.

Friend logs off discord at this point.

We actually haven't talked since then.

Also, my response to the conspiracy theories on it being a bio-weapon that got out of containment (especially say it came from the long rumored blacksite bio-weapon research site alleged to be in the Wuhan province of china): If that had happened the chinese government would have rolled into wuhan in November 2019 with a military containment unit and quietly purged everyone/everything that was potentially infected contaminated.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on March 29, 2020, 05:11:50 PM

Is there any chance we could just drop the conspirqcy theories once and for all and focus on the topic i.e. how does the situation make us personally feel?

I’m alternating between peaceful and panic, although less panic lately. The idea of living in an Exclusion Zone (at the moment the Uusimaa Region has a border towards rest of Finland) is so weird that it probably hasn’t really hit me yet. I have no need to cross in the foreseeable future, but the fact that I couldn’t if I wanted to is surreal.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Gwenno on March 29, 2020, 05:49:49 PM

Quote from: Jitter on March 29, 2020, 05:11:50 PM

Is there any chance we could just drop the conspirqcy theories once and for all and focus on the topic i.e. how does the situation make us personally feel?

Unless it is specifically to vent your frustrations, best to keep the discussion of conspiracy theories away from here (even when you disagree with them). If you guys' social media is anything like mine then you get enough of that already, and it is easy to let discussions get out of hand. To set some specific guidelines, I'll say that mentioning that you are upset about specific misinformation is okay as I expect this will be a contributing facet of people's overall stress (will edit the original post to add this as well as any other amendments that pop up over time).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mebediel on March 29, 2020, 06:36:18 PM

Quote from: Jitter on March 29, 2020, 05:11:50 PM

I’m alternating between peaceful and panic, although less panic lately. The idea of living in an Exclusion Zone (at the moment the Uusimaa Region has a border towards rest of Finland) is so weird that it probably hasn’t really hit me yet. I have no need to cross in the foreseeable future, but the fact that I couldn’t if I wanted to is surreal.

It sounds pretty surreal. Do people have any idea of when the region will stop being an exclusion zone, or is it that way indefinitely?
Also *hugs*

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: RanVor on March 29, 2020, 07:05:32 PM

Quote from: Jitter on March 29, 2020, 05:11:50 PM

Is there any chance we could just drop the conspirqcy theories once and for all and focus on the topic i.e. how does the situation make us personally feel?

Seconding. I personally hate conspiracy theorism (is that even a word?) with burning passion and merely hearing about it is enough to make me instantly angry at the entire world, so the less of it, the better for me and everybody in close proximity.

I don't really spend much time thinking about the pandemic, I'm mostly concerned with how it's making my already disastrous situation at the university exponentially worse. Objectively though, the circumstances are pretty awful, and my parents are very worried about everything that's going on, so the general atmosphere at my home is pretty tense. One side effect of the isolation is that my sleep schedule got completely devastated since I don't really have a reason to get up at regular hours anymore.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on March 29, 2020, 11:34:24 PM

Another small bright spot: our private health fund, which was due to put up its prices steeply on April 1, has postponed the rise for six months. This is useful, because we had expected to be unable to afford it and like many older Australians, to have to drop out of having health cover altogether. We now have another six months to try raising the money.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: euseevius on March 30, 2020, 03:34:07 AM

Quote from: Jitter on March 29, 2020, 05:11:50 PM

I’m alternating between peaceful and panic, although less panic lately. The idea of living in an Exclusion Zone (at the moment the Uusimaa Region has a border towards rest of Finland) is so weird that it probably hasn’t really hit me yet. I have no need to cross in the foreseeable future, but the fact that I couldn’t if I wanted to is surreal.

Uggh, it really does sound so surreal. All the hugs and stregth to you & lets hope people follow the government's orders, so that y'all don't have to stay as an Exclusion Zone longer than absolutely necessary.

I'm in a happy position where neither me nor any of my close relatives are living in Uusimaa, and I'm partially employed by my university, so I'm not at the risk of losing my income either. But what's taking a real toll on me is in fact the remote work. I hadn't realised how well I had learned to work at the office and rly not bring work home until now.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Lenny on March 30, 2020, 05:45:00 PM

One thing in all this that I'm trying not to think of but am anyway, is that I likely won't see my fiance until almost a year has passed since the last time we saw each other (August). Everything in government has gone a bit slow due to everything, and getting fiance in on a partner visa will take a few months (and I can't start on that until mid-April - I finally found a studio, only for six months though, but that should be enough to get fiance here). By that time it'll be July at least. We were originally planning on getting them here this Thursday, and then married the 18th. Feels a bit sour.

I'm trying to focus on all the things I can do right now, rather on what might have been, but it's difficult, especially at night. We've been waiting a very long time for this, we can stack on a few months on top of the years, but it's not fun.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on March 30, 2020, 08:31:54 PM

**Offers Lenny a safe long-distance hug** I do hope things sort out. Good luck to both of you! I am treating this situation as if it were wartime, and living through things as I can.

Having myself lived through the situation of long-distance matrimony long delayed, I most heartily sympathise (at least we managed the first wedding ceremony before our respective work required us to be on opposite sides of the planet for many months - being of very different faiths we actually had two entirely separate wedding ceremonies, several years apart). Something seems to have worked, because we are still married and still speaking to one another and glad of it after what is now nearer forty years than thirty. At the time people around us gave the marriage a week, since I was a young widow with five kids, he was a divorced man who had never had children and was still good mates with his first wife and her new partner, and our lifestyles, faiths, family backgrounds and preferences in where to live were about as different as it was possible to be. But we still smile to see one another when we wake in the morning.

May you two be as blessed as we have been.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: wavewright62 on April 01, 2020, 02:48:19 AM

I'm a reasonably solitary person, and have not been feeling socially deprived at all over this last week in lockdown. After all, I'm in almost daily contact with my daughter, I have you all in the fandom, and I'm very busy working, putting 9-10 hours a day at my ~~dining table~~ desk.
Then my brass band manager called me this arvo to see how I'm doing & chat for a minute, and I swear I unleashed a half-hour barrage of yakkity-yak at the poor woman. I guess I'm more socially deprived than I thought.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Noodles on April 02, 2020, 02:17:34 AM

Quote from: wavewright62 on April 01, 2020, 02:48:19 AM

I'm a reasonably solitary person, and have not been feeling socially deprived at all over this last week in lockdown. After all, I'm in almost daily contact with my daughter, I have you all in the fandom, and I'm very busy working, putting 9-10 hours a day at my ~~dining table~~ desk.
Then my brass band manager called me this arvo to see how I'm doing & chat for a minute, and I swear I unleashed a half-hour barrage of yakkity-yak at the poor woman. I guess I'm more socially deprived than I thought.

The exact same thing happened to me! I live with friends and a few people have been filtering back to the house as their home situations become untenable and I thought I'd been doing just fine with the two other people who were here for a week but then another person moved back and I just got a whole dang bucket of Feel Good Brain Juice and didn't stop talking for like an hour...two more people are going to move back in the next week or two and I'm very excited. new blood new blood!!!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Kyara on April 03, 2020, 06:14:12 AM

So I guess that we are all socially deprived at some point ? But we only realize this when we chat with people? I had the same feeling, after just a lab meeting by video mith my colleagues. I feel lighthearted now, even if I didn't feel any real lack.

Not to mention, that (it's horrible to say, I explain latter), but the current situation is a kind of dream for me.
I was lucky to be at my parents'house with my boyfriend for a weekend when the moving restriction was decided in France and we decided to stay there.
I have very rarely the opportunity to come back to see my parents and my boyfriend lives far away (6h drive away) and I can only see him on weekends (sometimes).

And now it has been three weeks that we can work and spend time together, not to mention that I can help my parents with their household chores. My father is a physiotherapist and clutched to his work, even if he is starting to get old, so I try to lightweight their burden by doing everything that is possible at home.
Never in my life did I think I could stay with them two months in a row, because of my work. The house is large so we each have our own space if necessary. There is a garden to enjoy being a bit outdoors. Yes, it is horrible to say but apart from my laboratory work which I miss, I am very happy now.

It's just my feeling. I feel guilty for being like this when thousands of people are dying everywhere. I'm just very lucky, but I don't want to regret either. Just ... enjoy. Because I can. And help elderlys around with their groceries, chatting with them by phone too (we managed to repair our neighbourhood old lady's glasses and she offers use a wine bottle, that was so cool).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mariiii on April 03, 2020, 11:36:32 AM

I understand your feelings Kyara, it's a little bit the same for me.

When the government announced the closure of schools and universities, I decided to go back to my parents' house and it was a very good decision because a couple of days later, the lockdown was announced. I'm missing my friends but in a way I am happy because I can spend a lot of time with my family, especially since I am suppose to go abroad for a 5-months internship from June so I won't be able to see them for a long time. I am also trying to not get overwhelmed by the work that teachers give us, but for the moment I manage to not have too much late work.

So yes I am feeling a bit guilty to be happy in this situation, when this disease causes so many deaths, but at the same time there nothing that I can really do except respecting the hygiene and containment rules to limit the spread of the virus. I am also really afraid about my internship, because it is suppose to begin in June and if the situation is not solved by then, it might get cancelled. So I am just waiting for this situation to get better and sending mental support to the medical staff and all the people whose work lead them to be in contact with the virus.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on April 03, 2020, 01:35:06 PM

I don't think people need to feel guilty about happiness. It's not as if your being unhappy would improve anybody else's situation. And it reads to me that you're doing what you're supposed to in order to support others and in order not to make the situation worse.

I'm really grateful to have so much of my work at home, and to have acreage to work on outside and just to be outdoors in whenever I please. And I do need to be aware that others are in much worse positions. But neither the gratefulness nor the awareness requires guilt.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mebediel on April 04, 2020, 04:13:04 PM

Seconding Thorny, although I understand the guilt. It's important to find joy in difficult times, and I don't think you need to feel guilty about finding those joys more easily than most people might.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on April 04, 2020, 08:14:01 PM

I know what you all mean about feeling a little guilty - I'm pretty happy with my situation. I'm in a beautiful, peaceful place where I can go out without bumping into anyone. I go to town once a week to stock up, work online, get lots of outdoor exercise, and wasn't all that social to begin with, so other than not knowing what day it is half the time, I'm doing well. I've checked in with all my friends and family, and everyone is doing fine. I have a spouse and two cats for entertainment, we chat with the neighbour from a safe distance once in a while, and the internet keeps me connected to others. I admire and deeply thank all the medical staff, grocery and pharmacy staff, truckers, and the other essential workers who are keeping the lights on and the internet functional.

The biggest effect for me is to throw my sabbatical plans into disarray - such a first world problem! I was planning to be in Norway, Iceland (maybe - that was not sabbatical-related and depended on a friend), Finland, Sweden, and the UK, all between early August and early November, but given the high odds of a second wave in the autumn I figure none of that's happening. It's going to have to be a "staybbatical", I guess I'll get around to fixing up a proper home office.

I'm so curious to see if/how this is going to permanently change our world. Again, that hopeful curiosity seems at odds with the hardships others are experiencing, but as thorny says, being miserable isn't going to help anyone. Maybe I'll find a way of helping people to assuage my guilt!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mebediel on April 04, 2020, 09:48:06 PM

CW for...idk morbidity? idk, this one feels like it needs a CW though:

Spoiler: show

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 04, 2020, 11:53:56 PM

Mebediel, all the yes to what you say. We need to remember to be kind to one another, to pitch in as we can while doing what we are able to for ourselves and our households. I am growing food and food plants for the Farmers Market, and spending a lot of time on the phone to young folk I know who have never lived through anything like this before, giving advice and suggestions for how to survive and help. I have survived a number of disasters and crises in a long and varied life, and know a bit about getting through them. And helping and caring about one another is a huge part of that, whether it is a cyclone, flood, storm, bushfire, power outage or pandemic. Good luck, everyone!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Keep Looking on April 05, 2020, 01:08:45 AM

Yes, one thing that I find comforting in this time is the knowledge that people can and have lived through times like this and worse.

Kyara and Mari, I feel like I'm in a similar situation to you guys right now - I'm fortunate in that my parents are still capable of earning money at this time, and doing schoolwork from home actually really suits the way I like to work (I'm a pretty self-directed person) - I'm finding it easier than going to school in person (plus it gets rid of the hour of travel time each way). I get to have some outdoors time whenever I take the dog for runs at the park or we take her down to the beach, and I can connect with my friends over the internet.

Before the schools closed, I felt extremely frustrated at the government and stressed, plus it was pretty scary going out to school with the risk of catching the virus (at that point, we still weren't allowed to miss assessments). But now things have fully shut down, I'm finding it a lot easier and my load of anxiety has reduced significantly.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 05, 2020, 04:39:48 AM

I was perhaps fortunate that I grew up among much older kin, some of whom had lived through serious horrors, including a greatgrandmother and greataunt who had survived the Irish famine and were still alive, though very old, when I was a kid (I’m 82 this week), and a grandfather who had been a field medic in the First World War, all of whom had advice and suggestions for surviving the things that they had lived through. I have found it useful.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on April 05, 2020, 09:09:11 AM

Oh, Mebediel, that's hard, having a friend living through that and no direct way to help. I suppose the best you can do is assure her that you are heeding her advice, and find small things to do to help where you are.

