Post by: lwise on May 09, 2022, 04:06:08 PM
But consider: Trond recruited Sigrun and Mikkel, Taru recruited Lalli and Tuuri, and the Västerströms just recruited Emil. So should Trond and Taru get 2/5ths each while the Västerströms get 1/5?
Post by: Jitter on May 09, 2022, 04:19:58 PM
I have just read the first Y90 page and the comments, and people are wonderfully excited. I would have loved to see more of the everyday life in Y90+, but these glimpses are great too! And Minna is promising a proper map of Reykjavik “when we come to it properly”, did that ever activate happen? Not the map at least?
Also something I never paid attention to before: there’s a tractor here! How? Why? Is there more machinery in Iceland? And hopefully also at the mines?
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 09, 2022, 06:19:06 PM
Someone commented that Iceland is usually a safe location for those plague games (I used to play plague inc, and always made an effort to hit the island nations...). Though it is a logical "safe site"
One of the comments that someone wrote about the hole in the pants was he was wearing 90 year old pants (Could be!! My head cannon is people would definitely scavenge old clothes, sunglasses. Especially if the were still wrapped and made of non-natural materials. That stuff will last forever..)
An MS. Iceland is so smug.. grrrr
Plus a lot of speculation on Reynir (aka Braidy..I hate that name braidy)
Post by: Suominoita on May 10, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
Idiots Sigrun and Lalli (Sigrun volunteered for the "vacation" and Lalli mostly didn't have any idea what was going on until well into foreign lands; he just got pushed into it by his cousin and then trapped by the language barrier)
Desperate (recently fired) Mickel Madsen.
Those who hate their current employers with a burning passion (Emil)
Those who are extremely bored. Tuuri.
Unplanned: a desperate recently orphaned kitten/cat and a bored idiot join up later.
Well, at least this explains why they don't pick a crew who would at least share a language.
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 10, 2022, 05:15:34 PM
Oh yes, the planned bunch of weirdos:Suominoita,
Idiots Sigrun and Lalli (Sigrun volunteered for the "vacation" and Lalli mostly didn't have any idea what was going on until well into foreign lands; he just got pushed into it by his cousin and then trapped by the language barrier)
Desperate (recently fired) Mickel Madsen.
Those who hate their current employers with a burning passion (Emil)
Those who are extremely bored. Tuuri.
Unplanned: a desperate recently orphaned kitten/cat and a bored idiot join up later.
Well, at least this explains why they don't pick a crew who would at least share a language.
You are spot on!! I never really thought it that way. That is so right there!!
Post by: tehta on May 10, 2022, 06:00:08 PM
Anyway, what do we think were the eight original expedition positions? Captain, cleanser, day scout, night scout, skald, map reader (?), medic/cook, and ? Or were the medic and the cook separate? I feel like they really needed another military role.
Interesting detail: the loose cobblestone the old people (as Trond calls them) complain about later trips him up.
Post by: JoB on May 11, 2022, 02:24:45 AM
Anyway, what do we think were the eight original expedition positions? Captain, cleanser, day scout, night scout, skald, map reader (?), medic/cook, and ? Or were the medic and the cook separate? I feel like they really needed another military role.Well, they were planning to have a cat until the cutback ... maybe it would have been an admewral? 8)
Post by: tehta on May 14, 2022, 03:21:33 PM
I do like people in the comments wondering whether Emil is related to Siv and Torb (and so to the original Swedish family) and saying surely they wouldn't send a relative into danger. And also being worried about the potentially hallucinating sleep-deprived single scout. Oh, and theorizing that Mikkel will accept the job because he's been fired.
And what do we think about the fruit juice scene? I don't really have a problem with fruit juice being expensive -- fresh juice is expensive even now! But it really should be alcohol. So my headcanon is that 'juice' is Y90 slang for booze.
And that first glimpse of the team, eee! I am excited to meet them (again) in the very near future.
Post by: JoB on May 15, 2022, 04:05:44 AM
I don't really have a problem with fruit juice being expensive -- fresh juice is expensive even now! But it really should be alcohol. So my headcanon is that 'juice' is Y90 slang for booze.Hm. And then "fruit juice" would refer to Kirschwasser, Himbeergeist, Marillenbrand and the like (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_brandy)? But it would still likely be the fruit part that makes it so expensive, given how readily alcohol can be produced in any climate, wouldn't it? I can see that happening to salvage shipments of fruit that have already started to ferment during transport, but for the health benefits in a world bereft of vitamin pills and global trade, I'd expect them to prefer fruit juice over fruit "juice" nonetheless.
... in any case, if they imbibe "juice" out of the same type of glass Siv had filled with water (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=64), it'd better be a rather soft cider (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cider) - like Viez (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apfelwein) - instead of the likes of Slivovitz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slivovitz). :o
Edit to add: Emil at around page 139 (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=139): "... about those 'rules of engagement' you wrote up for us all the way back in Reykjavík, why do you want us to bring female prisoners, and why would you put that in French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poire_Williams)??"
Post by: thorny on May 15, 2022, 11:07:49 PM
Anyway, what do we think were the eight original expedition positions? Captain, cleanser, day scout, night scout, skald, map reader (?), medic/cook, and ?
Mechanic/driver. Which they do have, in Tuuri; and a good thing, too. As a skald, she's filling two of the probable original eight positions.
But I think, as JoB says, that one position was Cat. Maybe cleanser wasn't a position, but they wound up with one anyway? Or maybe Cat was the remaining position, and they hadn't even thought of a mechanic, but hired Tuuri only as a skald and got a mechanic by pure luck.
what do we think about the fruit juice scene? I don't really have a problem with fruit juice being expensive --
They ought to have apple cider, and perry. But maybe due to storage issues both of those are much more common in the alcoholic version, and therefore maybe not thought of as "fruit juice".
Post by: Róisín on May 16, 2022, 02:36:08 AM
Post by: JoB on May 16, 2022, 02:43:09 AM
The greenhouses of Iceland may provide other fruits and their juices, maybe even citrusThey have ALL THE FRUITS! (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=549)
Post by: Jitter on May 16, 2022, 04:08:50 PM
But the Västerströms! Emil has lived with them, their kids love him even though they apparently don’t, they clearly have a close relationship. Them sending Emil off to die with the exploration party is inexcusable. I could have accepted them scheming with him to get the family fortune back, and him in foolishness deciding to go on his own volition, but that’s not what happened. They decided to prey on the foolish and desperate, and thus decided to target their kin. Horrible horrible people. 😤
Post by: tehta on May 16, 2022, 05:02:43 PM
Wherever Taru lived, Lalli didn't seem to know her at the boat. But, yeah, that's Lalli. She might have been his neighbour for all we know.
Post by: lwise on May 16, 2022, 05:16:06 PM
I think my feelings on the Evil Committee, especially the Västerströms, are well-known (at least to you, Jitter). Even if they didn't care about Emil--perhaps they remember him only as a spoiled brat, and haven't noticed his finer points--shouldn't they care that their kids would be devastated by his death? Maybe they actually stand to profit if he dies, because of some kind of inheritance shenanigans?
Maybe Sweden has redeveloped the life insurance industry.
(Adding this to the Fic Ideas list.)
Is there a Fic Ideas list?
Post by: tehta on May 16, 2022, 07:05:41 PM
I like the life insurance idea! It could also maybe work in Taru's favour? Her "we're not closely related" could have been misdirection, to cover the policies she had taken out on all her young cousins. (If that were the case, she will surely be able to afford a few extra monocles now that Tuuri's gone.)
Post by: lwise on May 16, 2022, 07:09:51 PM
The list of fic ideas I mentioned is just something I have in a doc, where I write down my "clever" ideas. Comes in handy for weekly challenges and similar, sometimes.
I like the life insurance idea! It could also maybe work in Taru's favour? Her "we're not closely related" could have been misdirection, to cover the policies she had taken out on all her young cousins. (If that were the case, she will surely be able to afford a few extra monocles now that Tuuri's gone.)
Quite possibly she only had three young cousins, if Veeti and Ensi were only children, since Ensi only had the twin sons.
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 16, 2022, 08:15:55 PM
The list of fic ideas I mentioned is just something I have in a doc, where I write down my "clever" ideas. Comes in handy for weekly challenges and similar, sometimes.
I like the life insurance idea! It could also maybe work in Taru's favour? Her "we're not closely related" could have been misdirection, to cover the policies she had taken out on all her young cousins. (If that were the case, she will surely be able to afford a few extra monocles now that Tuuri's gone.)
I would think any policy would be null and void going into the silent lands. Unless you paid a lot up front
Post by: Lazerbird on May 16, 2022, 09:00:11 PM
I am appalled by the schemers all over again. They know it’s basically a suicide mission, and yet they send in their kin. Taru I can see of dismissing the Hotakainens as distant relatives (although I would imagine they were all living in Keuruu?), and Trond didn’t have an exact say on who he got from Norway.To be fair in scandinavian/viking legend and sagas, the people who are most likely to betray, harm or kill you are almost always your relatives
But the Västerströms! Emil has lived with them, their kids love him even though they apparently don’t, they clearly have a close relationship. Them sending Emil off to die with the exploration party is inexcusable. I could have accepted them scheming with him to get the family fortune back, and him in foolishness deciding to go on his own volition, but that’s not what happened. They decided to prey on the foolish and desperate, and thus decided to target their kin. Horrible horrible people. 😤
Post by: lwise on May 16, 2022, 09:20:49 PM
I would think any policy would be null and void going into the silent lands. Unless you paid a lot up front
Maybe part of the contract between the sponsors and the Nordic Council included a death benefit payable to next of kin or named beneficiaries in the likely event that one of the explorers died. The beneficiary designation was in Icelandic, which Emil can't read, so Siv just put it in front of him and told him to sign up for the expedition. Lalli would sign whatever Taru told him to sign, so the only sticking point would be getting Tuuri to sign.
Post by: Suominoita on May 16, 2022, 10:09:11 PM
Maybe part of the contract between the sponsors and the Nordic Council included a death benefit payable to next of kin or named beneficiaries in the likely event that one of the explorers died. The beneficiary designation was in Icelandic, which Emil can't read, so Siv just put it in front of him and told him to sign up for the expedition. Lalli would sign whatever Taru told him to sign, so the only sticking point would be getting Tuuri to sign.
Quite likely, or rather that your paycheck will be paid to your kin if you die, considering the end of Adventure I/beginning of Adventure II when Lalli got two paychecks and tried to give the other to Onni -- seeing as Tuuri's brother is closer kin than her cousin. Except that Onni told him to keep it.
Post by: Jitter on May 17, 2022, 03:51:29 AM
Lwise I think there is a thread for fic ideas somewhere. I would imagine the writing board?
Post by: JoB on May 17, 2022, 04:21:26 AM
Hrrrr the life insurance idea is chilling!Wait 'til you find out about the betting pool they had going! :P
(Torbjörn had to do his darndest to keep Siv from placing one.)
Post by: tehta on May 17, 2022, 05:18:00 AM
Maybe I should stop this now. But I am taking the insurance idea and planning to use it in the future.
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 17, 2022, 07:59:13 AM
Trond, in my opinion would be a Y90/Nordic version of a Cosa Nostra godfather.
Taru, could fit is a lot of categories, but i think she is in with Trond
Post by: lwise on May 17, 2022, 08:01:24 AM
But some people might retreat to a shelter with food and water for years, or at least with enough weapons and ammo that they're able to survive for a long time. Their descendants might still be there, hunting grosslings by day and hiding out by night, not even knowing that other people have survived.
Alternatively, how many trolls found their way into such well-protected shelters, and would have to be laboriously dug out if you wanted to cleanse an area?