I'm on the board of directors for our local ski club, and getting very frustrated with some of my fellow board members. We closed the lodge a couple of weeks ago, but the trails are still being groomed, with lots of signage up reminding people to follow physical distancing guidelines, ski conservatively to avoid injury, and not linger around the trailhead. But recently the Chief Medical Officer of Health and health minister have both stepped up the advisories, asking people to not drive anywhere if not absolutely necessary. Some of the board feel that keeping the trails open encourages people to ignore that advice, others put more emphasis on the CMOH's advice to get outdoor exercise, and a huge debate has been raging over whether we should stop grooming. The pro-grooming folks refuse to ask the CMOH for advice because "she's busy with more important stuff." Several local doctors who ski recently posted on the facebook club members group saying it was time to stop grooming, but their opinions have been dismissed as "just their personal opinion, not medical advice," and more weight put on the various members who post to say thanks for keeping the trails open. Our communications people are increasingly uncomfortable with the situation, and are taking a lot of flack for pressing for getting guidance from the CMOH. Some of us feel that we should stop undermining the government's "stay home" message, there's only a few more weeks, tops, when grooming will even be possible - we could reinforce government messaging and save money for next year (I do hope things will be a bit more normal by then) and show some leadership, but the pro-grooming group includes the board president, so we've been shouted down. It's disheartening.

Whew, that turned into a bit of a vent. I feel for the communications folks, they're bearing the brunt of this. I logged out of my email so that I wouldn't be tempted to read any more of the discussion going on, I have marking and exam prep to do and it's very distracting. And now my coffee break is over, back to it! Ranting made me feel a bit better, anyway. :)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mebediel on April 05, 2020, 01:25:02 PM

Hearing about the kindnesses that people are doing for their communities near and far is really good to hear. Getting advice from people who have lived through terrible times before is helpful, but knowing that they're able and willing to share that knowledge is also comforting. So, if no one has told you this yet, Róisín, thanks for all you're doing!

Venting is good, Vulpes! Since things are changing so rapidly, hopefully people start listening to the no-grooming group soon before grooming becomes impossible anyway.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 05, 2020, 05:10:03 PM

Vulpes, good luck! And yeah, it helps to swear a bit when there is no answer acceptable to all the people involved!

Mebediel, thanks! Long experience suggests to me that everyone’s chances of getting through this are better if we care what happens to one another, and help as we can. Also, in miserable times I think we feel better if we can do even little things.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: DancingRanger on April 05, 2020, 08:58:54 PM

The lack of work and being home all the time is really starting to drag on my emotions and combined with the fact that I kinda had a fight with a friend and we haven't spoken in almost a week now, has made me feel really lost. I feel really drained. I have found Minna's stream and youtube videos to be oddly calming and a bit of a comfort to listen to.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Kyara on April 06, 2020, 05:39:09 AM

Thank you all for your thoughts on the situation. It is reassuring to know that other people are feeling like that. I feel a bit.... Lighter ?

Mebediel Even if you can't physically bring something, you should never underestimate the moral support you can provide. There will always be encouragement words in the back of your friend's mind when she is working (you know, when the brain is too tired and only able to remember a few things). The idea is to make that these little things as positive as possible, right?

DancingRanger: It's true that Minna's videos are relaxing. For me it's almost a form of ASMR. I'm sorry for the situation between your friend and you. It may be more complicated to discuss by writing/audio due to the confinement, but you can still set out to get things right. We can all argue, it happens and it is normal to be confused.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: itstricky on July 22, 2020, 11:01:33 PM

Later reply to this but could use a spot to talk about all of it. I am kind of new to the forum, I had posted a bit and got distracted because I moved to Japan. So I was there when everything started to happen. Actually I was working on an isolated farm when I got called home by my university. (very fun and wild trying to partake in international air travel around then, if I do say so myself)

Japan started to take everything very seriously back in early January. So I had the very unique experience of trying to caution friend back home (Chicago and Detroit USA, can I get a YIKES) about taking things seriously and being safe, only to get the usual responses that were super dismissive and upsetting! It was serious whiplash when they were nearly crying a month later begging me to come home as quickly as possible. I also got a few rants here and there from people telling me that Japan was secretly Worse and More Dangerous than the USA. (hah) (not that i'm saying its totally safe its just a whole different ballpark...) It was also uncomfortable coming home and being perceived as Dangerous because I had been on a plane. (not seeing family for several months and then being told to get in the car and not touch anyone upon meeting again is just uncomfortable, even if they were totally within reason)

(fun side story: they made me wash every single item on me and take a shower as soon as I got home. I have been rereading SSSS as a cope and it was a very similar experience to the decontamination showers they take)

I'm slowly coming to terms that this whole experience has been a bit traumatic... for everyone, which includes myself. I don't usually use words like that because it feels like I'm being too dramatic, but I find it necessary in this case to start feeling better. Not only was I forced into a particularly dangerous situation by being told I had to travel, but I picked up my life and moved out over the course of two days without saying goodbye. I went from feeling safe in a country where I could afford health care if I was sick, and bike anywhere I needed to if I had to buy food, to the chaos that was America in late March. (I had to fill out a survey the other day in which I was asked how often I eat fresh vegetables and I had to respond with "almost never")

I live alone (with my cat of course!) and don't have a car. Frankly I usually forget about the outside world these days unless I somehow have an opportunity to go grocery shopping, and then I do a quick news search. I think I'm starting to feel better but am very stressed as things start to open up and I prepare to go to school again. (!???)

I had been putting off my yearly read through of SSSS because I thought it might be upsetting but truly the most fun I have had is reading through the prologue. I definitely cope well with relatable stories, and I don't think anything I have consumed to date has captured exactly how I felt in early February as much as the prologue. Who knew that something I have been reading for years would become so relatable so suddenly! I was laughing at quips that have filled me with dread until this point.

This has turned into quite a long post! I haven't had much of an opportunity to talk about everything since I came home (except for with my cat of course!) so its refreshing to know that other humans may be on the receiving end of all of this. I hope everyone is taking time for their hearts and brains (and souls) just as much as they are taking care of their health and safety!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on July 23, 2020, 12:36:19 AM

Yesterday my sister visited (after a fashion) to give me a cloth mask that she'd ordered. It was the first time that we'd spoken face to face (sorta) since April - we'd set up an agreement whereby I'd call every day to report in. Philippa has taken the precautions very seriously, wise soul that she is. Apart from that, I have pals on Skype-chat, and another friend who calls mainly to express his thoughts on the pandemic and wonder what will happen to America.

All these make me think how rarely I've spoken to people beyond the bare minimum of shopping. On Monday, I remember how I felt better for a woman taking the time to thank me for making space on the pavement for her roller-blading daughter; a little exchange that's become meaningful.

I remember, too, the times I'd speak my thoughts on what's happening, and the phrase I so frequently uttered; "This is a time like no other." I didn't mean it literally. What I meant is that for just about everyone, in the West at least, there is nothing to compare with COVID-19. Eight decades have passed since the Second World War began, and a century since the (misnamed) Spanish Flu of 1918-1920. Generations that lived in the fear of nuclear destruction find that catastrophe had come upon them quietly, like... well, a thief in the night.

I have a slight advantage in dealing with this situation, inasmuch as I'm used to spending a lot of time in my own head, letting my imagination run free, and rendering them into stories. Róisín, I know, is coping by doing what she always does; the right thing by others.

Be well, everyone.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mebediel on July 23, 2020, 02:19:11 PM

Quote from: itstricky on July 22, 2020, 11:01:33 PM

can I get a YIKES

YIKES
That is a lot to go through, with the travelling, moving, whiplash, and getting ready for school starting back up. Take care of yourself!

And Yastreb, it's good to hear that you've been able to talk to others a bit more recently, even though as you say you're able to deal with this situation better than a lot of others might.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on July 23, 2020, 02:41:30 PM

I have been surprised how soon this thread went silent, so I’m very glad to see it resurrected! Particularly I’m surprised with myself, I assumed I would be writing several times into this. I was very distraught at first and I usually unload by sharing.

I have been coping better than I would have thought at the start. Now, I’m living with my family, i.e. husband and two teenagers plus a doggo, we have enough space for everyone and there haven’t been actual lockdowns in Finland so we have been able to go outside throughout. So, I’ve had it very easy compared to many others. At the moment I’m no more than mildly worried on personal level, although the overall situation is getting worse all the time and I of course worry for the countries where the situation is bad. Obviously we may also be facing a second wave, but surprisingly enough I haven’t been very worried about it yet.

I usually tend to worry, maybe I ran out in the spring.

Itstricky, You have had quite an experience, no wonder you feel traumatized! I’m glad we can help you by being here.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on July 23, 2020, 08:38:56 PM

Itstricky, that sounds like a really unsettling experience, all the chaos of leaving and travelling and then... solitude. It sounds like you're coping well, it's cool that SSSS (and its fans) have helped.

Yastreb, your meaningful little exchange resonated with me. I was in my car rubbing alcohol on my hands prior to taking off my mask after grocery shopping, when another vehicle pulled up beside me, driver's side to driver's side. It was a colleague who I hadn't seen in person since mid-March. He had a quick question, but we ended up chatting "country conference" style for about 10 minutes. It was all pretty inconsequential, but it was very nice to chat face to face, even at 2 m distance. We rib one another a lot, so there was a lot of laughter in those few minutes. I find myself valuing those types of interaction more these days.

Jitter, I like your hypothesis of running out of worry. Maybe that's what happened to me, I'm normally a fretter but I'm feeling quite content.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: itstricky on July 24, 2020, 01:02:27 AM

I saw this prose by Mary Oliver recently and it sat well with me, I think its great to allow yourself to be content in these times. Sitting and worrying doesn't do us, or the overall situation, any good. I think a lot of us feel like we should be resisting it because everything looks glum but maybe that's not necessary.

Quote

If you suddenly and unexpectedly feel joy, don’t hesitate. Give in to it. There are plenty of lives and whole towns destroyed or about to be. We are not wise, and not very often kind. And much can never be redeemed. Still, life has some possibility left. Perhaps this is its way of fighting back, that sometimes something happens better than all the riches or power in the world. It could be anything, but very likely you notice it in the instant when love begins. Anyway, that’s often the case. Anyway, whatever it is, don’t be afraid of its plenty. Joy is not made to be a crumb.

Its great to allow those little moments be exciting and happy if they are meant to be.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on July 24, 2020, 01:38:30 AM

That is a wise thought! Worth remembering.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: RanVor on July 24, 2020, 07:32:34 AM

Quote from: Vulpes on July 23, 2020, 08:38:56 PM

Jitter, I like your hypothesis of running out of worry. Maybe that's what happened to me, I'm normally a fretter but I'm feeling quite content.

Welp, I seem to have an infinite supply of worry, because I'm nowhere near being calm these days. Or ever, for that matter.

Also,

Quote from: itstricky on July 22, 2020, 11:01:33 PM

can I get a YIKES

YIKES. That's one hell of an unpleasant experience you've gone through, itstricky. You have every right to be traumatized.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Auxivele on August 10, 2020, 08:31:39 PM

I will admit, getting a haircut during a pandemic and a hurricane was not my brightest moment. In our defense, we didn't expect the rains to hit until a couple hours later, but they actually hit just as we were leaving. We're fine, we just lost power for a couple days and there were a lot of downed trees and branches on the roads but nothing was damaged.

It's interesting going outside now, since I so rarely left the house these past couple months. A lot of people are good about social distancing and wearing masks, but then there are some people who completely disregard everything and stand right behind you at the farmers' market without wearing their mask properly (I'm not mad about it, why would you think that /s).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on August 17, 2020, 02:46:04 AM

Here's an interesting article about the Pandemic of 1918 to 1920, and what should have been learned from it, but was forgotten.

https://crafty.diply.com/139417/1918-pandemic-guidelines-reveal-that-people-werent-listening-bac (https://crafty.diply.com/139417/1918-pandemic-guidelines-reveal-that-people-werent-listening-bac)

(https://img.srgcdn.com/e//Ukc1Q2NTTU1zZHE2QnR1dFZYQXkuanBn.jpg)

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

"History repeats itself; the first time as tragedy, the second as farce.”
Karl Marx

"They are dying. That’s true. It is what it is."
Donald Trump

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on August 17, 2020, 05:49:43 AM

Yastreb, thank you for putting this up. So very true!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on August 17, 2020, 11:44:55 PM

And a nasty piece of info from Utah: mink on a farm there were tested after they started dropping dead, and turned up positive for Covid, also having infected some of their handlers. We already knew cats could catch it. I wonder what other animals are vulnerable? Scary.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lumilaulu on August 18, 2020, 01:45:59 AM

Yeah, that's happened at least twice in the Netherlands, IIRC. There have been a few instances of dogs getting it too.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Lenny on August 18, 2020, 04:31:52 AM

There are in fact now 30 European Mink farms that have been infected with COVID-19 in the Netherlands. It's worrisome, the European mink is already critically endangered as is. That said, they seem to be infected from human contact mostly, so keeping them away from us and us away from them seems to be enough, and they've been testing preventatively on minks that have died for any reason in order to catch it and place necessary regulations in place as early as possible - current spread is within estimates. And there aren't really any wild ones here to spread it among.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: amaranthineamusement on August 18, 2020, 10:30:53 AM

Quote from: Róisín on August 17, 2020, 11:44:55 PM

And a nasty piece of info from Utah: mink on a farm there were tested after they started dropping dead, and turned up positive for Covid, also having infected some of their handlers. We already knew cats could catch it. I wonder what other animals are vulnerable? Scary.

I know dogs have been known to catch it. : (

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on August 18, 2020, 02:40:07 PM

Have there ben cases of dogs getting sick with it? In the beginning there were some cases where a dog tested positive, but didn’t have any symptoms.

Are there farms of European minks in the Netherlands? From Finland the European mink (which is not called mink at all in Finnish) has disappeared in the 1950s although there was a single sighting in 1992. But American minks, which are farmed for fur and have from time to time escaped from the farms, are a very troublesome species here.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Auxivele on August 18, 2020, 03:47:04 PM

I heard dogs can carry it but not get sick. When the news came out a couple months ago it was also uncertain if they could pass it back on to humans, but I have to admit I haven't been following the story that closely. It might've changed.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: phocena on August 18, 2020, 09:12:21 PM

I think in the beginning I was way too optimistic about how much work I could handle this summer, and I'm so drained right now. I'm doing an academic internship, but unlike anyone else in the course I have not met any of the prerequisites and got in on a recommendation. So I've been thrown in the deep end where I'm trying to write a research paper using programming languages and software that I have little to no exposure with, while stuck in isolation. So yeah, Covid really hasn't been fun.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on August 18, 2020, 10:47:11 PM

Quote from: Jitter on August 18, 2020, 02:40:07 PM

Have there ben cases of dogs getting sick with it? In the beginning there were some cases where a dog tested positive, but didn’t have any symptoms.

Quote from: Auxivele on August 18, 2020, 03:47:04 PM

I heard dogs can carry it but not get sick.

Unfortunately, not always asymptomatic.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200731/first-us-dog-with-covid-19-has-died
(https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200731/first-us-dog-with-covid-19-has-died)

Or maybe not. They're not actually sure what he died of:

Quote

July 31, 2020 -- Buddy, a 7-year-old German shepherd, that was the first dog to test positive for the coronavirus in the United States, has died after being sick for three months, CNN reported Thursday.

Whether the dog died from the coronavirus or lymphoma isn't clear.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lumilaulu on August 19, 2020, 01:39:25 AM

30 mink farms already? Wow. Seems like mink are more susceptible than cats or dogs. I also guess they're American mink rather than European.

But even without this, those farms would only have been allowed to exist for a few more years anyway.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on August 20, 2020, 01:18:57 PM

Quote from: phocena on August 18, 2020, 09:12:21 PM

I think in the beginning I was way too optimistic about how much work I could handle this summer, and I'm so drained right now. I'm doing an academic internship, but unlike anyone else in the course I have not met any of the prerequisites and got in on a recommendation. So I've been thrown in the deep end where I'm trying to write a research paper using programming languages and software that I have little to no exposure with, while stuck in isolation. So yeah, Covid really hasn't been fun.

I think a lot of people bit off more than they could chew. Sounds great - locked down, nowhere to go, nothing to do, easy to get lots done. But everything seems to take extra long, often for no obvious reason! Don't be afraid to look for help - but you don't have to (metaphorically) flail your arms and yell help. E.g. show someone else in the course some code and ask what they think of your approach, or describe a particular task you're struggling with and ask if they can see where you've gone astray. Most people love the chance to demonstrate their knowledge... and you might just get "gee I didn't think of doing it that way, if you tweak this it works better than what I was doing" in reply.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on September 06, 2020, 03:29:17 PM

My son got sore throat, runny nose and cough on Thursday so we had to take him out of school. He got worse so that on Saturday we had him tested for COVID-19. Luckily the result came in fast, and even better it was negative. I haven’t really been personally worried, but of course when he was getting feverish Saturday night, I couldn’t help but wonder. But so, all is well.

We are continuing working from home. It suits me well, but it would be great to meet some colleagues! I wouldn’t mind being at the office, but I don’t want to commute by public transport. Maybe I’ll splurge on a taxi one day and go to the office. Weird what kind of things may seem like a luxury!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on September 06, 2020, 05:32:07 PM

Big sigh of relief on your behalf, Jitter. That must have been a bit nerve-wracking. Very glad all is well.

A few weeks ago I met a friend for lunch at a cafe with a nice patio, and we both commented how luxurious it seemed. This whole situation has certainly made me look at things very differently.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: wavewright62 on September 07, 2020, 03:34:36 AM

I get what you mean about the feeling of undue luxury of what we've taken for granted. My apartment building is perched on a ridge, so every foray ends with a slog uphill to get home. (I do not have a car nor a place to put one.)
We have only just been allowed mass transit for non-essential purposes, albeit with compulsory masking and half the seats marked off-limits. Getting my big weekly grocery shop up the hill is such a luxury taking the bus.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mica Hind on November 25, 2020, 04:52:08 PM

My thoughts have generally been along the line of:

"Well this puts play to anyone on here insistent that the UK could survive the Rash...."
(I still think Scottish Islands would do okay though, but not the highlands - in fact what I thought would happen did happen, loads of English twats drove North to 'get away' from Covid and just put pressure on rural services not equipped to deal with large volumes. Result - Trolls everywhere :P )

My second thought was:

"Yeah, I'm pretty convinced now that New Zealand does have a post-Rash population and is not part of the 'Silent World,' at least South Island, anyway."
Not that anyone in the Nordics is likely to be aware of that.

Also, seeing Sweden's response (or lack thereof) to the real-world Pandemic, initially, its not hard to see why it didn't manage to keep a larger population in SSSS!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on December 02, 2020, 09:11:26 PM

Mica, have you seen Onnenlintu’s delightful fanfic ‘The Man From the Waves’, in which an Expedition from New Zealand finds Norway? It is on Archive of Our Own, and well worth a read.

And I think Sweden’s response to Covid was unwise. The trouble with the concept of ‘herd immunity’ is that you lose a lot of people along the way there, usually from the most vulnerable parts of the population.

And here in South Australia, husband and I have just tested clear of Covid. He gets hay fever, sinusitis and nose bleeds in the dust, smoke and pollen of our summers here, and the local medical clinic recently had several Covid cases come through at times when we were there having husband’s dressings changed, which happens twice or thrice a week. So when we last had that done the nurse noticed that he was slightly sniffly and had had a nosebleed, so raced us off for testing. Just got the test results back, and we are clear. Sighs of relief!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on January 11, 2021, 09:31:39 PM

My sister received a positive test. My parents are negative. Mine hasn’t come yet, but they don’t call you if you’re negative, so there is a possibility that I’m negative too. At least I hope it is so. It doesn’t make it any easier though, because we live in one house and we can still get the virus at any time. I feel like that “random mage” on page 338. You never really know if that thing is within you or not. :onni:

Title: Re: MayCovid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on January 11, 2021, 11:09:18 PM

May the Fates watch over you always, Annuil. We are all with you.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on January 12, 2021, 08:22:12 AM

Thanks, Yastreb, that is comforting :D

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Mirasol on January 12, 2021, 11:08:50 AM

Oh no! May your sister get well soon, and may the rest of you stay healthy!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: moredhel on January 12, 2021, 03:41:27 PM

Best wishes for all of you Annuil.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on January 12, 2021, 05:35:36 PM

Annuil, do you have your results yet?

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on January 12, 2021, 08:16:31 PM

Since I did not receive a call from our local healthcare, I am negative. Also, thanks for your support, guys! Really appreciate it :)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: midwestmutt on January 12, 2021, 10:54:43 PM

Take care Annuil. Double up on the sanitary protocols.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on January 12, 2021, 11:04:48 PM

Quote from: midwestmutt on January 12, 2021, 10:54:43 PM

Take care Annuil. Double up on the sanitary protocols.

Yup, it’s kind of crazy now, as far as using the bathroom on the opposite side of the house and thinking every time before touching anything :'D

Thanks!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: wavewright62 on January 13, 2021, 03:38:33 AM

Whew, good for you Annuil!
The extra-infectious strain from the UK is here in NZ, as well as another from South Africa, but thus far neither has penetrated managed isolation into the community. Thus far. A lot of folk have gotten complacent, which worries me greatly, but Christmas and New Year's are now at least two weeks gone. That gives me some ease.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on January 13, 2021, 11:08:24 AM

Our situation is very much like yours, wave! We have about 50 cases of the UK variant, all related to the same chain of infections and presumably contained, and two cases of the SA one. And it seems the holidays have not resulted in a peak in infections. Vaccinations are going slowly, but are ongoing.

Right at this moment I feel like a bit of a cold coming on, we'll see what's what. I get this way a lot and usually it doesn't bother me. Now it does.

Annuil, good to hear you are negative! But like you mentioned, it's an inevitable "at least for now" situation. We are rooting for you!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on February 06, 2021, 08:01:11 AM

Heh. I have to admit that I had not yet noticed the new upside of my habit to make a grocery list beforehand (https://www.collectedcurios.com/sequentialart.php?s=1181).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Grade E cat on February 09, 2021, 03:16:52 PM

I needed to check a fanfic I had written in early 2018 for the name of a minor OC for whom I found a spot in my current story. The opening lines of one the two possible stories in which he could have appeared wound up accidentally prophetic, it looks like:

"Helena couldn’t believe this had happened. She never thought that she would be hunting for beasts in Mora. What made her the sickest was how so many had gotten inside the Outer Mora walls in the first place: a handful of sheltered adult non-immunes convinced that the Rash was a fabrication and an excuse to restrict their liberty of movement. "

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on February 09, 2021, 03:56:53 PM

Grade E Cat, that sounds like an awfully familiar talk... all this sounds too familiar... Like, start rereading SSSS and you'll understand those people way better than a few years ago, before it all took place in our world. Sometimes we discuss with my family the possibility that COVID was a human-created virus, because of how it finds weak spots in people's bodies and attacks them and how wonderfully it managed to get rid of everyone pass the retiring age. O_O

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on February 17, 2021, 07:44:42 AM

I'm an aviation enthusiant from way back, and I was watching a video of an old and respected workhorse that I remember flying on back in my younger days, a Fokker F-27 Friendship, landing at Blenheim Airport in New Zealand. It moved me to comment on the Friendship and the Electra, another turboprop from that time, and then I added this rumination (emphasis added).

"[The] only planes in the sky where I live (apart from helicopters and Cessna-types) are short-haul turboprops like the Saab 340 and the Fairchild Metroliner, and it's going to stay like that during the pandemic. It's almost like the jet engine hasn't been invented."

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on February 17, 2021, 07:58:20 AM

Quote from: Yastreb on February 17, 2021, 07:44:42 AM

"It's almost like the jet engine hasn't been invented."

[lives (and thus home-offices) near a military airbase and cannot quite confirm the impression]

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: PaperArtillery on February 18, 2021, 11:01:57 AM

Weird observation, but after I've been stuck at home after I finally got around to catching it (it kicked my butt for a week or so, but the aftereffects are also quite suck even weeks later), it's kind of refreshing to see the whole area also stuck at home by ice and snow (Virginia, USA).

I'm pretty incensed about the callous manner in which people have been insisting on schools and businesses reopening before teachers and medical personnel have had a chance to be even 90% vaccinated, so I'm kind of a "this is a sign from the gods that you're being idiots" with all the winter weather forcing schools to close again. Or maybe I'm just petty. Heh.

The United States has been mishandling this mess from the start, and the new SA variant just reared its head in Connecticut. Oh boy.

Side note: it's kind of mirthlessly funny to read the prologue to SSSS right now, given...well, Covid. Rant over.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Annuil on February 18, 2021, 11:43:34 AM

I cannot say I blame US, at least it’s doing better than Russia, who at first made weird laws about literally the amount of steps you can make outside of your house (I am exaggerating, but just a tiny bit) and then they just said that we defeated covid (just because), so we can reopen now... For some reason people still are getting sick and dying, the hospitals are filled to the top, but no! Covid is gone, right!.. At least the US laws about covid are 80% reasonable (the rest 20% of them could have been made better). Sorry, I am just scared for my family and friends back in Russia (I am currently living in Michigan, USA). Laws in Virginia may be different from the laws of Michigan, but altogether it doesn’t seem to be that bad, it could have been worse.
Butter good! :lalli:

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: PaperArtillery on February 18, 2021, 12:27:09 PM

Quote from: Annuil on February 18, 2021, 11:43:34 AM

I cannot say I blame US, at least it%u2019s doing better than Russia, who at first made weird laws about literally the amount of steps you can make outside of your house (I am exaggerating, but just a tiny bit) and then they just said that we defeated covid (just because), so we can reopen now... For some reason people still are getting sick and dying, the hospitals are filled to the top, but no! Covid is gone, right!.. At least the US laws about covid are 80% reasonable (the rest 20% of them could have been made better). Sorry, I am just scared for my family and friends back in Russia (I am currently living in Michigan, USA). Laws in Virginia may be different from the laws of Michigan, but altogether it doesn%u2019t seem to be that bad, it could have been worse.
Butter good! :lalli:

I must kindly beg to disagree. The US has badly mismanaged the whole situation because "MUH FREEDOMS" not to wear a mask/social distance/stop partying. Without getting too political, all I can say is that there's been entirely too much ignorance on the part of policymakers who are just all about the economy and not, y'know, human lives, despite repeated insistence by scientists and medical professionals conflicting with "let's reopen and save our corporate profits". It's especially painful for me because, as a FEMA disaster liaison for the Virginia Army National Guard almost 10 years ago, this is stuff we came up with contingency plans for and they were never implemented.

EDIT: That's not to say that Russia is doing any semblance of a good job. I trust their reporting of cases about as far as I could throw a bottle of vodka, which is to say, not at all, because I wouldn't throw a bottle of vodka.