Post by: lwise on May 17, 2022, 08:06:28 AM
Trond, in my opinion would be a Y90/Nordic version of a Cosa Nostra godfather.
Ooh, now there's a thought! So there's organized crime in Sweden, centered in Mora (of course), and Emil's family lost its wealth in a gangland war. Emil's father, the prior godfather, was murdered, and poor innocent Emil was left alive because, like the Cosa Nostra, these criminals don't make war on family members. Probably Emil doesn't know about the family's connection with crime as no one trusts him to keep his mouth shut.
Post by: tehta on May 17, 2022, 08:15:45 AM
(BTW, I think there are plenty of fics that portray Torb and especially Siv sympathetically. I actually felt a little worried when I first wrote them as evil. Of course, now I stick pins in them every chance I get.)
Post by: JoB on May 17, 2022, 10:50:32 AM
It seems that Finland has shelters for the entire population in case of nuclear war, which I find awesome in reality. But in the SSSS context, I expect that few people would take to those shelters or if they did, they would probably have food and water for only a few weeks, and then they'd have to come out and face the monsters.(It's actually quite normal for fallout shelters and the like to be designed to hold out only 2+ weeks, especially the privately-owned ones. If you go significantly beyond that, you need special long-term-storage food, instead of cycling normal stuff through your "basement larder" - and no, elephant skin pizza that you need to keep frozen doesn't cut it. All-out WWIII isn't the only scenario they're built for, after all.)
Alternatively, how many trolls found their way into such well-protected shelters, and would have to be laboriously dug out if you wanted to cleanse an area?Remember, you only need it dead, not disintegrated. Fill shelter with flamethrower fluid first, light it, then pour concrete to taste.
which leads me to wonder whether drugs are involved, and if not, what sort of vices are used to support the Family.Well, Sigrun - as a member of the family - once remarked that they get all the fruits from Iceland ... 8)
Post by: lwise on May 17, 2022, 12:12:27 PM
(It's actually quite normal for fallout shelters and the like to be designed to hold out only 2+ weeks, especially the privately-owned ones. If you go significantly beyond that, you need special long-term-storage food, instead of cycling normal stuff through your "basement larder" - and no, elephant skin pizza that you need to keep frozen doesn't cut it. All-out WWIII isn't the only scenario they're built for, after all.)
True, but if you had a real prepper with a several-years supply of freeze-dried food for the family, they could survive for a long time. The problem would be water and sanitation, but if they set up rain barrels and dumpsites in sunny places, and only came out by day ...
Post by: Jitter on May 17, 2022, 02:39:55 PM
Post by: lwise on May 17, 2022, 03:11:44 PM
Post by: Jitter on May 17, 2022, 06:12:06 PM
But as far as I’m concerned, do keep up speculating about the motivations of the Schemers. It’s unclear in canon anyway.
I have also written fluffy Yule stories where Emil and Lalli are in Mora with the Västerströms, and in my ”main arc” Toivosaari Siv at least send nice packages to Emil so I’m not 100% in They Are Evil camp, but the more I consider their actions the more I disapprove. I have to say I can easily see Trond as a crimelord :)
Oh and I think we have at least one fic on it already, featuring Vile Västerströms who absolutely everyone is terrified of. It’s very dark, which is why I didn’t finish it at the time but it might suit my current mood better! I think it’s one of Looney_DAC’s
Post by: LooNEY_DAC on May 17, 2022, 07:19:01 PM
Oh and I think we have at least one fic on it already, featuring Vile Västerströms who absolutely everyone is terrified of. It’s very dark, which is why I didn’t finish it at the time but it might suit my current mood better! I think it’s one of Looney_DAC’sYes (https://archiveofourown.org/works/21201896/chapters/50471588), but it isn't finished.
Post by: Jitter on May 21, 2022, 10:00:22 AM
Lalli’s arrival to his “home” or barracks room is heartbreaking. The only personal detail is that his blankets are under the bed. Maybe, just maybe, there are cosy sommon rooms somewhere, and he meets with family and friends there? But maybe not. It is sad.
On the other hand, at the docks Onni holds both Lalli and Tuuri in his arms. Trying to stop them from going, sure, but it is a lo of human touch and Lalli doesn’t seem to mind at all (or not any more than he minds all of the confusion).
And here’s Taru again, denouncing their being close relatives. So I’m pretty sure she has not lived in Keuruu at least for a few years now. Tuuri is telling Lalli about her being their cousin as news. I mean Lalli could have not known her even if she did live there, but Tuuri would have known her and their kinship at least on some level. Based on the interaction it may be that she and Onni are more familiar with each other, s perhaps she has lived there ealer b moved away before Tuuri and Lalli became adults. Or “adults”, I sort of agree with Onni that thy don’t seem to be capable of making rational decisions…
BTW I went to Keuruu last winter. I’ve been meaning to make a scouting report, is anyone interested?
Post by: tehta on May 21, 2022, 10:59:26 AM
Anyway, yes, finally! It must have been so exciting for in-real-time readers to reach this point, and meet these characters for the first time.
I don't hate Lalli's room. It seems cozy, with everything a person needs, and it's all his own. I would imagine that young soldiers often have to share? Well, Lalli may be young, but he's been in the military for years. Although... his 'job' doesn't sound strictly military, if it's something that allows for casual firing/quitting. Also: is Lalli's place even in the barracks, or civilian quarters? the fact that it's behind a wall suggests the civilian quarters on the map, doesn't it?
It's amusing to me to remember that Lalli's default expression used to be confusion. By Adventure Two it seems to be annoyance.
Onni's default expression is more consistent but, wow, his facial structure looks very different to me than Adventure Two Onni. Tuuri is just adorable, in her excitement!
And I like how Onni says he would never call Tuuri an idiot, then proceeds to do so right afterwards.
The interaction with Taru is weird indeed. I agree that she doesn't seem to run in the same Keuruu circles as our heroes. As for how she seems to know the older ones, well, is it possible that she only really met Onni when she offered him that job? (She's also right that Tuuri and Lalli are good at their jobs, so she lucked out there!)
Oh, and I don't think Lalli tends to freak out when touched in general? Later, Tuuri will tell a train employee that he won't resist just being put on the train. (Which is worrying, actually.) I think it's possible that he avoided Onni's later hug to avoid the emotional side of it.
Post by: Jitter on May 21, 2022, 11:15:57 AM
And final panel on p 76… Tuuri oh Tuurii. Never not too soon.
Post by: tehta on May 21, 2022, 11:22:59 AM
Anyway, yeah, you are right, he does seem to mind being manhandled, like when Mikkel lifts him. So maybe Tuuri is not being strictly truthful with that train guy?
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 21, 2022, 12:22:15 PM
I don't hate Lalli's room. It seems cozy, with everything a person needs, and it's all his own. I would imagine that young soldiers often have to share? Well, Lalli may be young, but he's been in the military for years. Although... his 'job' doesn't sound strictly military, if it's something that allows for casual firing/quitting. Also: is Lalli's place even in the barracks, or civilian quarters? the fact that it's behind a wall suggests the civilian quarters on the map, doesn't it?Lalli may not be the best roommate and the higher-ups decided it is best to leave him alone. Also he is a night scout. Working different hours from most of the other staff.
Onni's default expression is more consistent but, wow, his facial structure looks very different to me than Adventure Two Onni. Tuuri is just adorable, in her excitement!Most of the characters changed a bit as the adventures wore on. I like ADVII Onni better than early ADVI
The interaction with Taru is weird indeed. I agree that she doesn't seem to run in the same Keuruu circles as our heroes. As for how she seems to know the older ones, well, is it possible that she only really met Onni when she offered him that job? (She's also right that Tuuri and Lalli are good at their jobs, so she lucked out there!)officers vrs enlisted? In many militaries interacting is forbidden or looked down on.
She definitely did luck out with Lalli and Tuuri.
Post by: tehta on May 21, 2022, 01:22:57 PM
(I mean, it's clear that this is not happening here, because of the bed-under-the-bed, but it amuses me as an idea.)
Post by: Jitter on May 21, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
This again makes me raise the question I have wondered before - why is the army stationed s far from main population? Or do they train here but deploy smaller troops to the populated areas? What is he point?
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 21, 2022, 03:05:02 PM
Actually, now that you mention it, Lalli being a nightscout would be the perfect reason for him to have a roommate: a dayscout! Hotbunking is common in some military situations.
(I mean, it's clear that this is not happening here, because of the bed-under-the-bed, but it amuses me as an idea.)
I did not think about hot-bunking. That can be the case especially if Keuruu is small. (I believe it happens
in submarine situations, where space is at a premium.)
Post by: JoB on May 21, 2022, 06:46:31 PM
Although... his 'job' doesn't sound strictly military, if it's something that allows for casual firing/quitting. Also: is Lalli's place even in the barracks, or civilian quarters? the fact that it's behind a wall suggests the civilian quarters on the map, doesn't it?The only two places on the map of Keuruu where you can possibly cross a stream (by drawbridge) to get to a wall and have buildings right behind it are by the quarantine facility in the South (entering Keuruu proper), or in the Northwest (getting on the small-ish island there). In both cases, the buildings behind the wall are marked in red, so, barracks. (Though if this is in the South, Lalli wouldn't have to walk far to get through the inner wall and into the civilian quarters, so that could, in theory, have happened between panels.)
Either way, the population statistics next to the map summarily place "Scouts" under the header of "Military".
And here’s Taru again, denouncing their being close relatives. So I’m pretty sure she has not lived in Keuruu at least for a few years now.There may be a Hollola buried in Toivosaari (http://sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=108), but none made an appearance in Lallis flashback, even though supposedly more or less the whole town was present for the baker's sale ...
BTW I went to Keuruu last winter. I’ve been meaning to make a scouting report, is anyone interested?No.
Spoiler: show
Page 70 has a short discussion on whether cats are edible. No Róisín back then to clarify, it seems. :P
why is the army stationed s far from main population?To better protect the civilians? :-X
Post by: Róisín on May 21, 2022, 10:23:29 PM
Post by: JoB on May 22, 2022, 04:10:53 AM
Isn’t there some kind of military base near our-world Keuruu?If I remember correctly, even back when it first appeared in SSSS, the military base at Keuruu had already been much reduced and the unused facilities repurposed (http://motorsport-solutions.com/keuruu-insideservice/). There were ... an engineering corps and a training facility still left, I think, but no outright base.
Post by: tehta on May 22, 2022, 06:47:39 AM
And I wasn't saying that Lalli was not military, but I am not sure what that means in Keuruu, beyond one's job specialization. The way Lalli and Tuuri could quit their jobs feels not-very-military to me. So maybe some members of the military live in civilian housing? There sure seems to be a lot of it, for such a small civilian population.
But I agree that the southern gate looks like it could be where Lalli turns up. It's also close enough to the docks that he could get there quickly.
The no-children thing is interesting. Were the Hotakainen kids anomalies, then, or were they old enough not to really count as children?
Post by: Jitter on May 22, 2022, 08:45:51 AM
The Keuruu engineer corps has been discontinued since, but it was still operational in 2013. And BTW Minna mentions the ship being versioned from an existing ship, but that is in the comments so I hadn’t seen it and didn’t know. So I was pleasantly surprised to see this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLPvYCpK/EADCDA5-B-25-C2-4-B34-AD2-D-3-BA0178-DEB2-E.jpg)
Post by: tehta on May 22, 2022, 08:59:47 AM
And I probably became aware of the second marriage idea because of your story!
Also: I forgot to comment earlier, but would love to see the scouting report.