It's just so many levels of sad, and people are dying. The county I currently live in in Virginia (not my birth/hometown, I moved to Richmond area) has a ton of cases but few deaths and so people are shrugging it off, but also this county has a fairly wealthy white population that can afford care. Other parts of the state, and the US in general, are not doing so great.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Grade E cat on February 18, 2021, 03:00:46 PM

I think all countries have at least one aspect on which they are doing worse than others, including the US. France is still quite "to reduce your paperwork load, please fill this form", so the start of the vaccination campaign was greatly slowed down by the requirement of consent forms for the residents of retirment homes and the families of those unfit to make the decision themselves in hope to win reluctant and undecided people over, which temporarily made the whole system inadequate for the part of the population that was more than ready to get vaccinated. And after all that trouble, we need to deal with the shortage of doses like everybody else.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: PaperArtillery on February 18, 2021, 03:35:41 PM

Quote from: Grade E cat on February 18, 2021, 03:00:46 PM

I think all countries have at least one aspect on which they are doing worse than others, including the US

We've been doing almost everything wrong, is the problem. Reluctance to lock down, reluctance to enforce mask-wearing more than a suggestion, reluctance to enforce a travel ban even within the US...all of it's been a disaster. We've had plans for this for years and nothing got implemented because "oh no what if we p*#@ off our constituents" in most traditionally "red" (conservative) states. People still insist on going out and partying, going to bars, having large gatherings for holidays, &c.

It's just a case of "if I turn a blind eye to the problems, it's fine" at minimum, and at worse, a "this was engineered by communism and Chinese influence" conspiracy theory here in America.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Lenny on February 22, 2021, 05:15:29 AM

I really am losing it, argh.

I just wanna be able to do stuff. I want to start on driving lessons, I want to go to the pub with my uni friends and enjoy the Irish folk music there, I want to go to the beach and stay a few nights, I want to visit my mum on her birthday, I want to see my grandparents and have coffee with them without putting them at risk.

The driving lessons thing is irking me most. Since I can't drive atm and we don't have a car, the only way to get places is via public transport or getting other people to pick me up. That makes doing things like seeing my family even riskier, so I just don't do them. But I can't work on getting a licence (other than theory) because everything's closed.

But at the same time as all of that, I just want to do nothing. I'm not sure I'd be able to make myself start lessons even if it were possible. It's rubbish, haha.

...actually, now that I'm writing this out, I think I really need to get my ADHD meds sorted out. The wanting to do things but not wanting to do anything is much too similar to unmedicated me from years ago, and since I moved cities in the middle of a pandemic my pharmacy/doctor situation still isn't sorted out correctly and I've been without meds for months.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on March 24, 2021, 03:01:35 AM

I've been baking bread from scratch for a year now. It's surprisingly easy and tastes a lot better than the stuff from the store. I may never buy bread from a store again.

I was always an introvert but the last year has made me actively dread trying to re-integrate into "society" when All This™ is over. If there's one thing this last year has done it's shown us some important revelations about ourselves, our family members, and our friends. It's been depressingly enlightening to see what kind of people some of them really are. :(

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on March 28, 2021, 10:10:10 AM

The isolation of pandemic measures is starting to really wear on me. Where I live, we have a curfew, which has just gotten tighter, and every other week they close or reopen one thing or another. This makes little difference to me anyway since I've been staying away from crowded places and significant unnecessary health risks by choice - such as eating out - (more out of concern for others than for myself), but the flipflopping of regulations contributes to everything feeling uncertain and stressful.

The problem is, I've always been an introvert with many of my friendships being online and long distance. I work from home, and the sport I was doing is close contact so untenable during the pandemic, so virtually almost all the reasons I had for going out have collapsed. I've become very sedentary and feel isolated (I live with a good friend and that's a real help but he's just one person, besides we are at a point where we already rely on each other in slightly unhealthy ways for a variety of reasons), and my mental health has been taking a bit of a nose dive this year. It's easy to start feeling like your life has no point when you find little enjoyment in it, you have a job that feels non-essential, and the local friends you have are almost impossible to convince to meet in any form, even for just a walk or other outdoor activities. Access to the vaccines here is still slow, we are all trying to get it and I think it will be better once more people in my local groups get it in terms of getting them to meet, but I don't know how long it is until then. I've been commenting online more, in an attempt to make up for socialisation that I'm not getting otherwise, I suppose, and I'm not exactly comfortable with that. It's so difficult to make healthy choices when it comes to exercise, food, socialising with all the limitations in place and it hits even harder when you're neurodivergent and were struggling with these things to begin with (I really empathize with @Lenny's post above).

Anyway I'll probably be fine, I just wanted to vent a little bit. Thank you for providing a place for this.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: tzelly on March 28, 2021, 06:14:29 PM

Something I did not expect to happen with all the lock-downs, panic, isolation, etc... was a lot of time for reflection and interspersion. With all the sadness and frustration, I would like to share that some good has come of it, at least for myself.

I've learned a lot about myself and my SO, and I am so grateful to be living with them and being by their side through all of this garbage. I've moved out with them a few years before the pandemic and my family HEAVILY judged me for that.
_{Side note: family turned super religious in my early 20s and wanted me to play my assigned role as female and marry a man they wanted and I ran off with my female presenting best friend and platonic life partner. \o/}
I still questioned if I made the right chose up until the lock-down started last year. Since then, 0 doubts. We've had many nights of deep discussions about psychology, politics, different world views (they come from a more agnostic upbringing), mbti and what not.
And with how my family has reacted to the lock down and turn to blame games and skirting the rules beyond what is acceptable, I am so glad I am not stuck there with them. Now I get to continue to learn the benefits of found family instead of settling for a toxic one.

I am also a heavy introvert and the move to working from home (and not needing to be around other people) has been a nice change for me. I joke for years with my friends that if I had my way, I would be a hikikomori (a japans term that refers to complete social isolation that is self imposed) and this pandemic as shown that I was correct for the most part. Its strange, but its nice to not have to panic about going to social events or feel guilt for not seeing someone in months/years. I feel like this is something that I will have to address at some point..

Anyways, I know not everyone is as lucky with whom they were stuck with and I wish them all the best and I really do hope it ends soon. (though that hope is the thickness of rice paper) stay safe!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 07, 2021, 09:23:42 PM

Well, I got my second vaccine shot yesterday and my thoughts and feelings about it are...
Glad I got it but I was expecting mild symptoms like everyone else not a 101° (32.8C) fever. Ugh... I hope y'all fared better than me.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 07, 2021, 10:17:07 PM

Quote from: Opaque on May 07, 2021, 09:23:42 PM

Well, I got my second vaccine shot yesterday and my thoughts and feelings about it are...
Glad I got it but I was expecting mild symptoms like everyone else not a 101° (32.8C) fever. Ugh... I hope y'all fared better than me.

Yikes! I'm sorry you're experiencing all that. I don't know how old you are but I read an article about a week ago (that I really wish I'd bookmarked) that was saying the more severe symptoms seem to be more common in younger people than older people and nobody really knows why. The article also said that people who were suffering from "Long Covid" saw their symptoms ease considerably (with a few recovering completely!) after they got their vaccines... and nobody really knows why.

There's still so much to learn about this disease. :(

I got my 2nd shot this past Tuesday and didn't experience any side effects other than a sore arm. I felt like someone had punched me really hard. With a hammer. It sorted itself out by the next day though.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 08, 2021, 08:22:16 AM

A 101° fever is kinda bad but it's not the worst thing. I had kittens around to help me feel better (One is currently biting my phone as I write this). I haven't heard about how people react to the vaccine based on age. That's interesting, I may have to read up on that. I'm 31 so still youngish. My brother is a year older and he barely got sick at all with the vaccine. Just some minor aches and pains. Maybe I just got unlucky.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on May 08, 2021, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 07, 2021, 10:17:07 PM

<snip>the more severe symptoms seem to be more common in younger people than older people and nobody really knows why. The article also said that people who were suffering from "Long Covid" saw their symptoms ease considerably (with a few recovering completely!) after they got their vaccines... and nobody really knows why.

There's still so much to learn about this disease. :(

I'm guessing the strength of the reaction to the vaccine is related to the strength of the immune response - and older people generally have a weaker immune response to vaccines. That's why there's a different flu vaccine for people over 70(?) with an adjuvant to increase their response and improve efficacy.

It's really interesting that the vaccine helps with long covid. Understanding that may really help with understanding the disease itself, perhaps also how to treat covid to prevent the longer-term symptoms.

Opaque, I hope you're feeling better. On the bright side, having a strong reaction suggests that your body is mounting a meaningful immune response! At least that's what I told myself when I got the second shot of the shingles vaccine and felt feverish, nauseated, and dizzy for 24 hours.

All this leads to mixed feelings on the vaccine - I'm so looking forward to getting it (less worry!) but also dreading it (I'm going to feel like crap!).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 08, 2021, 11:14:47 AM

Thanks for concern, guys! Yes, I do feel better. Not 100% but better. That fever lasted a good part of the day but broke just before 10pm. I just had to lay in bed being a sweaty mess all night. I'm still going to take it easy today but I'm feeling well enough to clean the barn (which I didn't do yesterday).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: SkyWhalePod on May 08, 2021, 11:34:11 AM

Holy heck, 101F! I've heard things similar to what other people are saying, that the young get hit harder and that the strength of one's immune system seems to be connected to the punch behind the second vaccine. I'm hearing mainly that Moderna is the one with the strong second-dose side effects. I haven't heard that the Pfizer second dose hits very hard.

I have a friend who recently received his second Moderna shot -- I believe he's about 30? (I've never actually asked.) He took an Ibuprofen/aspirin or two before receiving the shot, and at least one at some point after, and he said it really helped. He didn't feel any debilitating symptoms. It was advice his mother and sister received when they were chatting with a stranger-who-turned-out-to-be-a-doctor on a trip to Las Vegas or somewhere a few months ago. I'm receiving my second Moderna dose in six days, I'll follow that advice and let you guys know how it goes. You know, if I survive >:D

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 08, 2021, 12:11:00 PM

I did take an ibuprofen but all it did for me was make me able to eat a few bites of soup. It didn't help with anything else though. Make sure you have cute critters to cuddle with to make you feel better. And drink plenty of water.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 08, 2021, 12:53:39 PM

I may have gotten the information in my last post from two separate articles because I'm not finding anything that covers both of those issues now (the side effects in younger being more common compared to older people *AND* the easing of long-Covid symptoms) but here's an article covering the long Covid issue:

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/can-a-covid-19-vaccine-improve-symptoms-for-people-with-long-covid#Science-behind-vaccine-effects-on-long-COVID-not-clear

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on May 08, 2021, 02:09:54 PM

Quote from: SkyWhalePod on May 08, 2021, 11:34:11 AM

He took an Ibuprofen/aspirin or two before receiving the shot, and at least one at some point after, and he said it really helped.

In the USA, at least, they're advising people NOT to take anti-inflammatories before getting vaccinated; they think it might reduce the response to the vaccine in some cases.

ETA: Quite a lot of people, of any age, have few or no side-effects in any case; so it may not even have helped, because he might not have had any problems anyway.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 08, 2021, 05:08:58 PM

Quote from: thorny on May 08, 2021, 02:09:54 PM

In the USA, at least, they're advising people NOT to take anti-inflammatories before getting vaccinated; they think it might reduce the response to the vaccine in some cases.

Yeah, I didn't want to take any medicine because of that but feeling as bad as I did after the shot I couldn't help it. Luckily the fever doesn't last too long for those who get one and is usually not as bad as what I got.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on May 08, 2021, 05:58:15 PM

Finland prolonged the time gap between the shots to three months, so I will be getting my second shot about 3 weeks from now. The interesting thing is that I got the AZ first, but since it has now been banned for my age group, I’ll be getting a different one! Most likely Pfizer. I am not sure I’m happy with this, but that’s the way it’s going to be. I get fever easily so I’m expecting to get rather miserable for a while. With the AZ I only got some soreness in the arm.

Now there of course isn’t any data as to how good my immunity will be after a mixed vaccination, but I guess it’s going to be somewhat helpful. And chances are we’ll be needing further shots later anyways...

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: wavewright62 on May 08, 2021, 09:04:41 PM

NZ is doing their rollout more slowly than other countries, mostly because our borders are still closed and we have to wait for our shipments of vaccine. It's confirmed most of us will be getting the Pfizer one now. The border workers and families are pretty much all done now and the second tier of healthcare workers and residents of aged care facilities is well underway. The third group of elderly and chronically ill (where I fall) is supposed to get started in May but realistically I probably won't get mine until late June or July. The populace in general is to get theirs by the end of the year.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on May 09, 2021, 12:32:10 AM

Good news for NZ, Wavewright! I would prefer the Pfizer, it certainly seems safer, but we will get what we get, and I suppose it is better to save the safer vaccines for younger people. It may also be that the immune systems of older people have been exposed to enough things over time that they are less likely to have an extreme reaction. I am somewhat concerned about the reaction for myself, since I react badly to the flu vaccine, but to nowhere near the level that my cousin and two of my kids do: they had the full anaphylactic shock thing and wound up in hospital, but the other kids were okay. Star is usually fine with vaccines, and has had his first AstraZeneca shot. He is in hospital with other problems, so he is in the best place if something else goes wrong, and he seems to be okay with the vaccine reaction after a week - nothing more than a sore arm and slight fever so far. I am hopeful.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on May 09, 2021, 04:01:59 AM

I'm fully vaccinated now (Pfizer). I was perfectly fine after the first dose - helped a friend renovate her house, lifting heavy things etc - right the day after, but after the second shot (which was two days ago) I got a low grade malaise and muscle soreness that didn't seem to improve with ibuprofen. I just waited it out and am feeling pretty much normal today.

I'm surprised that as a relatively young person with no chronic illness (and also not a "key worker") living in Eastern Europe, I was able to get the vaccine sooner than some in more Western parts. Dealing with this pandemic has really been all over the place, huh.

Speaking of access to vaccines, those of you who are EU citizens might want to look at this petition (https://noprofitonpandemic.eu/) that hopes to push for a more globally equal access to vaccines. This is a complex situation and I'm still gathering information about it myself, but between companies seeking profit and countries declaring embargo on medical supplies (https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/us-embargo-raw-materials-covishield-covovax-production-covid-19-vaccine-7280711/), we are in situation where, for instance, India (which is one of the lead global producers of vaccines) exports more doses than they use for their own population (https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/health-environment/article/3129886/why-india-worlds-no-1-vaccine-maker-struggling), even amid a very aggressive second wave and internal demands for more vaccines. Or where poorer countries buy the same vaccine at a higher price than more affluent ones (https://www.politico.eu/article/astrazeneca-vaccine-cost-higher-in-poorer-countries-coronavirus/). So people are dying unnecessary deaths especially in poor countries, ironically some of the same countries that help protect the rest of the world with vaccines. It's a situation I'm uncomfortable with, and certainly one petition that largely pertains to Europe will not solve this multi-continent issue, but it can be a step in the right direction.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on May 09, 2021, 06:03:11 AM

Thank you for posting that information, Sc0ut. I can’t make links, or would have done so. It is an important issue.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on May 09, 2021, 09:57:11 AM

Congrats on being fully vaccinated, Sc0ut! I hope that immunity lasts a good while and you won't need a booster soon. So many unknowns in this pandemic.

Thanks for the links - it's a really tangly issue, and so hard to keep track of all the angles. I feel slightly guilty that I'll be getting a vaccine next week, while India is in such a state, but at the same time, I'd be mad to say no - it wouldn't help India in the least. Best to get informed and press our government to provide meaningful help to less wealthy countries - they've provided some, but it was a drop in the bucket.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on May 09, 2021, 10:43:09 AM

Quote from: Vulpes on May 09, 2021, 09:57:11 AM

Congrats on being fully vaccinated, Sc0ut! I hope that immunity lasts a good while and you won't need a booster soon. So many unknowns in this pandemic.

Thanks for the links - it's a really tangly issue, and so hard to keep track of all the angles. I feel slightly guilty that I'll be getting a vaccine next week, while India is in such a state, but at the same time, I'd be mad to say no - it wouldn't help India in the least. Best to get informed and press our government to provide meaningful help to less wealthy countries - they've provided some, but it was a drop in the bucket.

Oh for sure, nobody is arguing we should refuse the vaccine if we have access to it. Every immunised person helps those around them and by extension the world, since we're so interconnected these days. It's a matter of being aware of the global picture and of putting civic pressure where we can for things to improve.

As for the help governments (as well as corporations or other powerful entities) provide, it's sadly often a matter of giving with one hand and taking with the other. In the case of the US for instance, stopping the embargo on supplies used to make vaccines would help more, as well as be a more dignified response, than providing aid that is entirely at the discretion of the giver (and helps their image as well).

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lumilaulu on May 09, 2021, 02:30:30 PM

Quote from: Jitter on May 08, 2021, 05:58:15 PM

Finland prolonged the time gap between the shots to three months, so I will be getting my second shot about 3 weeks from now. The interesting thing is that I got the AZ first, but since it has now been banned for my age group, I’ll be getting a different one! Most likely Pfizer. I am not sure I’m happy with this, but that’s the way it’s going to be. I get fever easily so I’m expecting to get rather miserable for a while. With the AZ I only got some soreness in the arm.

Now there of course isn’t any data as to how good my immunity will be after a mixed vaccination, but I guess it’s going to be somewhat helpful. And chances are we’ll be needing further shots later anyways...

I'm glad my country has decided that young people (40 and younger) who got a first AZ shot will also get the second AZ shot, as there is no data on the effectiveness of mixing vaccines, especially considering Pfizer/BioNtech and AstraZeneca use very different methods. I believe there is also data from the UK that shows that if you didn't have side-effects after the first AZ shot, you're unlikely to get any after the second one. Two of my friends (early 20s and early 30s) got the first one just as the whole potential side-effect controversy erupted, and they will get their second one soon.

I'm kind of annoyed about all this AZ discrediting so many countries (and individual people) are doing. Any vaccine is better than no vaccine. Any side-effect you might get from a vaccine you'd have likely got far worse from the actual illness.

I would accept any of the ones approved by the EMA, but I'm not expecting my turn before late June.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Groupoid on May 19, 2021, 06:03:44 PM

Recently the swiss government* allowed the general public (no chronic illness, etc.) to get vaccinated. It felt like the complement of the day when the first case was found in Switzerland. A sign that the whole thing might end soon. I expect autumn (for Switzerland), if no vaccine-resistant mutation comes up or somesuch.

I hope you can get vaccinated if you want to and stay healthy either way.

*details are more complicated. The covid vaccinations are organized by the cantons and not by the federal government so each canton decides on its own who may get a shot. (With the "usual" vaccines it isn't like this) And what really happened was, that many cantons at the same time began vaccinating people in general (over 16y or 18y depending on canton :D)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on May 19, 2021, 06:36:12 PM

USA is now open to anybody over 12, at least in theory; and in a lot of places in practice because -- bah -- there are so many vaccine resisters that there may not be enough people willing to get vaccinated to stop this thing.

Despite which, they've announced that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks -- with, in most situations, no way to tell who's actually been vaccinated. And a lot of the vaccine-resistant are also mask-resistant. I'm afraid that what we might be doing is creating a lively reservoir of people mixing up together creating variants -- the vaccines seem to be functional against the existing variants, but who knows about what might come up next?

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on May 19, 2021, 06:59:44 PM

Quote from: thorny on May 19, 2021, 06:36:12 PM

USA is now open to anybody over 12, at least in theory; and in a lot of places in practice because -- bah -- there are so many vaccine resisters that there may not be enough people willing to get vaccinated to stop this thing.

Despite which, they've announced that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks -- with, in most situations, no way to tell who's actually been vaccinated. And a lot of the vaccine-resistant are also mask-resistant. I'm afraid that what we might be doing is creating a lively reservoir of people mixing up together creating variants -- the vaccines seem to be functional against the existing variants, but who knows about what might come up next?

I have a friend in VT who is really frustrated with this decision. VT actually has a pretty high vaccination rate, probably approaching what's necessary for herd immunity, but in other states I can totally see what you envision happening. It seems incredibly naïve to propose lifting the mask mandate for those who are fully vaccinated - surely they can't be so stunned that they don't realise what a giant loophole they've just created?

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on May 20, 2021, 10:18:09 AM

Quote from: thorny on May 19, 2021, 06:36:12 PM

USA is now open to anybody over 12, at least in theory; and in a lot of places in practice because -- bah -- there are so many vaccine resisters that there may not be enough people willing to get vaccinated to stop this thing.

Despite which, they've announced that the vaccinated don't need to wear masks -- with, in most situations, no way to tell who's actually been vaccinated. And a lot of the vaccine-resistant are also mask-resistant. I'm afraid that what we might be doing is creating a lively reservoir of people mixing up together creating variants -- the vaccines seem to be functional against the existing variants, but who knows about what might come up next?

In my country they have done away with the mask requirement for everyone, except in some places like stores (but not gyms and restaurants...). Despite the fact that there is a huge amount of population that's anti-vaccine and even covid deniers here as well, and data about the vaccination rate is not public.

For the sake of my mental health I have decided to just focus on my own behaviour and let others do as they please. I think this pandemic exposed people's selfishness, and this makes me feel pretty unsafe and quite hopeless for those even more vulnerable than me. When it comes to viruses at least there are simple measures one can take to protect themselves to some degree regardless of what other people do, but you need a functional society to solve other problems and ensure everyone has a decent life, and this pandemic made it abundantly clear that many of us don't live in functional societies.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on May 20, 2021, 08:31:26 PM

Sc0ut, that is sadly true, whether because of government apathy, denial, selfishness, living in a failed society or whatever. Australia has done fairly well so far, and I hope will continue to do so, since we seem to be able to at least suspend political differences when it saves lives. I hope we can continue so. Part of it, I think, was early and thorough lockdowns and a population and government willing to endure a bit of discomfort and inconvenience and to do things that don’t directly and personally benefit them and only them for the sake of surviving as a country and a culture. Hoping, hoping........

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: steadfastjewel on May 21, 2021, 11:45:21 AM

As of tomorrow I'll be at two shots + 2 weeks post, the US standard. Feels a bit freaky seeing my immediate environs getting back to 'normal'... in some ways normal feels like a dangerous pretense, now. Nonetheless I am very happy to be in good physical health, and I hope that those of you in other nations see more vaccines soon!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 21, 2021, 03:40:09 PM

Yeah, apparently a lot of people are getting anxious about "normal". Things like going back to the office or social gatherings seems to be completely foreign to folks now. It may take a bit to remember how to normal but it's just like riding a bike... or not. Riding a bike is easier.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: catbirds on May 22, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

It's nice that at the very least, those of you in the US have the choice to get the shot. The CDC might have made it suddenly possible to go about without wearing a mask, but at least those who want a vaccine have been able to get it (at no cost?). No substitute for just doing all the social distancing and other measures you're supposed to do, but I hope it's comforting to know you CAN get immunity if you wish. Of course, we also run into trouble getting herd immunity quickly enough, and distributing vaccines quickly enough.

I'm aware that there's a pretty small number of people who are vocally or physically violent if they see you wearing a mask. I've encountered a few, it's a very stressful experience but at least most people will put on a mask when they are asked! I work at a store, it's just a new thing that I've had to start telling people to do.

Quote from: Opaque on May 21, 2021, 03:40:09 PM

Yeah, apparently a lot of people are getting anxious about "normal". Things like going back to the office or social gatherings seems to be completely foreign to folks now. It may take a bit to remember how to normal but it's just like riding a bike... or not. Riding a bike is easier.

Hmmmm… yeah, it's definitely too soon. Highly infectious respiratory disease? Not really something that you can stop caring about quickly. In my province (Ontario), we had a brief period last summer where things were going back to "normal" because the numbers dipped below a certain amount, I can't remember, but then it got worse! At least in my city, there has been a strain on hospitals for some time. Now people walk around outside like it's any other day, which isn't a great idea!

There was also talk of how our definition of "normal" has never been "normal" for those with disabilities. It gave me a lot to think about this past year.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on May 22, 2021, 10:53:23 AM

Quote from: catbirds on May 22, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

It's nice that at the very least, those of you in the US have the choice to get the shot. The CDC might have made it suddenly possible to go about without wearing a mask, but at least those who want a vaccine have been able to get it (at no cost?).

We're a lot better off in that way than those in a lot of places in the world (and yes, the government's paying for the vaccine, the people getting it don't have to); but I gather that in some areas it's still hard to get a shot, as appointments may not be available anywhere that some people can get to without considerable difficulty. And it's not allowed for anyone under 12 yet, and 12 - 16 year olds were only approved quite recently and only for the two-shot Pfizer so few if any of them are fully vaccinated yet. So there are quite a lot of people still not vaccinated who aren't vaccine refusers.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 22, 2021, 05:51:56 PM

I agree that it's way too soon for people to start easing up the social distancing and mask wearing. My family is fully vaccinated and we're still being careful around others but there's only so much we can do when everyone else have thrown caution to the wind.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 22, 2021, 08:36:13 PM

Quote from: Opaque on May 22, 2021, 05:51:56 PM

I agree that it's way too soon for people to start easing up the social distancing and mask wearing. My family is fully vaccinated and we're still being careful around others but there's only so much we can do when everyone else have thrown caution to the wind.

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I was two weeks past my second shot as of this past Wednesday so technically I could go out without a mask now. I don't think I will. This last year has been the first year I can remember where I wasn't sick once and as an added bonus I didn't have a single creep tell me I should smile for them. I'm very seriously considering just continuing to wear a mask in public indefinitely.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on May 23, 2021, 01:29:15 AM

People who tell you to smile for them?!? How very unmannerly of them. Unless you are an actor doing a part where smiling is required, nobody is entitled to do that! I find those who do so ignorant and annoying.

If anyone does that to me when I am not feeling happy I give them a twisted teeth-revealing grin and a Look. Since I am an older woman with wrinkles and scars, that can look fairly scary. It seldom happens to me, since my natural temperament is cheerful, optimistic and stubborn. And it is also nice not to be breathing in everyone’s flu and cold.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Grade E cat on May 23, 2021, 03:48:04 AM

I've seen that thing about being asked to smile on my twitter feed, as well. Never experienced it myself, but definitely see how it could be annoying. Actually, the channel I'm using to educate myself was just recently doing a thing about how patronizing it is to tell other people how to feel (it was specifically about representation, but it can apply to plenty of other situations). I think I may continue wearing masks on colder days because my sinuses react quite badly to being taken outside when it's cold and I noticed masks can trick them into thinking it's warmer out than it actually is for ten to twenty extra minutes without also tricking them into thinking I just entered a sauna that smells suspiciously like my own neck.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on May 23, 2021, 04:19:26 AM

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 22, 2021, 08:36:13 PM

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I was two weeks past my second shot as of this past Wednesday so technically I could go out without a mask now. I don't think I will. This last year has been the first year I can remember where I wasn't sick once and as an added bonus I didn't have a single creep tell me I should smile for them. I'm very seriously considering just continuing to wear a mask in public indefinitely.