Post by: lwise on May 22, 2022, 09:06:51 AM
If I remember correctly, even back when it first appeared in SSSS, the military base at Keuruu had already been much reduced and the unused facilities repurposed (http://motorsport-solutions.com/keuruu-insideservice/). There were ... an engineering corps and a training facility still left, I think, but no outright base.
I imagine ... there was by chance a cluster of immunes among the engineering corps and the groups in training. With heavy equipment belonging to the engineering corps, they were able to set up defenses early on, and survivors from the area fled to their protection. For years, they stayed where they were, surviving as best they could, not knowing if there even were any other survivors out there. When they got in touch with the rest of the world, a generation later, well, why would they pull up stakes and move? Instead, they leveraged their position and experience to continue training soldiers.
By the way ... the first time I saw the page, I thought Keuruu (or at least part of it) was a repurposed rail yard. Don't those barracks look like train cars? And doesn't the building at the top of the page look like a train?
Post by: JoB on May 22, 2022, 10:51:33 AM
And I wasn't saying that Lalli was not military, but I am not sure what that means in Keuruu, beyond one's job specialization. The way Lalli and Tuuri could quit their jobs feels not-very-military to me.It certainly wouldn't work that way in our current-day militaries, but that's because it takes a lot of training with very modern weapon systems to get a truly battle-ready army (where "battle" means a fight against a similarly-trained army), and replacements for those who quit aren't readily available. The military of the Known World fights not-quite-lucent monsters, with what limited technology they have, and is part of the lives of a substantial percentage of the population already.
The no-children thing is interesting. Were the Hotakainen kids anomalies, then, or were they old enough not to really count as children?The official wording is that the young Hotakainens weren't "children" but "apprentices (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic2.php?page=145)".
The Keuruu engineer corps has been discontinued since, but it was still operational in 2013.But that corps was not what the original "military base" at Keuruu was about, was it ... ?
And BTW Minna mentions the ship being versioned from an existing ship, but that is in the comments so I hadn’t seen it and didn’t know.AFAIK she never comfirmed, though, that it is indeed the Elias Lönnrot (https://sssscomic.fandom.com/wiki/Paddlewheeler) ...
By the way ... the first time I saw the page, I thought Keuruu (or at least part of it) was a repurposed rail yard. Don't those barracks look like train cars? And doesn't the building at the top of the page look like a train?RL Keuruu has a train station (https://www.google.de/maps/place/Keuruu/@62.2542701,24.7069757,16z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4685f30cf7e068a7:0xa4bae156e2c2a3d3!8m2!3d62.2554951!4d24.7079088), but no yard that I can see offhand. :)
(The church tower in Lallis flashback (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=386) supposedly is the one of the real old church (https://www.google.de/maps/@62.2564944,24.7054168,3a,75y,44.95h,109.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNxbhuLFyx9xAtEWcl2K13w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) of Keuruu, though.)
Post by: Jitter on May 22, 2022, 11:27:06 AM
Minna: “Yup. It's not for heavy duty ice breaking, but just enough to not get damaged or stuck some unfortunate trip. They've got a couple of full time ice breakers too to keep the waters open all through winter.
And the boat is actually a slight modification of an existing boat in Keuruu, I didn't just pull it all from my head or anything.. :3”
Note also that they do have ice breakers here, but apparently not at Saimaa, or at least enough to spare on keeping the canal open.
Post by: JoB on May 22, 2022, 11:33:01 AM
She does confirm it, on page 72 in response to a question by Greenwood Goat:I said she never confirmed that it is the Elias Lönnrot, though I have to admit that the selection of paddlewheelers in Keuruu in post-2k years certainly didn't amount to a Danish invasion fleet. :3
"And the boat is actually a slight modification of an existing boat in Keuruu, I didn't just pull it all from my head or anything.. :3”
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 23, 2022, 09:39:22 AM
Post by: lwise on May 23, 2022, 09:44:55 AM
On page 70. I LOVE how cats are almost 9% of the population (Grade A at that) I wonder how many others there are...
Maybe they breed and train cats in Keuruu.
Post by: Jitter on May 23, 2022, 04:19:36 PM
Ther is some brilliant stuff in the comments. Load of poetry, ranging from good to really good, Greenwood Goat’s ficlets / scenes, loads of speculation by JoB, and several bouts of hilarity. For example scenes fm the Lalli-centric fanfiction series Scouting for Love in p 73 and freedom for potatoes in 68 🤣
Post by: tehta on May 23, 2022, 07:59:55 PM
- Discussion of Emil in-comic: the four-toe thing obviously implies that meeting people from other countries is rare, at least for the ordinary people of Keuruu.
- Discussion of Emil in the comments: people expressing hope that he will be suave, ha.
- Discussion of Lalli focuses on how adorable and cat-like he is, including the question of whether his animal spirit is a cat.
- Speaking of cats... Wow! Seeing so many here makes me sad that they became sparser in Adventure Two. There weren't so many on the boat INTO Finland. (Although maybe it's because, as hypothesized, Keuruu is Finland's top cat-training center, so its boats have the best cats?)
- Tuuri is adorable. Too bad the first thing she sees is logs. (The logging industry is interesting, though: I think in Adv Two we see a Finnish logging ship in Iceland? So Taru was right.)
- "Cities are bad": it sounds like Lalli is referring to all those people who could bug him, but I think he is referring to all those trolls he knows are in old-world cities.
- "The Swedes helped us burn it down": yep, that sounds like Swedes alright. I wonder if a Cleanser visit where Onni's friend met the mythical eight-toed Swede?
Post by: wavewright62 on May 24, 2022, 02:47:07 AM
This again makes me raise the question I have wondered before - why is the army stationed s far from main population? Or do they train here but deploy smaller troops to the populated areas? What is he point?
I assume the base is there to protect the strategic and economic Keuruu-Pori waterway.
In general, Minna kind of generally flubbed the math and biology on the ages when her Prologue characters had their children. The only ones with a hope of a realistic timeline are Reynir's antecedents, and the amount of 50+ parents having surviving children without our levels of healthcare is fairly amazing. Minna made a huge rod for her own back with that family tree as it was, so I'm rather sanguine about it.
Taru is a 'military strategist' so who knows where she's been. She seems to be the one with half a clue on protocol in dealing with the Nordic Council (but not the dress code oh my goodness no), can read the requisition reports quickly enough to play spot-the-difference in real time, and speaks Icelandic while not being a skald, so I assume she has spent time in Iceland. (Ditto Trond, a non-skald in a country with little emphasis on education.)
Post by: tehta on May 24, 2022, 04:39:21 AM
(Or maybe she has been fired, which is why she is now working on evil schemes.)
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 24, 2022, 09:08:42 AM
She seems to be the one with half a clue on protocol in dealing with the Nordic Council (but not the dress code oh my goodness no), can read the requisition reports quickly enough to play spot-the-difference in real time, and speaks Icelandic while not being a skald, so I assume she has spent time in Iceland. (Ditto Trond, a non-skald in a country with little emphasis on education.)
Maybe that is how Taru dressed when she was younger? (it worked then?)
Post by: lwise on May 24, 2022, 09:17:14 AM
Post by: JoB on May 24, 2022, 09:19:15 AM
Maybe that is how Taru dressed when she was younger? (it worked then?)[wonders whether there's a pacifier at the other end of the monocle's chain]
Just noticed for the first time ever: "The Nordic council of History and Rediscovery (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=59)"? And the first expedition into the Silent Lands ever still has to come as a third party's initiative? What have those people been rediscovering, the bottoms of their own paper-waste baskets that someone pushed 2 ft farther from their desks than usual?
Post by: lwise on May 24, 2022, 09:22:03 AM
In general, Minna kind of generally flubbed the math and biology on the ages when her Prologue characters had their children. The only ones with a hope of a realistic timeline are Reynir's antecedents, and the amount of 50+ parents having surviving children without our levels of healthcare is fairly amazing. Minna made a huge rod for her own back with that family tree as it was, so I'm rather sanguine about it.
I view the family tree as the "official" family tree, prepared by a perhaps unreliable narrator. Figuring out how to cover the flaws is an exercise for (fanfic) reader.
Post by: lwise on May 24, 2022, 09:23:00 AM
Just noticed for the first time ever: "The Nordic council of History and Rediscovery (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=59)"? And the first expedition into the Silent Lands ever still has to come as a third party's initiative? What have those people been rediscovering, the bottoms of their own paper-waste baskets that someone pushed 2 ft farther from their desks than usual?
And ... you find that unlikely?
Post by: Suominoita on May 24, 2022, 09:45:46 AM
I think Mau… is most likely either Mauno or Mauri, both male names of about similar feel of age / period as Hilja. I also think Taru is from a second marriage, I wrote about it not very long ago I think.Of those two, I'd go with Mauno just to avoid confusion as we already had one Mauri on the site.
Post by: Jitter on May 24, 2022, 03:14:56 PM
Post by: wavewright62 on May 25, 2022, 11:46:51 PM
Just noticed for the first time ever: "The Nordic council of History and Rediscovery (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=59)"? And the first expedition into the Silent Lands ever still has to come as a third party's initiative? What have those people been rediscovering, the bottoms of their own paper-waste baskets that someone pushed 2 ft farther from their desks than usual?
bwaHAHAHAhah a a hh *snort*
No, but seriously - in their eyes Iceland 'rediscovered' the other nations that now make up the Known World.
I suspect that the much-discussed pink 'clean' islands scattered about (eg in the Shetlands) weren't a nation per se.
Post by: tehta on May 31, 2022, 10:07:10 AM
I am getting through them only slowly due to RL, but it's been fun. Many people were quite impressed by him as a character (both his looks, and his comedy potential); quite a few drew attention to his likely future problems in communication with Lalli. Personally, I found it quite interesting to see how he interacts with his "family": he shouts at them, and they belittle him (even beyond correcting his ridiculous claims -- "wrong as usual"?) And yet, there are hugs. And YET, he is being sent to his likely death.
Note that Emil is the only person who packed something of use, although of course we know that it was not something legal. And the commenters who mock him for bringing a rolly suitcase are wrong! That would have been just fine in the tank. (Maybe Lalli could have slept in it, even.)
Another small point: someone hypothesizing that the Rash was caused by a fungus, because of the sunlight thing. Interesting!
Post by: lwise on May 31, 2022, 10:39:59 AM
I am getting through them only slowly due to RL, but it's been fun. Many people were quite impressed by him as a character (both his looks, and his comedy potential); quite a few drew attention to his likely future problems in communication with Lalli. Personally, I found it quite interesting to see how he interacts with his "family": he shouts at them, and they belittle him (even beyond correcting his ridiculous claims -- "wrong as usual"?) And yet, there are hugs. And YET, he is being sent to his likely death.
At this point in the story, it doesn't seem to me that the characters would believe that Emil was being sent to his likely death. It's true that Siv said, "I think we've already removed everything our crew will need to survive", but she can't have truly believed that. The point of the expedition was to bring back books (or something, if we suppose that Trond and Mikkel had their own agenda), so there would be no reason to send them at all if they were all just going to die. Also, no one expected the bridge to collapse. If it had not collapsed, they would have tooled around in their tank for a couple of weeks, then come home. If they'd run into anything they couldn't handle, they'd have made tracks back to base, so their situation wouldn't have been that dangerous ... if the bridge hadn't collapsed.
So, much as I enjoy evil Vasterstroms, I think they can still be interpreted as less than evil.
Post by: tehta on May 31, 2022, 11:36:28 AM
But I forgot my main question. Why are all those (potentially non-evil) Vasterstroms meeting the Finns way over there? Surely Taru could escort the clueless ones to Mora herself. And Emil can surely get there without any escort. (By the way, why is he all the way over at this end of Sweden, anyway? Was he cleansing out there? Visiting his weirdly absent dad?