I'm also hopeful about the idea that at least occasional mask wearing in public will now be normalised in places where it wasn't before. I'm certainly keeping my mask on at the gym despite being fully vaccinated, for instance. Health aside, I also enjoy the face-censoring it brings. People often misinterpret my neutral face as showing negative emotions and I welcome the break from that. At least with a mask on they stop assuming :)

Also, as someone who never was into expressing myself through my clothes, I enjoy people's reactions to the varied masks I wear. I have one with the drawing of a lower part of the skull, and people are equally divided in thinking it's cool and creepy. I also have one that I embroidered myself with birds, and they tend to like that. I want to make more, it can be a fun and low effort way to communicate a bit about myself or even my mood on that day. Since my face is not very expressive by default (or when it does say things it doesn't say the things I want it to), it's great to suddenly have more control over this.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on May 23, 2021, 06:59:47 AM

Sounds like a good approach, Sc0ut. Several of the teenagers I know have been amusing themselves by embroidering their masks with everything from lovehearts to flowers to cartoon characters, which gives them something to do plus a bit of artistic expression and fun. One of them is working on a dragonfly mask and I look forward to the result, since she is already a good enough artist to be selling her embroidery, paintings and felt sculptures and seems to be getting even better with practice. So good to see people making things like this!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on May 23, 2021, 08:27:06 AM

Another one here happy to keep wearing a mask! I didn't get any colds all winter; that may also have to do with not being around people much in general, but that's actually all the more reason to wear a mask when I get back to face-to-face teaching and meetings.

Teaching in a mask will be strange, though. To deal with that, and to reduce traffic on campus, I'm going to do at least one remote lecture per week (out of three), and the rest more problem-solving or discussion oriented rather than lecturing. I think standing in front of the class trying to lecture through a mask for 50 minutes will be exhausting! Means I have to spend some time over the summer making short videos and organizing some readings, but it'll be worth it to reduce the time spent trying to communicate through a piece of fabric.

I got some fabric with very realistic bees on it to make masks - I do bee research. Masks are such a great opportunity for some self-expression. A colleague who works on fish has some nice fish-themed masks, which partly inspired me to go looking for insect-themed fabric.

I've never had a stranger tell me to smile, that I remember. What a strange thing to tell someone! My older sister once commanded me to laugh during a movie, but... well, older sister. Enough said. :))

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: thorny on May 23, 2021, 09:47:57 AM

Quote from: Vulpes on May 23, 2021, 08:27:06 AM

I've never had a stranger tell me to smile, that I remember. What a strange thing to tell someone!

Vulpes, do you appear male? It's a thing mostly done to women. Men are generally allowed to look serious without anybody commenting on it.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: catbirds on May 23, 2021, 09:49:32 AM

:) I was also very happy to wear a mask all winter because it helps keep your face a bit warmer than it would be otherwise! It's kind of like wearing a scarf covering your face, but less uncomfortable. It was also good for preventing disease of course, especially if you live and work in a crowded place like me. I actually decided to wear two! One fabric and one of the blue masks, they fit very snugly over my face.

I hope that I can find some neat patterns to make a thinner mask with! I don't really have any at the moment, but I guess now that I'm on vacation it shouldn't be too hard to do some very simple embroidery myself.

Quote from: Vulpes on May 23, 2021, 08:27:06 AM

Teaching in a mask will be strange, though. To deal with that, and to reduce traffic on campus, I'm going to do at least one remote lecture per week (out of three), and the rest more problem-solving or discussion oriented rather than lecturing. I think standing in front of the class trying to lecture through a mask for 50 minutes will be exhausting! Means I have to spend some time over the summer making short videos and organizing some readings, but it'll be worth it to reduce the time spent trying to communicate through a piece of fabric.
[...]
I've never had a stranger tell me to smile, that I remember. What a strange thing to tell someone! My older sister once commanded me to laugh during a movie, but... well, older sister. Enough said. :))

Yeah, one of the troubles with wearing a mask is that it's hard to tell when people are talking, and to whom. I hope you're ready to speak rather loudly! Your voice does get somewhat muffled if you wear too thick a mask. But aside from that, the usual cues for someone talking to you (lips moving, sound, eye contact) are now much harder to detect.

I'm excited to go back to in-school learning at least once a week or so. It feels like I'm finally becoming a real university student? But here's a cursed thought, I actually liked online learning better because I didn't have to figure out how to act, how to sit, how to talk, etc etc in a "professional" setting. If I wear a cute mask next year, at least then I can keep the awkward business smiles out of the way. Most of my friends are absolutely done with online learning, though! They want no more of it.

As for being told to smile, I have heard that people who look like girls/more feminine are often told to do that, though I never tried to look presentable so I guess I managed to avoid that. Social expectations or whatever :( Tarnagh, I'm not sure what you present as IRL so sorry if I'm assuming too much. (Edit: also as thorny said)

(I also have an older sister, I kind of miss the intense bitterness and hatred we held for each other in our childhood :P)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Songbird on May 23, 2021, 10:31:28 AM

I'm one of the unlucky ones stuck in a place with slow going vaccination. Might only be able to get my first shot in August if I recall it correctly.

Quote from: catbirds on May 23, 2021, 09:49:32 AM

As for being told to smile, I have heard that people who look like girls/more feminine are often told to do that, though I never tried to look presentable so I guess I managed to avoid that. Social expectations or whatever :( Tarnagh, I'm not sure what you present as IRL so sorry if I'm assuming too much. (Edit: also as thorny said)

When you look like the archetype of young female fragility then acquaintances and strangers alike might not hesitate to state what you're supposed to be doing a given moment, smiling included. It's prevalent, grating and exhausting. It's like they see "harmless looking" and think "easy to push around".

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 23, 2021, 04:10:37 PM

Quote from: catbirds on May 23, 2021, 09:49:32 AM

As for being told to smile, I have heard that people who look like girls/more feminine are often told to do that, though I never tried to look presentable so I guess I managed to avoid that. Social expectations or whatever :( Tarnagh, I'm not sure what you present as IRL so sorry if I'm assuming too much. (Edit: also as thorny said)

I have what the internet calls "Resting b**** Face," and during the before-times I was constantly having men tell me I'd be prettier if I smiled, or asking me to smile for them, or several variations on the theme of adjusting my appearance to please them.

I would be best described as "fat, middle-aged housewife." I'm definitely not what anyone might consider dainty, cute, or helpless. Just female. :-\

Male cashiers would tell me to smile for them rather often and it's ... grating. And creepy.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on May 23, 2021, 05:49:17 PM

How dare this female exist without doing her utmost to decorate the environment for ME!

Many of them even view it as if it’s a positive thing to say. Either because hey compliment, I would like your appearance if you put in more effort, and obviously your life would be more fulfilling if I did. Or hey, I offered you some friendly advice, and obviously it’s important too as it comes from ME. You female person (or almost person) should certainly be grateful for someone of my standing deigning to advise you!

I wish I was exaggerating but no. It hasn’t been very common on me either, but I think that’s just good luck. I have been gifted with my share of gropes and suggestions, although blessedly rarely these days, in my present form of a fat middle-aged professional mother of two. (And! This isn’t even my final form!)

Sorry for having taken the discussion out to such a distance that the actual topic hardly be seen on the horizon. But I think it’s always an important moment, when a male-presenting person suddenly understands some of what it’s too often like for the rest of us.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 23, 2021, 08:33:09 PM

That's so gross. I definitely would get annoyed if someone were to ask me smile more. Being bad with facial expressions I would say my face is neutral and I could see myself using that to my advantage.
I am considered very pretty and have an hourglass figure but as a natural recluse I don't interact with people a lot so I never have had someone talk to me like that. I would like to think I'd say something sassy or funny but realistically it'll probably be more like " No, that's ok. I don't need to." Or "Okay" then just not do anything.
I really feel bad for y'all who have to deal with that garbage. It's surprisingly easy to compliment people without saying things like "you'd look better if"...

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 23, 2021, 09:18:52 PM

Sorry for the derailment, I feel like that was my fault. Um. Oops!

Back to the topic more or less at hand, regarding continuing to wear a mask: I've found another excellent reason to continue to do so. The 2020 - 2021 flu season statistics as compared to the 2019 - 2020 flu season statistics for the United States. I don't know about other countries, but I'm willing to bet they're similar based on percentage of population.

2019 - 2020: All symptomatic cases: more than 38 MILLION; pediatric deaths (ages 0 - 17): 434.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2019-2020.html#:~:text=CDC%20estimates%20that%20the%20burden,flu%20deaths%20(Table%201) (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2019-2020.html#:~:text=CDC%20estimates%20that%20the%20burden,flu%20deaths%20(Table%201))

2020 - 2021: All symptomatic cases: Less than two thousand! Pediatric deaths: one.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on May 23, 2021, 11:46:12 PM

A little derailment isn't so bad.
Oh, wow interesting! Maybe we all should be wearing masks during flu season. I honestly wouldn't be too bothered by it although I'm sure so many anti maskers would throw a fit.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 12:42:21 AM

Quote from: Opaque on May 23, 2021, 11:46:12 PM

I'm sure so many anti maskers would throw a fit.

And just like that, I found another reason to continue wearing them. >:D

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on May 24, 2021, 01:32:38 AM

Tarnagh, you were completely on topic! And I also think it’s not bad that the discussions are organic and go where people want to take them. If a branch becomes overly prominent, it can be cut into a discussion of its own, but a little sidestepping is good!

Also I think we can expect to have some citizenship cake soon in the promotion celebrations thread :)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 01:46:02 AM

Quote from: Jitter on May 24, 2021, 01:32:38 AM

Also I think we can expect to have some citizenship cake soon in the promotion celebrations thread :)

Yay, cake! :)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on May 24, 2021, 06:55:49 AM

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 23, 2021, 09:18:52 PM

Back to the topic more or less at hand, regarding continuing to wear a mask: I've found another excellent reason to continue to do so. The 2020 - 2021 flu season statistics as compared to the 2019 - 2020 flu season statistics for the United States. I don't know about other countries, but I'm willing to bet they're similar based on percentage of population.

Don't have all the exact numbers at hand, but yes, the verdict (http://) is that the last flu season pretty much was a no-show in Germany, too.
(https://www.aerztezeitung.de/Bilder/Influenza-der-letzten-beiden-Grippewinter-im-Vergleich-Zu-195089h.jpg)

Of course, that's not just the masks causing that effect, nor the entire bunch of "everyday measures" against COVID-19 (called "gestes barrières" in France, "AHA+L" in Germany¹, etc. ad nauseam), or even travel restrictions or curfews. The range of causes goes all the way to people mysteriously (heh) getting more interested in obtaining flu shots than before. (My GP asked me whether I would want one during a routine appointment, she'd never asked before.)

Which brings me back to something I mentioned elsewhere before, the possibility that there'll be a combined flu+COVID vaccine in the future, the probable near-necessity of getting the latter furthering the coverage of the former ...

¹ ETA: That's what, the third acronym they had to come up with as the list of things to do changed? They narrowly avoided having to replace the A for "Alltagsmaske" - i.e., non-rated mask; we're up to medical or FFP2, in some cases only the latter, by now - by creative backronyming.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Vulpes on May 24, 2021, 09:33:56 AM

Quote from: thorny on May 23, 2021, 09:47:57 AM

Vulpes, do you appear male? It's a thing mostly done to women. Men are generally allowed to look serious without anybody commenting on it.

Apparently I'm ambiguous. I've been addressed at various times as anything from "sir" to "little girl"... the latter being particularly offensive, because (a) I was in my late 20s, clearly not "little" anything, and (b) the person saying was an older male who was being incredibly condescending, assuming that anyone looking at stereo equipment who appeared female couldn't possibly know what they're looking for. But he didn't ask me to smile, and I certainly wasn't smiling when I gave him a pretty techincal answer to his "How can I help you, little girl?" (In retrospect, my answer should have suggested an anatomical impossibility involving him and the stereo equipment, but I was raised to be polite and ignore it when people are arseholes.)

Quote from: catbirds on May 23, 2021, 09:49:32 AM

:) I was also very happy to wear a mask all winter because it helps keep your face a bit warmer than it would be otherwise! It's kind of like wearing a scarf covering your face, but less uncomfortable. <snip>

I hope you're ready to speak rather loudly! Your voice does get somewhat muffled if you wear too thick a mask. <snip>

(I also have an older sister, I kind of miss the intense bitterness and hatred we held for each other in our childhood :P)

Yes to mask as scarf substitute! It can be really windy here, especially in parking lots, so it was nice to pop the mask on in the car and not have to deal with icy wind and blowing snow getting into the store.

I absolutely expect to wear out my voice trying to lecture through the mask. Another reason to do some classes remotely - reduce the strain on my vocal cords, because I'm pretty sure I don't project properly. I had a little vocal training, but it's really only enough to know that I'm projecting ineffectively, not enough to fix it.

I don't miss the fighting with my sister! She's six years my senior, so when we were little, she could beat me up, and did - although now, whenever I mention some dreadful thing she did to me, she says, "I would never have done that!" Yeah, I don't think I'm misremembering the time you nearly dislocated my shoulder, that kind of thing sticks in the memory, you know? She moved out when there was still a considerable size difference between us. She was home visiting a few years later, and started in with her usual poking and pestering. I asked her to stop. She didn't. I had Had Enough, and swung around and punched her in the gut. Just then our mum walked in the room. My sister howled that I'd punched her... and Mum said, "About time," and turned around and left us to sort it out between us. We've gotten along much better since then!

Quote from: Jitter on May 23, 2021, 05:49:17 PM

Many of them even view it as if it’s a positive thing to say. <snip>

This is what makes it so hard to correct that type of behaviour. Why are you annoyed? I just gave you a compliment! It was sincere! You have no business being offended!

My mother used to get enraged when people (often other women) would say, "You look so nice with makeup," on the odd occasion when she wore any. She would grit her teeth and say thanks, but would fume later, "So, do I look terrible the rest of the time?" I am really careful about complimenting people's appearance - male or female - because of this implied judgement of their appearance the rest of the time. I feel pretty safe with a haircut - after all, they presumably got it cut because they thought it was getting messy - but I think twice for other things!

Tarnagh, those are incredible stats! Thanks for the links, I'll definitely be digging a little deeper. It's obviously about more than just masks, but does vividly demonstrate how bad the pandemic would have been without the various measures taken.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 01:54:20 PM

Quote from: Vulpes on May 24, 2021, 09:33:56 AM

Tarnagh, those are incredible stats! Thanks for the links, I'll definitely be digging a little deeper. It's obviously about more than just masks, but does vividly demonstrate how bad the pandemic would have been without the various measures taken.

Very welcome! :)

It may have rather a lot to do with masks - although social distancing and people being more conscious of washing their nasty hands certainly helped - because of the size of the virus cells. Influenza virus is larger than Coronavirus, so the masks did a better job preventing the transmission of flu viruses in a pretty significant way.

ETA: I'm dumb. I just realized the graphic I provided was indicative of the death toll from each disease, not the size of the virus cells. I know I've seen something that did a size comparison on different diseases like that and my mission for the day is to find it again. :)

ETA2: Maybe I imagined the particle size thing because I'm not finding anything on it now. :/ Consensus seems to be that the flu didn't have a chance to get off the ground due to the isolation measures this past year - working from home, school from home, less gathering in large groups, along with the flu having a much shorter incubation time than Covid.

Regardless, the good news is that the measures that worked for Covid also work really well for the flu.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Groupoid on May 24, 2021, 03:35:01 PM

Quote from: catbirds on May 22, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

There was also talk of how our definition of "normal" has never been "normal" for those with disabilities. It gave me a lot to think about this past year.

Hear hear. I think using "normal" says more about expectations and previous experience, than about any mean or average. Not just in the context of disabilities.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 03:53:29 PM

Quote from: catbirds on May 22, 2021, 10:33:45 AM

There was also talk of how our definition of "normal" has never been "normal" for those with disabilities. It gave me a lot to think about this past year.

Quote from: Groupoid on May 24, 2021, 03:35:01 PM

Hear hear. I think using "normal" says more about expectations and previous experience, than about any mean or average. Not just in the context of disabilities.

I'll second this. "Normal" to me means "returning to the status quo" and over the last year we've been shown how badly that was working for nearly everyone, but absolutely a greater impact on people with disabilities.

I don't want to go back to that. I really don't think we should.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on May 25, 2021, 03:04:17 AM

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 01:54:20 PM

because of the size of the virus cells. Influenza virus is larger than Coronavirus, so the masks did a better job preventing the transmission of flu viruses in a pretty significant way.
[...]
ETA2: Maybe I imagined the particle size thing because I'm not finding anything on it now. :/

"The" size of viruses is not a nailed-down number. In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the uncertainty is still higher, so numbers range both lower and higher; for example, I see a statement of "between 20 and 500 nm" right now. On the other hand, "between 80 and 120 nm" is an estimate that you can find for both.

As far as masks are concerned, it doesn't matter, though; they're barriers for droplets that can carry viruses, a "naked" virus will slip through unhindered (but has serious trouble getting to someone else's mask in the first place).

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 24, 2021, 03:53:29 PM

"Normal" to me means "returning to the status quo"

(I think you mean the status quo ante.)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 25, 2021, 01:32:08 PM

Quote from: JoB on May 25, 2021, 03:04:17 AM

"The" size of viruses is not a nailed-down number. In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the uncertainty is still higher, so numbers range both lower and higher; for example, I see a statement of "between 20 and 500 nm" right now. On the other hand, "between 80 and 120 nm" is an estimate that you can find for both.

As far as masks are concerned, it doesn't matter, though; they're barriers for droplets that can carry viruses, a "naked" virus will slip through unhindered (but has serious trouble getting to someone else's mask in the first place).
(I think you mean the status quo ante.)

Thank you for that. :)

Whatever I think I mean, I don't want to go back to it. Too many people suffer under that system. We need to do better and the last year has proven that we *can* do better. Corporations just hate anything that "hurts" their bottom line. (For a certain value of "hurt." They hate losing a couple million off their billions, y'know.)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: catbirds on May 26, 2021, 12:06:00 AM

Quote from: Tarnagh on May 25, 2021, 01:32:08 PM

Whatever I think I mean, I don't want to go back to it. Too many people suffer under that system. We need to do better and the last year has proven that we *can* do better. Corporations just hate anything that "hurts" their bottom line. (For a certain value of "hurt." They hate losing a couple million off their billions, y'know.)

Yeah, I think what people meant by "normal" or "status quo ante" or however else you say it is things that they took for granted in everyday life. Y'know, things that you just do for fun and don't really think about or miss until it's gone. But the things people took for granted were already difficult or never possible to begin with for people with certain disabilities. Corporations obviously want it restored to the "status quo ante" because that was what got them money, but compassion for those who won't get to enjoy any of what we'll get back should take priority.

Hrrrrrrm... I volunteered with a program that helped isolated seniors during the pandemic. I still do because, y'know, it's not over yet. I don't think I can just go back to what society used to be like, with what I learned from that experience.

Quote from: Vulpes on May 24, 2021, 09:33:56 AM

I don't miss the fighting with my sister! She's six years my senior, so when we were little, she could beat me up, and did - although now, whenever I mention some dreadful thing she did to me, she says, "I would never have done that!" Yeah, I don't think I'm misremembering the time you nearly dislocated my shoulder, that kind of thing sticks in the memory, you know? She moved out when there was still a considerable size difference between us. She was home visiting a few years later, and started in with her usual poking and pestering. I asked her to stop. She didn't. I had Had Enough, and swung around and punched her in the gut. Just then our mum walked in the room. My sister howled that I'd punched her... and Mum said, "About time," and turned around and left us to sort it out between us. We've gotten along much better since then!

Oh dear... I'm kidding, or maybe reflecting bitterly upon my sister's relationship with me. I do remember my sister and I also fought physically as children, but there was absolutely no bullying allowed in this household! There'd be dire consequences if it genuinely included ill intent. I'm glad you managed to work it out with your sister, though! She sounds like she was way too mean in your youth :( I agree with your mother, it definitely was about time.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Tarnagh on May 26, 2021, 12:51:19 AM

Quote from: catbirds on May 26, 2021, 12:06:00 AM

Yeah, I think what people meant by "normal" or "status quo ante" or however else you say it is things that they took for granted in everyday life. Y'know, things that you just do for fun and don't really think about or miss until it's gone. But the things people took for granted were already difficult or never possible to begin with for people with certain disabilities. Corporations obviously want it restored to the "status quo ante" because that was what got them money, but compassion for those who won't get to enjoy any of what we'll get back should take priority.

Hrrrrrrm... I volunteered with a program that helped isolated seniors during the pandemic. I still do because, y'know, it's not over yet. I don't think I can just go back to what society used to be like, with what I learned from that experience.

Compassion. Exactly this. The old "normal" or "status quo ante" lacks that. The disregard for huge chunks of the population is appalling. Good on you for helping with isolated seniors! I'm sure they appreciate it.

A friend of mine once said to me, "A library burns down every time an old person dies." I've never forgotten that because it's just so ... profound. There's a lot we could learn from our elders if we only took the time to listen.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Windfighter on May 26, 2021, 11:00:08 AM

Over here I think a lot of people are still convinced that wearing a mask will kill you due to the fact that that's what our health department told us when the whole thing started, and then kept saying for like 9 months until they finally admitted that it will only kill you if you don't use it correctly (it took another couple of months before they started telling us how to use them but the recommendations are still pretty much just wash your hands and keep at arm's lenght from people (masks are recommended on the train during rush-hour tho which progress???))
I've started seeing a few masks in the stores tho!

But! Vaccinations are rolling around! I think we may have started vaccinated regular people as well now??? I count as in the risk-group because I'm in LSS (it's some governmental thing for people with certain diagnoses but I don't know exactly what it is) due to my asperger-diagnosis so I got my first shot last month and the second one today! I have pretty supergood immunesystem already so I was a little sad that I got the vaccine before people who have health issues that would not have fared well with covid, but still happy that I got it. I think the latest projections was that everyone that wants to get the vaccine should be done at the end of next month or at least close to that. Lots of people who don't want it tho because it's new and we don't know the sideeffects (understandable) and because "covid is just like a cold so how bad can it be?" (eyeroll)

Not much changed for me due to covid. We weren't allowed at our usual workplaces at work (we have people who live in special needs-housing and therefore we had a lot of restrictions on workplaces) so we had to invent some new things for us to do. The only thing that really changed was I started to wear a mask in stores and on the train (and a breakup with my family but I think that had less to do with covid and more to do with me deciding I was done with the emotional abuse :P). I'll... probably keep doing that? It depends on a lot of things, but for now I think I'll keep it up.
I've never really had the problem of people asking me to smile when I'm out, they mostly stare at me and wish I'd smile a bit less :P You're supposed to be in a sour mood when waiting for the train after all! (somehow I've internalized that I always need to smile anyway tho so y'know *shrugs*)

anyway I'm vaccinated woo! >w< apparently I'm supposed to celebrate this so I guess this counts as the celebration :hat:

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on May 26, 2021, 06:43:06 PM

Quote from: Windfighter on May 26, 2021, 11:00:08 AM

Over here I think a lot of people are still convinced that wearing a mask will kill you due to the fact that that's what our health department told us when the whole thing started

Well, sure, that's what masks designed to be worn for an entire shift of physical work in actually particle-saturated environments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFP_standards) do all the time. Obviously. [desperately rifles through drawers for a "straight face" mask]

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Sc0ut on May 27, 2021, 03:01:17 AM

Quote from: Windfighter on May 26, 2021, 11:00:08 AM

Over here I think a lot of people are still convinced that wearing a mask will kill you due to the fact that that's what our health department told us when the whole thing started, and then kept saying for like 9 months until they finally admitted that it will only kill you if you don't use it correctly (it took another couple of months before they started telling us how to use them but the recommendations are still pretty much just wash your hands and keep at arm's lenght from people (masks are recommended on the train during rush-hour tho which progress???))

They said what??? O_O O_O O_O

But, congratulations on the vaccine and on putting a stop to your family's abusive behaviour, that's really great to hear <3

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Windfighter on May 27, 2021, 07:33:57 AM

well, the more exact quotes were "If you wear a mask you're going to catch covid" and "if you wear a mask your immune system will stop working completely" which in the long run means even a regular cold would most likely kill you ::)

apparently they said that so people wouldn't go out and use masks the wrong way but you know.... they could have said how to use them instead?

What's done is done and I hope they don't pull that same stunt if this ever happens again but at least sweden is pretty quick with the vaccinations (which obviously is easier for us than a lot of other countries because 1) we have a comparatively small number of inhabitants and b) we're a kinda rich country)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on May 27, 2021, 03:06:47 PM

Quote from: Windfighter on May 27, 2021, 07:33:57 AM

apparently they said that so people wouldn't go out and use masks the wrong way but you know.... they could have said how to use them instead?

And even if there's a part of the populace that they cannot bring up to speed, that's still not a problem unless they a) use up resources (masks) that would be of more use elsewhere and/or b) feel encouraged by wearing a mask (but non-effectively) to get sloppy with other precautionary measures.

Other nations countered a) by allowing the general populace to wear non-certified masks that, if necessary, people could DIY, and upped the requirements only after the production volumes of certified masks had been upped to cover the combined demand.

(Not sure that there's an ultimate solution to b) so far, though, but given that you want people to mostly wear masks from some point on, there might not be a better response than "try training them harder".)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: chucao on June 14, 2021, 03:37:06 PM

I'm tired of this situation, it really sucks. Since the pandemic started, all the issues my homeland was having before increased: economical, social, political, educarional, cultural and environmental.