Were the (definitely super-nice) Vasterstroms just trying to get away from the triplets? But that train ticket wasn't free, and neither was the babysitter, so they clearly felt they needed to be there.
Post by: lwise on May 31, 2022, 12:30:35 PM
But I forgot my main question. Why are all those (potentially non-evil) Vasterstroms meeting the Finns way over there? Surely Taru could escort the clueless ones to Mora herself. And Emil can surely get there without any escort. (By the way, why is he all the way over at this end of Sweden, anyway? Was he cleansing out there? Visiting his weirdly absent dad?
Were the (definitely super-nice) Vasterstroms just trying to get away from the triplets? But that train ticket wasn't free, and neither was the babysitter, so they clearly felt they needed to be there.
That's a good question. He came by train from somewhere, and judging by the map of the Known World, the only train to Bjorkofjarden comes from Mora. But if he came from Mora, why bother? And why did he still have his contraband explosives?
Post by: lwise on May 31, 2022, 12:34:48 PM
Oh, I know many interpretations are possible. I just enjoy throwing Evil Vasterstroms comments in everywhere.
On the Evil Vasterstroms questions, we could go back to the death benefit possibility. They don't expect the books to be worth much, so they don't care that Our Heroes going to die, and in fact they want the team to die so they can pocket the death benefit. It was a shock and a disappointment to them when Emil came back alive ...
Post by: Jitter on May 31, 2022, 02:51:32 PM
Although, there are also daily ships to Denmark and Norway from here, so they could have arrived from somewhere else where they were making preparations. But even then, surely just one of them could have gone while the other stayed home, saving both a ticket and the babysitter payment.
More importantly, this is where we get to see the classic Allt of Spadar! A magnificent tale it is!
Post by: Jitter on May 31, 2022, 02:57:40 PM
I wonder what was Tuuri’s main field as an academic if all of this is completely new to her?
Post by: lwise on May 31, 2022, 03:31:43 PM
To go back to the previous section (last week was a nightmare), I love the panel with the log boats on p 89. Here (p 90) we also learn that all cities are bad, and not just the Tampere and Nokia seclusions covered earlier. Also that “church” on p 91 isn’t, we don’t have churches like that in Finland. It’s remains of an industrial building with two chimneys.
I wonder what was Tuuri’s main field as an academic if all of this is completely new to her?
Maybe her education was word-of-mouth due to lack of books, so she'd never actually seen any pictures with which to compare the ruins.
Post by: tehta on May 31, 2022, 04:52:08 PM
Post by: Róisín on May 31, 2022, 05:52:30 PM
Post by: Lazerbird on May 31, 2022, 07:12:59 PM
Post by: dmeck7755 on May 31, 2022, 07:31:00 PM
Onni and Lalli are very skilled mages. That is their talent
Tuuri talent was intelligence. Her magic power
Post by: Lazerbird on May 31, 2022, 09:02:59 PM
Post by: Róisín on May 31, 2022, 09:45:40 PM
Post by: tehta on June 01, 2022, 06:47:27 AM
The mystery of why all the Swedes met the ferry remains.
I like the idea that Siv and Torb came by boat, from some other location. Maybe they were picking up some small, specific supplies on the cheap, like the uniforms (or just part of them, like the boots?) or medicines. Or maps! With potential targets on them! That would be something they would be suited to, rather than Trond or Taru. (Incidentally, if boat travel to Denmark is possible, then why do people even take the murder train? I guess it's usually less murder-y, and a 9/10 danger rating doesn't mean a full-on giant attack?)
As for Emil, however, we know that he arrived by train, and from his confused behaviour it seems like he wasn't familiar with the town. So, er. Maybe he had been cleansing somewhere near there? I am sure that cleansers work all along the main railway lines.
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 01, 2022, 07:49:37 AM
Yep, knowledge tempered by wisdom. Says the old person who as a very small child set out with the fixed intention of ‘learning everything in the world’. I was about four when I realised that this was impossible to do because new things were being discovered so fast that I couldn’t keep up, and because the old people from whom I was beginning to learn things were dying off before they could tell me all they knew. I was shattered, cried for a week, then picked myself up and decided that if I couldn’t learn everything in the world, I was still going to learn all I could, and pass it on. I’m still happily busy doing that.
I agree, learning keeps you alive!!
Post by: Róisín on June 01, 2022, 08:41:38 AM
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 03, 2022, 09:18:13 AM
On page 96 panel 2 it look like a smiley face between the two buildings (cute)
(it also looks like the amazon logo if you are a bit more cynical 🔥 )
Post by: Lazerbird on June 03, 2022, 08:06:17 PM
Post by: wavewright62 on June 04, 2022, 06:07:22 AM
Most of what we actually saw skalds *doing* (in other parts of the comic) was keeping records. But Tuuri had mechanical skills, could operate a film camera (not that we ever saw her truly do so), and could type. Learning Swedish was something she did for herself, on the side. (There would certainly English and German materials around as well, but the topic never came up in canon.)
Post by: JoB on June 04, 2022, 07:08:25 AM
(There would certainly English and German materials around as well, but the topic never came up in canon.)Weeeeeeelllllll, sorta-kinda:
"Some skalds also retain the ability to decipher various other Old World languages. (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=196)"
What do they retain that ability for, if not for the sake of sources in those languages. And while these language trees merely point out in passing that West Germanic languages - including the two heavyweights - are the closest relatives to the Scandinavian ones, the previous page singles out "related" English "for comparison's sake".
Post by: Jitter on June 04, 2022, 08:21:42 AM
I was really hyped when I saw that panel for the first time, and I still love it. It really gives me immersion into this world.
Post by: Suominoita on June 04, 2022, 06:44:14 PM
Post by: Jitter on June 09, 2022, 04:37:38 PM
A tidbit from her in the discussion - the station guard has a radio thing, and she confirms not only that it works but also that they are able to manufacture more of them. They are just very expensive.
There’s also a question from someone about whether there will be only white people in the comic. In his one there are several people giving reasonable explanation, and some telling the person who asked to chill. Minna herself just comments that she draws what she prefers to draw. No particular points about whether she might prefer to draw some non-white characters or not in the future. But she also steps in very forcefully to forbid arguing about the issue while she’s sleeping. There is no indication about any messages having been removed so it looks like everyone obliged.
A funnier thing is a long discussion whether a spade is the same thing as a shovel (apparently not). And some discussion about how the team appears to actually be made up of idiots.
Post by: Suominoita on June 09, 2022, 08:49:59 PM
Post by: JoB on June 10, 2022, 02:17:42 AM
A tidbit from her in the discussion - the station guard has a radio thing, and she confirms not only that it works but also that they are able to manufacture more of them. They are just very expensive.It should be noted, however, that the guard is unlikely to use it often, and doesn't need to communicate beyond the area of Björköfjärden. Given the beyond-current-RL capacity (read: sheer power) of their batteries, that allows for a technologically simple AM radio that can punch a couple sentences through the ether before the Black Voices step up their game and disable further communication. Sophisticated radios for 24/7 long range communication (like on Öresundsbro base) could still be a whole different thing in terms of manufacturing from scratch.
Why the lone patrolman would need such an expensive device (instead of a policeman's whistle or such, after all, Björköfjärden is essentially just the endpoint of the train line, which has a cleansers' tabula rasa around it, hence few grosslings to take offense at noisy humans) is a different question ...
A funnier thing is a long discussion whether a spade is the same thing as a shovel (apparently not). And some discussion about how the team appears to actually be made up of idiots.My takeaway knowledge from that one is that, depending on the language used, there may or may not be different terms, one can be a subcategory of the other either way or strictly separate, and laymen and experts can have wildly different interpretations of the same terms.
It's almost as if agriculture/gardening has to deal with different types of soil in different places. 8)
Post by: tehta on June 10, 2022, 05:36:58 AM
Post by: Róisín on June 10, 2022, 06:07:53 AM
Post by: Jitter on June 10, 2022, 08:39:30 AM
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 10, 2022, 04:05:52 PM
Page 99. The thought of sleeping on 90+ year old sofa's is gross. (I would not even put my coat down. I'd need something like a tarp.) I'd sleep on the floor. They mop that occasionally
Page 100. I wish my hair would look sparkly with a hair fluff. Emil's magic power.. :sparkle: :sparkle:
Page 113. "Not everything is about you" No.....?
Post by: tehta on June 11, 2022, 03:29:23 AM
A lot of Emil and Lalli speculation in the comments! Not shippy, but about their future friendship. (Which has, of course, been promised by Minna.) Also, at one point someone says they might clash because Lalli, who works on sending trolls to their rest, might be sympathetic towards them, while Emil might just want to burn everything in sight. Ha.
In retrospect, I find it weird that Lalli is so disinterested in everything new at this point. In Iceland, he stares out of the coach window quite happily. (And even in Mora, he will start acting curious.) I have also noticed in fanfics that some authors decide that Emil really is messy and have him spill stuff on himself all the time, but I can't remember any instance of that happening in-comic (unless we count the exploding troll).
Tuuri's level of curiousity will never change.
BTW, the Sami comment about them integrating is on page 115.
Post by: JoB on June 11, 2022, 06:03:43 AM
Maybe the point of giving the guard such awesome technology is not to use it, but to impress any Finnish visitors with Swedish awesomeness.Wouldn't that suggest that Mr. Vakt should stop bothering the Västerströms, and be a smidgen more visible as some actual Finns step off the ship later? 8)
I'd sleep on the floor. They mop that occasionallyYou and your weird ancients' customs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthen_floor) ... >:D
In retrospect, I find it weird that Lalli is so disinterested in everything new at this point. In Iceland, he stares out of the coach window quite happily. (And even in Mora, he will start acting curious.)He's shown as being seriously overtired after stepping off the Timbercruiser. Considering that he worked a night shift immediately before leaving Keuruu, has been on ships ever since, displayed signs of sea sickness almost at once (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=81), seems not to have been that fast asleep (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=90), and gets explicitly told to try to sleep some more (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=94) to help his condition upon arrival, my guess would be that he actually hardly slept at all during the entire trip, which would make his zonked-out state at landfall quite believable.
I have also noticed in fanfics that some authors decide that Emil really is messy and have him spill stuff on himself all the time, but I can't remember any instance of that happening in-comic (unless we count the exploding troll).To be frank, that running gag's Emil's own idee fixe (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=113) after Tuuri suggested it (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=106) because it had happened (once) by external causes (http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=104).
Post by: tehta on June 11, 2022, 06:56:24 AM
* When he was covered in soup. He was guiltless there, too.
* When he exploded the Tank Troll. There, he got covered in gunk while planting the explosive, which is his fault in a way, and what I was referring to before.
I guess there are other times when trolls drip on him a bit, but that's not exactly his fault, either. So I find it a bit unfair that some writers run with this and have him be a mess all the time.
Post by: JoB on June 11, 2022, 08:02:47 AM
I guess there are other times when trolls drip on him a bit, but that's not exactly his fault, either. So I find it a bit unfair that some writers run with this and have him be a mess all the time.Well, I can't comment on the "(un)fairness" of fanworks, as I don't usually read any, but let me say that
- deviating somewhat from canon sorta is an accepted purpose for them, and
- Emil did choose a profession where getting messed up "through no fault of oneself" is an obvious occupational hazard (http://sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=259).
Post by: tehta on June 11, 2022, 10:36:03 AM
I should probably add something about the comic, so I'll add that it's very interesting to me to see the commenters wondering what trolls look like and when they'll really get to see one. I can only imagine how impactful the train attack would have felt after that level of anticipation...
Post by: Suominoita on June 14, 2022, 02:37:05 PM
Later: Be Careful What You Wish For dear Tuuri. You will get to see a Troll, and it won't be safe at all. And slapping your cousin is not good manners.
Emil impressed me when he just went and got more of that meat for both him and Lalli like to eat instead of getting upset about Lalli taking the one piece he had... Much better than being overly concerned about his appearance.
Post by: JoB on June 15, 2022, 04:01:48 AM
Lalli refusing to do magic there was good. Somehow, Tuuri and Emil talking about it immediately gave me the feel that doing magic just to show off for a non-believer would be a bad idea. Singing Emil into swamp just because he doesn't believe -- I wouldn't call it making a good impression. Not to mention poor Lalli was sleep-deprived as it was.Not that Lalli would be overly concerned about the impressions he makes for himself. But to add a point, it would have been the first feat of magic he had worked outside the region of Keuruu, wouldn't it? And all the way over in nonbelieving Sweden, no less? If location and local convictions have as much influence on magic as we're led to believe, I can certainly understand that Lalli felt way out of his comfort zone when Tuuri asked him to shake a quick demo out of his sleeve.
Post by: Suominoita on June 15, 2022, 06:47:11 AM
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 15, 2022, 08:12:50 AM
Also, I do not understand something. Minna makes a comment about missing her laundry timeslot. In Finland do you make appointments to access Laundry machines (If you do no have one of your own?)
I like that idea. When I lived in apartments; if you did not watch your laundry like a hawk, it could be this soggy mess thrown on top of the machines or on the folding bench.
I used to get up really early 0400 ish to start the laundry. This way I was pretty done before anyone else in the building woke up.
Scheduling Seems way more civilized. :)
Post by: tehta on June 15, 2022, 07:11:17 PM
I also liked the discussion on weather a few pages previously. I agree with Minna: just below zero is much nicer than just above zero.
Post by: tehta on June 15, 2022, 07:26:08 PM
I also found the answer to where Emil came from, on the train! http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=124#comment-1439370270
(tl;dr, he came from where he was deployed, which was north of Mora.)
Post by: JoB on June 16, 2022, 05:29:33 AM
Something's FUBARed with posting the complete edited post. I'll break part of it into a separate post ...
Also, I do not understand something. Minna makes a comment about missing her laundry timeslot. In Finland do you make appointments to access Laundry machines (If you do no have one of your own?)IIRC Minna was living in Mora at the time, in a (loosely packed) "block" of mostly two-story four-apartment houses that, at the time, had common washers and driers (... or singular?) set up in sort of a shed (https://www.google.de/maps/place/Furuv%C3%A4gen+45B,+792+52+Mora,+Schweden/@61.0151354,14.6033091,251m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4667db502e39a81d:0xa9a02111b480ec17!8m2!3d61.0147146!4d14.602459), with a timetable (one week? several?) on the wall offering a handful slots every day. You would put your name into an empty slot, and thus have exclusive use of the machines in the corresponding timeframe.
Spoiler: Stalkertalk • show
From there, she moved back to Finland, first to her parents' house, then into her first own(ed) one. AFAICT both "standalones", supposedly with their own sets of machinery, so no more laundry time bingo. ;)
Is the heart of Mora a safe area? It doesn't look like it on page 66.Well, not by the standards of Mr. Steingrímur Þórðarson, skald, maker of The Complete Map of the Known World, and possibly an Icelander, obviously. 8) Of whom the Swedes probably had never even heard when they designed their system of grades of safety and perimeter check procedures.
I agree with Minna: just below zero is much nicer than just above zero.[agreed (Celsius) / disagree (Fahrenheit) / agreed FOR SCIENCE! (Kelvin)}
Post by: JoB on June 16, 2022, 06:17:18 AM
Something's FUBARed with posting the complete edited post. I'll break part of it into a separate post ...... namely, the
Spoiler: Stalkertalk • show
Post by: tehta on June 16, 2022, 06:38:17 AM
In general, however, I can't stop thinking about 'the heart of Mora'. Who lives there? What do they do for work? It looks like rather diverse jobs like Siv's and Torb's take place outside (they can't be quarantining when they go to work!), and overall 'outer Mora' seems like a pretty sophisticated place. Maybe that's where Sweden's technological industry is located?
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 16, 2022, 08:45:49 AM
True just above zero and just below zero in Fahrenheit is not a lot different. it is just really cold...
[agreed (Celsius) / disagree (Fahrenheit) / agreed FOR SCIENCE! (Kelvin)}
In Kelvin zero is as low as you go...
Plus I like the idea of allowed times for laundry..way better than the haphazard way when I lived in an apartment
Post by: Jitter on June 18, 2022, 08:55:15 AM
I put in a catch up week in the schedul like Tehta suggested earlier, it’s after next week to coincide with the chapter break.
I hope I’ll have more time from now on. It’s either that or a burnout so here’s hoping! At least now I have 2 full weeks of vacation.
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 18, 2022, 08:58:22 AM
Hello guys, I’m back! Will try to comment a bit soon.
I put in a catch up week in the schedul like Tehta suggested earlier, it’s after next week to coincide with the chapter break.
I hope I’ll have more time from now on. It’s either that or a burnout so here’s hoping! At least now I have 2 full weeks of vacation.
Please take care....No burnout please!!
I hope you have a great vacation..(and going someplace cool!)
Post by: Jitter on June 18, 2022, 01:26:37 PM
Immediately under this speculation on Emil/Lalli starts (Solovei mentioned them “mostly as a joke”… sure thing, pal!) and people stating they don’t mind shipping as long as it doesn’t get everywhere. I foresee some Further Discussion about this later.
:emil: <3 :lalli:
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 30, 2022, 08:14:25 AM
You also get the feeling that Tuuri is not so innocent as she is first portrayed. (She is clever and very feisty!!)
Page 134 (is there a little bit of Loge in his eyes..or a blessing ;) )
This is really where I think Lalli is channeling the felines of the world. He can nap anywhere. (Just like my kitties!!)
Post by: thorny on June 30, 2022, 10:27:35 AM
-- page 133; Eich in comments guessed that "Braidy's a stowaway"
-- 137 has the explanation for why books are valuable: cleansers burn them, nobody's going ahead and rescuing books.
Although Vivi has a long rant in the comments about this and other things that don't work about the premises underlying the story structure.
Emil's family might have had the large house before they became poor; or it might have been relatively cheap for reasons other than its size. But the fancy radio setup does seem to indicate that they're spending money on at least some non-essentials -- or was that paid for by expedition funds, and is it essential for the expedition? They do communicate by radio later on -- and probably couldn't have been picked up without it.
Also, "poor" is a relative term. Presuming they were really rich before, they may think they're poor now when we might think they're just middle class.
-- I also noticed Emil's eyes in that panel on page 134. Makes me wonder whether his disbelief was supposed to be blocking some actual power.
.
Post by: JoB on June 30, 2022, 10:56:44 AM
But the fancy radio setup does seem to indicate that they're spending money on at least some non-essentials -- or was that paid for by expedition funds, and is it essential for the expedition? They do communicate by radio later on -- and probably couldn't have been picked up without it.Well, their intial radio contacts to the expedition were done from Öresundsbro Base, where they did stay for a while after the cat-tank left, so it's not like housing there apparently costs an arm and a leg. But there certainly is a bajillion possibilities why they could eventually need to have a radio of their own to keep in touch with the away team. Other than the plot requiring them to be someplace Onni can find them ...
Emil occasionally visits the Mora
Post by: lwise on June 30, 2022, 01:06:05 PM
With respect to population and occupations, my theory is that "academics" means anyone who doesn't directly raise food, so this would be people such as shopkeepers, weavers, and other town-folk. It doesn't mean college professors or even students at any level. "Military" means anyone paid to serve at least part time, though most of the time they may be working at something else.
With respect to Torborn's typing up books instead of someone typesetting the books, my best guess is that they have a lot more functioning manual typewriters than they do printing presses, and a lot more good typists than good typesetters. So they retype books that are in poor shape, just as Mikkel had Tuuri retype the journal, rather than setting up to print them. This gives them additional copies (which can be stored elsewhere in case of disasters or attacks by anti-science fanatics), and the books can be reprinted properly later.
Post by: tehta on June 30, 2022, 03:50:15 PM
But hey, we skipped over page 127 and Emil's hairstyling, which led to several people in the comments making extremely shippy comments, like "they are now a canon couple to me". (OTOH, I also see a lot of Emil & Tuuri shipping. Like on page 135.)
Regarding Emil's family's wealth, as displayed on pages 130+:
-- Siv says the house is the last nice thing they own, so she knows it's nice.
-- Torb tells the nanny 'we'll sell some things and pay you more', which somewhat contradicts Siv (they do have some other sellable things!) but is in character for both of them. It also clarifies how they've been paying for stuff: by selling off the remnants of their old lavish lifestyle.
-- But, yeah, the radio was probably a necessity. While staying on a base for the duration might not be so expensive, paying someone to watch the twins would be. Also, it leaves them free to give the crew instructions about secret book salvage. At a base, they could be overheard.
Page 133: being in school until 17, like Emil, is unusual! Also someone is sad that Emil is imaginary.
Page 135: commenters guessing that Lalli will one day surprise Emil with magic. Oh yes he will.
Page 136&9: Emil sure is suspicious that Torb is trying to rip him off, isn't he? I wonder if there's a story there. Also, regarding the books: I just had the thought that there should be copies of many possible books present in Iceland. Shouldn't there? Or did Icelanders eat/burn them during the first lean decades?
Page 138 - Sigrun in her first speaking role!
will continue later...
Post by: dmeck7755 on June 30, 2022, 06:01:11 PM
IDK about shipping, but Tuuri is a bright light. I would think she is one of those people who can get along with everyone. With her curious mind, she is earnestly interested in anything outside of her (abet small) circle.
But hey, we skipped over page 127 and Emil's hairstyling, which led to several people in the comments making extremely shippy comments, like "they are now a canon couple to me". (OTOH, I also see a lot of Emil & Tuuri shipping. Like on page 135.)
Regarding Emil's family's wealth, as displayed on pages 130+:This is very true, and i forgot the "book" adventure was clandestine.
-- Siv says the house is the last nice thing they own, so she knows it's nice.
-- Torb tells the nanny 'we'll sell some things and pay you more', which somewhat contradicts Siv (they do have some other sellable things!) but is in character for both of them. It also clarifies how they've been paying for stuff: by selling off the remnants of their old lavish lifestyle.
-- But, yeah, the radio was probably a necessity. While staying on a base for the duration might not be so expensive, paying someone to watch the twins would be. Also, it leaves them free to give the crew instructions about secret book salvage. At a base, they could be overheard.
Page 136&9: Emil sure is suspicious that Torb is trying to rip him off, isn't he? I wonder if there's a story there.Definitely trying to rip off Emil. (Evil Västerströms and all that Muhhaha)
Post by: Suominoita on June 30, 2022, 11:17:47 PM
Page 136&9: Emil sure is suspicious that Torb is trying to rip him off, isn't he? I wonder if there's a story there. Also, regarding the books: I just had the thought that there should be copies of many possible books present in Iceland. Shouldn't there? Or did Icelanders eat/burn them during the first lean decades?
Yes, they likely are ripping off Emil seeing as they're making the deal with Tuuri and not him... Emil's occupation as cleanser apparently voided all the life insurance policies he had, if any and presumably going to the Silent Lands would do so as well so at least that leaves out one way they can use Emil to make cash...
I think the Icelanders did burn books -- at least history books and any that would somehow be seen as against Asatru. That is, basically any sort of reference to other religions like Christianity -- so Reynir definitely knows nothing about it. At least until meeting Pastor A in the dream-world and even that is a bit vague. They don't mind Finnish gods as they aren't interested in spreading their influence. (Estonians, Sami and Karelians maybe.) Their Finnish learning is not good based on Emil's failed interview avoidance.