Slowly, I'm losing hope on a bright future. Though I'm trying to stay positive on these hard times, because I'm aware that one day everything is going to be alright. We just need to wait for it 😔

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Jitter on November 23, 2021, 05:38:03 PM

I’m just, you know

(https://40.media.tumblr.com/2368ea5f37a1e62845a3c21f0adf222f/tumblr_nlsuwekyxJ1r91v3ho1_540.png)

(https://41.media.tumblr.com/70fc690d50a783d081035d33193a3645/tumblr_nt983v9if81tqph6wo1_540.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/gCLwTxH.jpg?1)

Sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on November 25, 2021, 01:55:37 AM

Sympathy, Jitter! Covid-wise things here are not as bad as they might be, probably because folk here have been fairly stringent about masks, handwashing and social distancing, and all the worst outbreaks have been from either interstate truck drivers, stupid tourists or from infections spread from badly managed ‘hotel quarantine’. But the level of existential angst from people being confined to home is still pretty high. People want to get out and see family and friends, especially as we approach the summer holiday season, and don’t have enough experience with patience, waiting, or coping with less than ideal situations. Still, we go on.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: wavewright62 on December 13, 2021, 01:45:58 AM

We're about a week in to a new system, with vaccine passes required to enable access to hospitality inside their premises. My vaccine pass is not printed out - a screenshot from the pdf is my new phone background.
Many workplaces now require all their employees to be double-jabbed, including mine, and most of the construction sites we service. One of our number (40 total) has given notice, as he didn't like how he felt after the first jab & refuses to take the 2nd. The dude is a first responder in his rural volunteer search & rescue team, and can't do that either.
I shrug, the mentality escapes me.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Opaque on January 03, 2022, 12:37:34 AM

Honestly, I've been getting angrier about the unvaccinated people who are unnecessarily taking up room in the hospitals. Or maybe that's just me grieving. My uncle was injured a few months ago and every hospital in the area was over capacity so he couldn't get a room. He did manage to see a doctor but there was not much he could do until he could get surgery which wasn't going to happen right away with how full the hospital was. A few days later he had his surgery but it turns out that there was too much damage. Then another few days later he passed away.
Maybe I'm just looking for people to blame for this. Maybe he would have died anyway even if he got surgery right away. I don't know. I just feel bad about this whole thing...

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on January 03, 2022, 01:46:57 AM

Quite understandable, Opaque. Several people I know have caught covid while at a hospital for other reasons, which is just awful. And given that my husband has chronic health problems and sometimes has to spend days or weeks in hospital, I can’t help but worry. Here at present all but the worst cases of covid are being asked to isolate at home, because the system is overwhelmed, and testing for travellers and for all except the most obvious symptomatic cases is being scrapped. Helps to keep the case numbers artificially low and business going, at least until too many people start to die. And of course our conservative government has refused to distribute free RATS tests because they don’t want to interfere with commercial sales of the test kits. The hell with public health, mustn’t put the big-donor pharmaceutical industry offside. Our PM has actually said in public that he hasn’t approved distribution of the easy to use at home test kits because “people shouldn’t get used to being given free stuff”. I can see why he is so commonly nicknamed ‘Scummo’.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Grade E cat on January 03, 2022, 03:19:58 AM

In France, they stopped making tests free for the non-vaccinated at some point because a negative test was technically enough to go into places and people who didn't want to get vaccinated (alongside people who wanted to and simply didn't manage to do so in time) would instead get tested on a regular basis. People did point out that it risked making the numbers artificially, low, however.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: catbirds on January 04, 2022, 01:58:34 AM

Quote from: Grade E cat on January 03, 2022, 03:19:58 AM

In France, they stopped making tests free for the non-vaccinated at some point because a negative test was technically enough to go into places and people who didn't want to get vaccinated (alongside people who wanted to and simply didn't manage to do so in time) would instead get tested on a regular basis. People did point out that it risked making the numbers artificially, low, however.

By the first sentence, I'm assuming this means it can be done for a fee? That would also mean it's only possible for people with enough disposable income :(

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Grade E cat on January 04, 2022, 03:17:37 AM

It's another problem with doing this that has been pointed out, indeed.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on January 05, 2022, 03:40:38 AM

Quote from: Róisín on January 03, 2022, 01:46:57 AM

And of course our conservative government has refused to distribute free RATS tests because they don’t want to interfere with commercial sales of the test kits. The hell with public health, mustn’t put the big-donor pharmaceutical industry offside. Our PM has actually said in public that he hasn’t approved distribution of the easy to use at home test kits because “people shouldn’t get used to being given free stuff”. I can see why he is so commonly nicknamed ‘Scummo’.

A friend is in self-isolation and can't get a test kit, so I offered to find a pack and drop it off to him. Unfortunately my pharmacy has run out of them; I'll check other pharmacies but I'm less than sanguine about finding any test kits. And to make things worse, as Róisín and Star let me know just today, profiteers are blatantly cashing in.

Quote

Businesses mark up rapid antigen tests for profit on Uber Eats as demand soars
Desperate consumers searching for rapid antigen tests can order their kits alongside a burger as restaurants and convenience stores list the in-demand tests for exorbitant prices on delivery platforms.
Businesses in some states have listed RATs for as much as $65 on Uber Eats — in stark contrast to Tasmania, where the state government is providing free testing for those that require them under its rules.
South Australian roadside restaurant The Big Grill Bolivar is known for selling burgers and chips 24/7, but the food stop recently added RATs to its menu. The venue is among the businesses that have capitalised on the high demand for the DIY tests as Omicron cases surge across the country.
Management shared a statement on social media on Tuesday addressing “confusion” surrounding their justification for the prices of the tests. “These are priced in accordance to the current market prices,” it said. “We sell a two pack of rapid antigen tests for $40 in store and we sell a two pack of rapid antigen tests for $50 through our delivery partners, the price increase is due to their exorbitant fees.”
However, this did little to ease frustrations online, with some social media users claiming some businesses are “extorting people in a pandemic”.
Convenience store Crystal Mart Waterloo was on Tuesday selling a two-pack of RATs for $60 on the delivery platform.
Ultra Convenience in Edgeworth was also selling a two-pack on Uber Eats for $42.95, while Ready To Go Convenience in Hurlstone Park was selling two RATs for $65.
Australia’s consumer watchdog on Tuesday warned it would name and shame suppliers following reports of price gouging RATs. “We are seeking information from suppliers about their costs and the current pricing of rapid antigen tests,” ACCC Chair Rod Sims said. “We are also contacting major retailers and pharmacies seeking similar information and reminding them that they need to be able to substantiate any claims they make to consumers about the reason for higher prices. We won’t be shy to name and shame suppliers and retailers we consider to be doing the wrong thing.”
It comes as Prime Minister Scott Morrison told Sunrise on Monday rapid tests would not be rolled out for free to the public, despite COVID-19 case numbers and hospitalisations spiking. “We’re now in a stage of the pandemic where you can’t just go around making everything free. When someone tells you they want to make something free, someone’s always going to pay for it, and it’s going to be you.”[/size]

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/businesses-mark-up-rapid-antigen-tests-for-profit-on-uber-eats-as-demand-soars--c-5182768 (https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/businesses-mark-up-rapid-antigen-tests-for-profit-on-uber-eats-as-demand-soars--c-5182768)

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Yastreb on March 04, 2022, 06:41:19 AM

Yesterday, the global death toll passed six million.

In Australia, more than 100 have died in the past two days, and that hasn't been reported.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Kevin_Redcrow on April 02, 2022, 08:31:38 PM

By my reckoning, the U.S. will reach one million deaths in the next 11 days.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 03, 2022, 05:12:34 AM

I think people are no longer paying attention to deaths so much, it is just becoming status quo. Meanwhile the rest of the medical system is becoming even more neglected, with more deaths while patients are being ramped in ambulances.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: RanVor on April 11, 2022, 01:57:25 AM

There's only so much distress something can cause you before you become numb to it. It's a defense mechanism.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lwise on April 11, 2022, 10:06:00 AM

When I was a child -- maybe eight or nine -- I read a book called "The Plague and the Fire" about the Black Death in London in 1665 and the Great Fire the next year. One story that made a huge impression on me was about families being locked in their homes if someone was found to be infected. Locked in with dead or dying family members, with no food or water, people got desperate. They'd try to sneak out, or bribe the guard if they could, or, if they couldn't come up with a bribe, they'd try to kill the guard. The book had a reproduction of a woodcut showing the prisoners dropping a noose on the guard and strangling him so they could escape.

I hadn't thought of that in many years, but it came back to me when I was reading about the people locked in their homes in Shanghai because of Covid. The Chinese government doesn't have the infrastructure to feed twenty-five million prisoners; no one does. And I wonder how long it will be before the desperate and starving prisoners start trying to kill the guards.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 12, 2022, 06:04:04 AM

A milder version was starting to happen during Melbourne’s early lockdown. One of the inner suburbs has several huge tower blocks which are their version of community housing. Mostly the elderly poor, the disabled, unemployed families with young children, migrant families and the displaced young waiting for an individual rental they can afford. Thousands of people. These blocks were suddenly locked down, giving the people who lived there no chance to stock up on baby food, medicine, basic provisions or stuff their kids needed. In some of the taller blocks the lifts were turned off.
Fortunately outside sympathisers were able to make enough fuss that the government started making food, access to medical care and medicine a bit more accessible. But it was pretty clear that if nobody had made a fuss the poor might just have been left locked in for the duration.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lwise on April 12, 2022, 08:43:28 AM

"The Plague and the Fire" is available on Kindle, so I'm rereading it. I came across something funny:

"[T]he Bills of Mortality had already recorded three cases of death by 'Pestilence', one of them in the out-parish of St Giles-in-the-Fields during December. This caused little concern, for London was rarely entirely free from plague, and an occasional case among the thousand of deaths from other diseases set out in the Bills could pass almost unnoticed. It was no more remarkable than a case of diphtheria would be today."

Wait, what? I've never even heard of a case of diphtheria. So I checked Wikipedia (reliable for something like this) and learned:

"In the United States, 57 cases were reported between 1980 and 2004."

So, just over two cases per year in the entire country, and that's just cases, not deaths. A case of diphtheria would definitely be remarkable!

"The Plague and the Fire" was first published in 1962, so diphtheria was common then, but disappeared within the next eighteen years. Modern medicine is quite amazing.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: Róisín on April 12, 2022, 09:43:29 AM

I’m old enough and have lived in odd places enough to have seen diphtheria epidemics, one in Tasmania. Terrifying disease.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on April 12, 2022, 12:23:33 PM

Quote from: lwise on April 12, 2022, 08:43:28 AM

So, just over two cases per year in the entire country, and that's just cases, not deaths. A case of diphtheria would definitely be remarkable!
"The Plague and the Fire" was first published in 1962, so diphtheria was common then, but disappeared within the next eighteen years. Modern medicine is quite amazing.

Quote from: Róisín on April 12, 2022, 09:43:29 AM

I’m old enough and have lived in odd places enough to have seen diphtheria epidemics

It's still very much present, the fall of the Soviet Union caused the vaccination rate to drop far enough (70-some percent) for a bout of 48k cases in 1994. In Germany, cases (27 in 2018) are subject to compulsory registration.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lwise on April 12, 2022, 12:45:57 PM

Quote from: JoB on April 12, 2022, 12:23:33 PM

It's still very much present, the fall of the Soviet Union caused the vaccination rate to drop far enough (70-some percent) for a bout of 48k cases in 1994. In Germany, cases (27 in 2018) are subject to compulsory registration.

True, but even so, 27 cases in all of Germany isn't so common as to be unremarkable.

I went back and checked on rates of bubonic plague in America (it's in the populations of ground-dwelling mammals). Quoth the CDC: "In recent decades, an average of seven human plague cases have been reported each year". So in America today, a case of diphtheria would be *more* remarkable than a case of plague!

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on April 12, 2022, 01:24:10 PM

Quote from: lwise on April 12, 2022, 12:45:57 PM

True, but even so, 27 cases in all of Germany isn't so common as to be unremarkable.

Sure. The places where it really still is a rather common sight are in Asia and Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria#Epidemiology) - where the vaccination rates can't be held as high as necessary to prevent regional epidemics.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: lwise on April 12, 2022, 02:01:23 PM

Quote from: JoB on April 12, 2022, 01:24:10 PM

Sure. The places where it really still is a rather common sight are in Asia and Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria#Epidemiology) - where the vaccination rates can't be held as high as necessary to prevent regional epidemics.

Right and of course it will come back here if vaccination rates fall too low.

I was only commenting on the difference in experience with disease between the author and a modern reader. Another example is with Dickens' "Bleak House". One of the characters, Esther, gets sick, has a fever, and when she wakes up, finds herself alone in the house. She looks around and finds no mirrors. That was obviously sufficient for Dickens' audience to understand what had happened; my first reaction was, "she's a vampire?" I did work out that she must have had something like smallpox, but it was not my first thought because smallpox is just not part of my experience.

Adding: vampires aren't part of my experience either, but I've read about them a lot more than I've read about smallpox.

Title: Re: Covid 19 - Thoughts and feelings
Post by: JoB on April 12, 2022, 06:34:11 PM

Quote from: lwise on April 12, 2022, 02:01:23 PM

I did work out that she must have had something like smallpox, but it was not my first thought because smallpox is just not part of my experience.
Adding: vampires aren't part of my experience either, but I've read about them a lot more than I've read about smallpox.

Well, to be fair, Dickens et.al. had no reason to think that their readers would ever not have good knowledge of smallpox; that's the disease that Jenner - no, not this Jenner (https://www.docrat.com.au/about/the-creator) - started the whole "vaccination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine)" (literally: cow-ification) business with.
(https://media01.stockfood.com/largepreviews/MzU5NDM1Mzkw/11594690-Smallpox-vaccination-satirical-artwork.jpg)

The Stand Still, Stay Silent Fan-Forum

General => General Discussion Board => Topic started by: Gwenno on March 28, 2020, 07:05:55 PM