Post by: Jitter on July 02, 2022, 05:44:02 AM
The decon facility at Mora arrivals is again quite hi-tech-y. Although of course he water jets may be operated by a bunch of humans? At minimum two operators per shower pod, I’d say? Which means the arrival either takes a very long time or is extremely labor-intensive (i.e. expensive). And the, um… horizontal escalator? What’s the name for the human conveyor belt? seems quite techy too.
Also, how do they know Tuuri has not been outside of safe areas? Are they just going to take her word for it, PLUS trust that the Finnish safe areas are actually safe? There didn’t seem to be any sort of vetting in Björköfjärden, so maybe they do trust, but it seems like a bit of a leap of faith? And Lalli of course has been outside of the safe areas, as has likely Emil too, but they are of course immune. Goes to show how extreme the quarantine procedure at the end of Adventure 1 is.
Other points. I was sure I remembered seeing computers in Siv’s workplace, but they aren’t here. Could it be some other part? There’s somewhere when she says her job is completely useless dead end, maybe there? On the other hand I also thought I knew of a public broadcasting radio somewhere outside of Iceland, and Emil describes it here.
And horses. Finland must have horses. Toivosaari would have had a couple or at least one, for plowing the fields. These would have been stabled on the Sheep and Farming Island, but surely Lalli has been there too. Maybe, just maybe, Keuruu doesn’t because all motorized machinery is there, but still, Lalli must know what a horse is.
I did notice there were some inconsistencies in the first read, but like Thorny said, it was just so so good that it didn’t matter. Now it’s a bit harder to ignore. On the other hand I don’t feel like it’s ruining the comic for me, perhaps I just like nitpicking :) (spoiler: yes I do)
Post by: thorny on July 02, 2022, 06:11:13 AM
Post by: Róisín on July 02, 2022, 06:19:49 AM
Post by: Jitter on July 02, 2022, 06:31:28 AM
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 02, 2022, 08:45:11 AM
Also, how do they know Tuuri has not been outside of safe areas? Are they just going to take her word for it, PLUS trust that the Finnish safe areas are actually safe? There didn’t seem to be any sort of vetting in Björköfjärden, so maybe they do trust, but it seems like a bit of a leap of faith? And Lalli of course has been outside of the safe areas, as has likely Emil too, but they are of course immune. Goes to show how extreme the quarantine procedure at the end of Adventure 1 is.
Maybe, because they were going to Iceland, which in the prelude is quite paranoid? Maybe they still are.
Post by: tehta on July 02, 2022, 11:11:46 AM
As for the horses, hmm. I think it's possible that individual islands might not have them? Depending on their past luck? But, yeah, Keuruu... Or maybe Lalli was making a joke? I feel like the orphanage comment he makes to Emil could be one, because he has witnessed the scene where Emil's father was discussed. Or maybe he HAS seen horses, but someone played a joke on him by telling him they were ugly moose?
Regarding b technology, I think it's more fun for me as a writer to assume that they have a fair amount of it and that the population statistics are messed up. Maybe many people evade the census...
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 02, 2022, 02:15:36 PM
Regarding b technology, I think it's more fun for me as a writer to assume that they have a fair amount of it and that the population statistics are messed up. Maybe many people evade the census...
It could be selective technology (medical, certain manufacturing, batteries anyone?? Food processing)
I would think that is the biggest need in a post-apocalyptic world.
Iceland has huge geothermic energy. I can see the entire island being one huge greenhouse. They would even power grow lights. After adventure 1, where the danger of the Ghosts has been dispelled, Denmark will become a breadbasket also.
People would avoid census (especially to avoid taxes.), or they did not bother to count people in the country or borderland
Post by: JoB on July 02, 2022, 03:20:45 PM
And the, um… horizontal escalator? What’s the name for the human conveyor belt?If you want fancy, try "travelator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway)".
What I find shocking is the difference between the no quarantine for outer Mora vs proper quarantine for inner Mora. Which might make sense if all non-immunes lived inside, but we have Siv! Something weird going on.Siv worked in a lab that, for security reasons, is most certainly not on Sollerön. And if that house is their (last) leftover from more fortunate times, moving it over after she quit likely wasn't an option.
Post by: thorny on July 02, 2022, 03:50:30 PM
What I find shocking is the difference between the no quarantine for outer Mora vs proper quarantine for inner Mora. Which might make sense if all non-immunes lived inside, but we have Siv! Something weird going on.
As for the horses, hmm. I think it's possible that individual islands might not have them? Depending on their past luck? But, yeah, Keuruu... Or maybe Lalli was making a joke? I feel like the orphanage comment he makes to Emil could be one, because he has witnessed the scene where Emil's father was discussed. Or maybe he HAS seen horses, but someone played a joke on him by telling him they were ugly moose?
Regarding b technology, I think it's more fun for me as a writer to assume that they have a fair amount of it and that the population statistics are messed up. Maybe many people evade the census...
I think it's more likely just Minna not thinking it through. She thought it was funny to have Lalli think the horses were ugly moose; so she didn't bother thinking through how likely he was to have seen horses or at least pictures of horses (or donkeys, which look enough like horses that he'd probably have thought they were oversize or possibly ugly donkeys, not moose.) She wanted high tech for some bits of the story (consider the magical runs-on-anything cat tank) and not for others; I doubt that she worked out which areas they had high tech in and which they didn't, either by location or by type of use. And I agree that the quarantine setup and lack of it makes no sense; but I think she just didn't want to stick quarantine into that part of the story.
She's really good at doing the stuff she cares about. (Some of the time, anyway.) And the stuff she doesn't care about -- she doesn't care about.
Post by: tehta on July 02, 2022, 04:04:30 PM
We already know some of the info pages were written by... biased... individuals.
Post by: thorny on July 02, 2022, 11:18:35 PM
And also definitely that it's fun patching the holes; and seeing how other people try to do so.
Post by: JoB on July 03, 2022, 03:27:51 AM
And I agree that the quarantine setup and lack of it makes no sense; but I think she just didn't want to stick quarantine into that part of the story.Nor would the quartet, who was eager to get the expedition out the door. If (Outer) Mora had been anything but a walk-in walk-out place, it wouldn't have appeared in the comic until the Västerströms returned to "HQ" from Öresundsbro Base, with Taru and Trond staying under Admiral Shouty's nose until the Västerströms got out of quarantine and had picked up the ball, and only then following them to Mora. Which, in turn, would have delayed Onni joining the HQ by the 4+ weeks of the two quarantine phases, yadda yadda.
Post by: Jitter on July 03, 2022, 08:39:06 AM
We have discussed this same about the Saimaa islands too, it makes sense for the returning scouts to quarantine but for people traveling between settlements there must be some other system (travel permits for immunes only?) or trade and therefor transportation between them would be impossible.
Post by: Jitter on July 03, 2022, 08:54:06 AM
Post by: thorny on July 03, 2022, 11:36:33 AM
The discussion includes the general and false assumption that everyone, adults included, in the year 90 must be many generations from the year-zero population -- one person's even saying 8 generations, though somebody calls them on that one; but someone assuming 4 to 6 seems to be thought reasonable. (thorny, straight Ashkenazi from grandparents born in the late 1800's, and old but not ancient herself in 2022.)
Post by: JoB on July 03, 2022, 12:29:08 PM
(thorny, straight Ashkenazi from grandparents born in the late 1800's, and old but not ancient herself in 2022.)(Your grandparents being born 1890-ish and you in 1950 would still be a perfect match for the usual ~30y range of familial generations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#Familial_generation), and of course be entirely unrelated to social generations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#/media/File:Generation_timeline.svg) of about 20y. Of course, translating 90y to 6 or more (S)Gs - assuming that the Rash was an event sufficiently cataclysmical to "force" a turn of SGs - is still right out.)
Post by: lwise on July 03, 2022, 01:03:11 PM
Which makes me think, how old were Michael and Signe? I'm not good at guessing ages, especially not of cartoon characters. Given the responsibilities that Michael appears to have had (but not performed), I think he has to be mature: thirties, even forties. But Signe might be younger, maybe mid-twenties. Mikkel was born about Y56, so if she was 25 when the Rash came, she was 81 when he was born. Many people of 81 are vigorous and live into their 90's. If Signe was healthy all the way to 90, Mikkel could have talked to her when he was a boy. Maybe that's why he wanted to be an astronaut: Signe told him about moonshots and Mars rovers.
Post by: tehta on July 03, 2022, 01:52:46 PM
Regarding the generations, if we follow the parts of the family tree that do sort of make sense, we have someone like Ensi, born around the Rash, as a reasonable grandmother figure. If Ensi had two black parents and a very black appearance, but then had kids with a pale Scandinavian, I would not be shocked if her grand-kids still looked recognizably black. Or if they didn't, actually. But the option is definitely there.
Post by: Jitter on July 03, 2022, 02:21:26 PM
Which makes me wonder, in works set very far into the future, I mean year 3000+ our reckoning, would it be possible to have all white (or all anything) humans, if the world is supposed to be either an utopia with no racism, or a dystopia with limited pool of survivors so that couples would unlikely be constantly formed between people of similar appearances. Or, an utopia with few survivors, or… never mind.
Another thing, someone had posted street view of the church towers seen on p 127, and here is the street Tuuri rushes off into: https://www.google.no/maps/@61.007165,14.543449,3a,75y,299.62h,93.95t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1swbVxayFEBZLaDHzv1JJ7_A!2e0
Post by: tehta on July 03, 2022, 02:42:44 PM
A thought: Emil didn't pay for the explosives in his bag, did he? (He surely couldn't.) No, I guess he took them from his job. No wonder he didn't have permits.
Post by: Jitter on July 03, 2022, 05:36:21 PM
I’m not going to get through the comments even with the catch up week… next week, new chapter, new thread, the Dalahästen!
Post by: NightMareMage on July 06, 2022, 01:08:54 AM
90 years later is a good time to start the story. Almost everyone alive in year 0 would be dead but in terms of human history, it is not the longest time frame but still leaving room for plenty of things to have happened, like outbreaks and their relative ends. (And it’s a round number but not as distractingly round as 100/hj.)
I am assuming that Taru and Trond “trimming some fat” and taking advantage of people is not something new to them. I read somewhere that Minna said that everyone who agreed to go knew the danger but it can be hard to read it that way, and even then, Siv, Torbjörn, Taru and Trond don’t come out of this looking good.
Are the character’s heights off on page 65 or is it just perspective?
And what do we think about the fruit juice scene? I don't really have a problem with fruit juice being expensive -- fresh juice is expensive even now! But it really should be alcohol. So my headcanon is that 'juice' is Y90 slang for booze.It could just be that alcohol is more expensive. Best I could find, IRL Iceland has expensive alcohol. I do like the headcanon about juice being slang for booze.
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 06, 2022, 08:28:50 AM
I do like the headcanon about juice being slang for booze.
As long as people have been around...they have fermented/distilled stuff.
That and another profession...
Post by: lwise on July 06, 2022, 11:54:36 AM
I am assuming that Taru and Trond “trimming some fat” and taking advantage of people is not something new to them. I read somewhere that Minna said that everyone who agreed to go knew the danger but it can be hard to read it that way, and even then, Siv, Torbjörn, Taru and Trond don’t come out of this looking good.
On the other hand ... the team kicked around in Silent Denmark for weeks (going by the growth of the kitten) with only one, relatively unserious injury. The danger really wasn't that great until they ran into the danger of the ghosts, which was totally unanticipated by anybody including the organizers. If the bridge had not collapsed, this would indeed have been the vacation that Sigrun anticipated.
Post by: NightMareMage on July 06, 2022, 12:20:44 PM
On the other hand ... the team kicked around in Silent Denmark for weeks (going by the growth of the kitten) with only one, relatively unserious injury. The danger really wasn't that great until they ran into the danger of the ghosts, which was totally unanticipated by anybody including the organizers. If the bridge had not collapsed, this would indeed have been the vacation that Sigrun anticipated.That is a good point. It does not erase them advantage of people but this is something to keep in mind.
Post by: tehta on July 06, 2022, 01:19:19 PM
On the other hand ... the team kicked around in Silent Denmark for weeks (going by the growth of the kitten) with only one, relatively unserious injury. The danger really wasn't that great until they ran into the danger of the ghosts, which was totally unanticipated by anybody including the organizers. If the bridge had not collapsed, this would indeed have been the vacation that Sigrun anticipated.
I think the real potential for danger came not from the regular, known trolls/giants/etc, but the unknown. Which they did run into, with the ghosts. In Finland they might have run into the Kade; elsewhere there may be other Kade -like beings. Similarly, there could be other ghost-hordes, formed in other ways. There could be other intelligent monsters, or giants the size of cities. Nobody knows.
I think that's why one of the reasons the Nordic Council has been against exploratory missions: the high variance of the risk. I'm order to have a chance, you'd want to send in trained professionals of at least Sigrun and Lalli's experience, but possibly better-adjusted. Do you want to risk losing such people?
There are other reasons, of course, such as the fact that most of the national representatives on the council are likely 'meh' at best regarding exploration.
Post by: NightMareMage on July 11, 2022, 03:58:10 PM
There are some art style changes as the story goes. This makes some characters look off on reread. Like Emil and Onni.
So many details on page 71, panel 1! Lalli stepping out of his shoes, the blankets under the bed, how sparse and impersonal his room is.
Part of Lalli’s introduction is him hissing at a cat!
Onni’s haircut, per ear injury.
Onni’s hostility makes all the more sense after learning the Hotakainen family’s backstory…
The final panel on page 72, I think Tuuri’s line is meant to show/reassure the reader that she (and the others, stans Lalli) have not been misled by agreeing to join but it could also be read as Tuuri only believing that she is not being taken advantage of.
I don’t believe this level of confusion or memory issues that Lalli shows appears later. Maybe he was just not paying attention at the time?
As someone who has packed for things often, I buy that Tuuri forgot. I may forget a thing or two but people who have not traveled a lot seem to forget so much.
Given that Tuuri was dead set on going, did Lalli just get caught up in the shuffle or did Onni want Lalli to at least be with her?
Everything with Tuuri is just sad when you know what happens. Her setting out might be the worst. I wonder if things would have been different if Onni was there…
Post by: Suominoita on July 12, 2022, 11:14:12 AM
Pages 69-78
Given that Tuuri was dead set on going, did Lalli just get caught up in the shuffle or did Onni want Lalli to at least be with her?
The boat was leaving and Tuuri pushed Lalli in before Onni managed to react. Lalli's just uncertainly saying bye to Onni. Once they're on the boat Tuuri tries once more to convince Onni to come but he -- can't. He's not trying to get either one back on shore though, I suppose he gave up on that approach already. Maybe he wonders if calling his sister an idiot for going would have made a difference. And Lalli was not really paying much attention -- sleep deprivation and not really believing she would do something Onni didn't approve of -- that she was just telling her "weird jokes" he never understood. My guess is that Onni coined that term, trying to explain to Lalli why something Tuuri said wasn't all that important.
Post by: thorny on July 12, 2022, 02:32:05 PM
Post by: NightMareMage on July 12, 2022, 03:57:11 PM
Is it ever made clear what they are eating? Any educated guesses?
Lalli does not really know or understand why he is here and would like to leave but is told he can't. How close is this to kidnapping?
Page 81, panel 2, Tuuri mentions a, “mage friend,” of Onni’s. Friend may be being used loosely here. If not, while I do find it hard to imagine him really having friends, it would not be impossible.
I am guessing that he has not experienced a lot of nausea before. Poor thing, no wonder he thinks he may be dying.
I'm sure you could train a dog to tell people to be quiet (though how would one want the dog to communicate this IHNI) but could you train a cat? I don’t know if training was the intended implication of the PSSSHH!!!-ing cat but it made me think of it.
Post by: Jitter on July 12, 2022, 05:40:53 PM
There has been discussion about trainability of cats in many occasions, including around the entrée of the Shushing Cat. In that Minna mentioned that she likes portraying animals as a bit more intelligent and humanlke than they actually are in reality, but it’s not really intended to imply that the cats were augmented or anything. There are also commenters saying they have or know cats that have been trained several tricks. So, it’s possible albeit difficult. And 90 years is many generations of cats, some selective breeding for trainability may have happened in that time.
Post by: NightMareMage on July 12, 2022, 11:52:12 PM
I tried to cut my comment for brevity, so I would not have to go into my finer ideas, but I ended up saying something completely different.
Post by: JoB on July 13, 2022, 03:03:48 AM
Is it ever made clear what they are eating? Any educated guesses?The way Taru comments on it, I'm not sure that even they would want to make a guess. :P
Lalli does not really know or understand why he is here and would like to leave but is told he can't. How close is this to kidnapping?This exact moment, probably not very, because "you can't leave / go home" now is a statement of fact. If anything actionable as kidnapping happened, it would have been back at the Keuruu dock when Lalli was lured into this situation - which means that the blame would be on Tuuri, not Taru, who is the one telling him he can't go (anymore).
I'm sure you could train a dog to tell people to be quiet (though how would one want the dog to communicate this IHNI) but could you train a cat? I don’t know if training was the intended implication of the PSSSHH!!!-ing cat but it made me think of it.Is it really a trick they've been trained to do, or "merely" proper understanding of the situation ("stay quiet(er than that) or we may all die!")? Mommy cat at The Fictional School did the latter - granted, with a much more visible threat - and is guaranteed to never have had any training by humans.
Situational awareness wouldn't explain how Shusher Cat knows that shushing humans would have the desired effect, but then again, teaching the cats how to "communicate properly with humans" is an explicit part of their training.
Post by: Suominoita on July 13, 2022, 09:57:39 AM
There has been discussion about trainability of cats in many occasions, including around the entrée of the Shushing Cat. In that Minna mentioned that she likes portraying animals as a bit more intelligent and humanlke than they actually are in reality, but it’s not really intended to imply that the cats were augmented or anything. There are also commenters saying they have or know cats that have been trained several tricks. So, it’s possible albeit difficult. And 90 years is many generations of cats, some selective breeding for trainability may have happened in that time.
That's how A-grade cats are made, right? They're bred for it and trained since they were very young. Also why the training of Kitty only got her to B-grade, not being bred for it and there was the need for treats. I figure the Shushing Cat is trained (somehow I don't see Finns bothering with Icelandic training for their cats but they have been trained). For all we know, boat- cat is a specific job, among the military ones Lalli hisses with in the beginning. Mind, I think Lalli totally was speaking feline to Emil's cousins - they're more likely to get that than Finnish anyway what with being too young to have even been to school. They do have a cat in the household though...
Post by: tehta on July 13, 2022, 10:24:31 AM
My grandpa was very patient with animals and would teach some of the neighbourhood cats (they lived in a suburban/semi-farm neighbourhood, lots of communal free-range cats) to do things like shake paws or sit. Not on vocal command, on gesture; he would hold out a hand to shake*, or you hold his palm in a certain way to ask them to sit. But he said only some cats were interested, and they generally wouldn't do for with other people, only him.
Maybe shushing cats are just cats that hate noise? I think it would be easier to teach a cat a gesture that would benefit it in some way.
* For some reason I am now thinking of Lalli...
Post by: JoB on July 13, 2022, 11:26:57 AM
I believe that Minna explained what they were eating in some livestream, and it was something like 'potatoes in disgusting sauce'. Hey, I should make that sometime!Would that be the kind of dish that requires some Electric Daisy (https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20220707-brazils-answer-to-the-sichuan-pepper) just so that you can get it down in the first place? :mikkel: >:D
Post by: NightMareMage on July 13, 2022, 02:05:27 PM
The way Taru comments on it, I'm not sure that even they would want to make a guess. :PTuuri accidentally kidnapped her cousin.
This exact moment, probably not very, because "you can't leave / go home" now is a statement of fact. If anything actionable as kidnapping happened, it would have been back at the Keuruu dock when Lalli was lured into this situation - which means that the blame would be on Tuuri, not Taru, who is the one telling him he can't go (anymore).
My grandpa was very patient with animals and would teach some of the neighbourhood cats (they lived in a suburban/semi-farm neighbourhood, lots of communal free-range cats) to do things like shake paws or sit. Not on vocal command, on gesture; he would hold out a hand to shake*, or you hold his palm in a certain way to ask them to sit. But he said only some cats were interested, and they generally wouldn't do for with other people, only him.As for IRL cats, I once heard that not only are cats hard to train when compared to dogs but unlike dogs, you can only get them to do things that they might do anyway. Cats may let people touch their paws, so shacking is not far off. Cats will climb, so you can get them to climb things on command, etcetera.
Maybe shushing cats are just cats that hate noise? I think it would be easier to teach a cat a gesture that would benefit it in some way.
Obviously, cats in SSSS are different then real life but if what I learned about training cats is true, that would explain a lot of their use against trolls!
Post by: Jitter on July 14, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 14, 2022, 10:35:11 AM
Cats can learn when it suits them. After all, they have developed a way to speak human to ask for things. Humans are useless in speaking cat (by scents and body language)! Adult cats meow only to humans. Meowing is natural communication only for young kittens to their mom.Oh yeah. They are also very good at training their humans
We had a friend who let their cats out. One was a very proficient hunter. She would sit by the door an yell "Me Out" When she wanted out. It was truly me out and not anything close.
She also would also demand treats by one very loud meow. You will see her sitting looking up at you licking her lips . You would ask her do you want a treat? She would wiggle her butt and lick again. If you did not move fast enough, she'd give your the paw.
Post by: tehta on July 14, 2022, 02:19:23 PM
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 14, 2022, 03:04:49 PM
My childhood cat could unlock the low-quality doors in our apartment if the keys were left in by standing up (huge cat) and fiddling with the key, and also unlock the bathroom door by putting its weight on the little handle. We certainly did not teach him these things.
I never go to the bathroom alone...sigh. Only when we have company, because they hide...
Post by: Róisín on July 14, 2022, 10:34:12 PM
Post by: NightMareMage on July 14, 2022, 11:53:05 PM
I said before that I have seen people who don’t travel often forget a lot of things. On page 95, we learn the Tuuri was excited and just grabbed stuff. That seems to be a very Tuuri reason for this but come to think of it she may just flat out not know what one should pack.
Page 99, ah yes, Emil’s family’s disregard for his lack of education is not adorable but what is cute is Siv whispering how they broke a rule.
I am getting through them only slowly due to RL, but it's been fun. Many people were quite impressed by him as a character (both his looks, and his comedy potential); quite a few drew attention to his likely future problems in communication with Lalli. Personally, I found it quite interesting to see how he interacts with his "family": he shouts at them, and they belittle him (even beyond correcting his ridiculous claims -- "wrong as usual"?) And yet, there are hugs. And YET, he is being sent to his likely death.Dysfunctional family dynamics exist on a spectrum. Though how exactly dysfunctional changes depending on what Emil’s Aunt and Uncle thought his chances of surviving were.
Another small point: someone hypothesizing that the Rash was caused by a fungus, because of the sunlight thing. Interesting!Come to think of it, I don't think I have seen any hypothesizing about the Rash's origins. Beyond the idea that it may be supernatural, or partly so.
Side-question: do we think Emil theoretically had a scholar specialization? (It would be tempting to say something fire-related, but I don't think that was the case. But hmm, I actually do have an idea for what it was SUPPOSED to be...)That would make since. What was your idea?
Post by: Jitter on July 15, 2022, 05:55:39 AM
Post by: thorny on July 15, 2022, 09:20:09 AM
Do we know whether they talked him into it, or whether, like Sigrun, he enthusiastically volunteered?
I suspect that Emil, as he's presented when we first meet him, was unrealistically confident that he could handle anything that came at him.
-- whether they intended to rip him off about the books is another question. However, all the team members seem to have wound up with plenty of money after the books were sold.
I do think it's clear that they were far more willing to risk other people's lives than their own. However, the entire books scheme rested on at least some of the team members getting back alive; otherwise, how would they get the books?
Post by: tehta on July 15, 2022, 01:43:40 PM
As for Emil himself, I think that he was aware of SOME danger, and would, as a member of the military, be more used to danger than e.g. me, but I agree that he was also over-confident. (As was Tuuri, of course... )
Post by: NightMareMage on July 17, 2022, 02:26:53 PM
104-115
After having someone’s meal spilled on him, Emil dreams of food. Probably better food than he has had in some time.
Tuuri says that almost no one in Finland speaks Swedish, if that’s true, don’t they run into a convenient amount of people who speak at least one Scandinavian language A2?
Is Tuuri actually a messy eater or just lying to make Emil feel better? I think she is lying.
Evidently, Siv is very bad at helping people with their emotional needs. She is trying though.
Do you think Torbjörn got an explanation for why Taru wanted to see his feet?
On the last panel on page 106, Torbjörn says, “we have some language barriers here,” while only himself with Emil and Lalli are in frame. Then on page 111, Tuuri and Taru say that Lalli will be working with Emil and Taru says she is sure they will get along.
Do we ever find out what Lalli’s definition of a weird person is?
Not to be grim but does what Tuuri says while boarding the train feel like foreshadowing of her fate?
Tuuri hits Lalli for staring at Emil. I really want to write this off as early characterization, and thus something that can be maybe kinda ignored, but I can’t get over the multitude of implications one can take from this moment.
If I recall correctly, writing out non-English languages gets rarer as the comic goes on.
I’m surprised that shipping Tuuri and Emil does not have a small following. I think they are one of the least common ships between any of the main characters.
Best I can tell, Emil’s mother died when he was young, and he rarely sees his father. The one caretaker we see of his is affectionate and very tolerant of him. So where did he get these insecurities? Maybe he was told the greatness of the Västerström name and his brain filled in the blanks.
Post by: tehta on July 17, 2022, 04:14:18 PM
Emil/Tuuri is popular in the comments for quite a bit, competing with Emil/Lalli! But then Tuuri and Emil stop interacting, she goes all google at Sigrun, and eventually gets a lot more time with Reynir than anyone else.
As for Emil's insecurities, well, I think that being rejected or even just ignored by one's parent(s) could give a person a complex, even if one were provided with nannies and tutors who were paid to be supportive. When we meet him, it seems that the only people who want him around are his baby cousins: Siv and Torb are a bit dismissive, and his dad never even checks in. Minna says he wasn't popular in school or at the Cleansers' either.
Post by: lwise on July 17, 2022, 04:38:02 PM
Yes, Tuuri hitting Lalli, and then a little later telling a guard to manhandle him, is disturbing to me as well.
She also kicked him with both feet to get his attention on page 90.
Post by: Suominoita on July 18, 2022, 10:19:33 AM
Adult cats meow only to humans. Meowing is natural communication only for young kittens to their mom.
Interesting. Same could be said about a dog's bark. There's also the noticeable matter about size: The smaller the dog the more they bark. The big ones don't have to bother, smaller dogs bark just so people don't step on them.
Post by: NightMareMage on July 20, 2022, 10:20:49 PM
In general, however, I can't stop thinking about 'the heart of Mora'. Who lives there? What do they do for work? It looks like rather diverse jobs like Siv's and Torb's take place outside (they can't be quarantining when they go to work!), and overall 'outer Mora' seems like a pretty sophisticated place. Maybe that's where Sweden's technological industry is located?Governmental work and/or super rich?
Yes, they likely are ripping off Emil seeing as they're making the deal with Tuuri and not him... Emil's occupation as cleanser apparently voided all the life insurance policies he had, if any and presumably going to the Silent Lands would do so as well so at least that leaves out one way they can use Emil to make cash...Alternatively, they could just not respect him or his intelligence.
116 - 126
Ah, yes Emil and his bag full of explosives. Was he allowed to take it from the Cleansers? Did he effectively steal them, even by accident? Was that an oversight by the Cleansers? They don’t seem to be the tightness run ship.
On page 124, “That’s my Number! What are they going to do to me?” I do want to make a joke but feel really bad for him. He is just being dragged along and is very confused.
Pages 125-126, we were told a bit about the differences between Finland and Sweden, the lack of electricity in Finland, but Lalli’s interaction with the moving walkway is the first time we are shown. Unless I already forgot something from the past pages.
Honestly, Lalli not knowing what a horse is may make sense. Mammals (stans cats) can be infected so domestic animals could be less common. On his A1 character profile, it says he is not well educated, Tuuri may just know what a horse is from books. And if you know what a moose is but not a horse, calling a horse a moose is not the most out there thing to do.
127 - 141
I think page 127 is the first time I could say the panel layout was bad. I think there were 1 or 2 times thus far that I thought the layout was great that I did not mention. Most of the pages are good but this one is confusing. I think she did something similar in a Redtail’s Dream but with arrows and a recall in the “bunny comic” doing something similar but the layout worked really well. [Note: Yes, the bunny comic is bad but I am talking about panel layout.]
Aha! On page 128, Tuuri implies that horses are uncommon in Finland (or at least the places she has been before).
Our first peek at the Hotakainen’s backstory. Fittingly ominous and does not tell too much at once.
I talked about the fat jokes before, so I will not comment on it here. But if memory serves, it’s that last one in A1. I have my doubts on that but we will see.
When Tuuri tells the kids that one of them is adopted, are the boys looking at Anna or is Håkan and her looking at Sune? (This is rhetorical, I do not think there is a true answer.)
I find the comment from Tuuri on not seeing kids in a long time interesting. I don't think the Västerström children are much younger than she was when she became an apprentice in the military and Lalli is two years younger then she is.
I wonder if Emil’s mother would have made sure he got a proper education. Or a least a better one.
Did they need Siv to leave her job? It was Torbjörn's idea to do all this and so him quitting makes sense. Either Torbjörn and Siv could look after their kids while the other does the work and if they don’t want to take care of their own children, Siv could still be making some money at her job.
Post by: Suominoita on July 21, 2022, 02:05:26 AM
Governmental work and/or super rich?
Alternatively, they could just not respect him or his intelligence.
116 - 126
A
Did they need Siv to leave her job? It was Torbjörn's idea to do all this and so him quitting makes sense. Either Torbjörn and Siv could look after their kids while the other does the work and if they don’t want to take care of their own children, Siv could still be making some money at her job.
Well, Siv is working on finding a cure for the Disease and Torbjörn didn't much like his job anyway. So I figure he should be the one who quits and looks after the kids. It will at least save whatever they'd need to pay for a sitter to look after the "changelings". It may actually be more beneficial than him working if they pay the sitter more than he earns. Maybe start a hair salon? The kids would love it.
Post by: wavewright62 on July 21, 2022, 04:00:11 PM
Post by: tehta on July 21, 2022, 04:42:23 PM
I am also guessing that organizing the expedition took a lot of time and effort, so Torb couldn't do that AND childcare all alone.
And regarding Keuruu and children: I think Minna has also said that there weren't any on the base. So maybe Tuuri and Lalli were allowed to start work extra early, to be closer to their caregiver. Or maybe kids, even apprenticed kids, live and train outside the military base, and Tuuri hasn't felt like visiting that part of town (bad memories?)
Post by: Suominoita on July 22, 2022, 11:08:05 AM
And regarding Keuruu and children: I think Minna has also said that there weren't any on the base. So maybe Tuuri and Lalli were allowed to start work extra early, to be closer to their caregiver. Or maybe kids, even apprenticed kids, live and train outside the military base, and Tuuri hasn't felt like visiting that part of town (bad memories?)
Well, they were starting early, at least Lalli was. Presumably it was partly because Ensi had began already. Tuuri had her studies - maybe Keuruu had Swedish studies while their island school in Saimaa didn't. So anyway, it might not have been all that big of a deal - they were listed as apprentices to a skald and a mage/scout. A big part of Lalli's education was about living off the Forest cue his dismissal of supplies. I know some berries and mushrooms; Lalli likely knows enough to live off the forest all summer.
Post by: Róisín on July 23, 2022, 01:33:56 AM
Whereas here in Australia the good foraging season is Autumn through Winter, with fungi coming up and all the greenery sprouting, while there are still roots such as the native yam-daisy or the invasive Disa bracteata if you know where to dig. And of course the soursops, Oxalis pes-caprae, an invasive weed with edible flowers, leaves and storage roots (the long white ones as distinct from the round brown roots which are only good for leaving exposed for the parrots to eat - they can digest those roots, which humans can’t.
Post by: tehta on July 23, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
On the other hand, Lalli's actions with that squirrel suggest that he has no idea what he is doing as a hunter, which just seems weird to me. I interpret it as him taking someone's suggestion literally. Like, "Sigrun says it'd be great if we could get a squirrel in that stew!" which would sound crazy to him, but, hey, half of what is asked of him makes no sense, so... maybe it's a foreign recipe.
(I know, I know, Minna added it for humour value.... I am overthinking...)
Post by: thorny on July 23, 2022, 06:07:49 PM
On the other hand, Lalli's actions with that squirrel suggest that he has no idea what he is doing as a hunter, which just seems weird to me.
It came across to me more that he had no idea what to do as a cook.
I don't think we could really tell from the artwork whether the squirrel had been dressed out; only that it hadn't yet been skinned.
(Do we know whether Minna has any idea what to do as a hunter?)
Post by: tehta on July 23, 2022, 06:36:20 PM
Post by: Róisín on July 23, 2022, 10:48:17 PM
Post by: tehta on July 24, 2022, 05:28:31 AM
I think I have posted before that I think the orphanage comment he made to Emil was a joke? Since he had heard the discussion of Emil's dad earlier.
Post by: lwise on July 24, 2022, 01:05:50 PM
On the other hand, Lalli's actions with that squirrel suggest that he has no idea what he is doing as a hunter, which just seems weird to me. I interpret it as him taking someone's suggestion literally. Like, "Sigrun says it'd be great if we could get a squirrel in that stew!" which would sound crazy to him, but, hey, half of what is asked of him makes no sense, so... maybe it's a foreign recipe.
(I know, I know, Minna added it for humour value.... I am overthinking...)
Lalli was tired. Tired of this mission, tired of this country, tired of these people. He was especially tired of the Dane's excuse for cooking.
His Vision was working well today, and he could see the small normal animals around him in this young forest. That squirrel there ...
Lalli approached as Grandma Ensi had taught him. I am not here. The wind in the branches, a cloud across the Sun. I am not here. The squirrel was still grooming himself when Lalli struck.
“I've got a squirrel for supper.”
Tuuri didn't look up from her notes. “Toss it in the stew pot then.”
He glared at her bowed head for a moment before stalking to the stew pot and tossing the squirrel in without bothering to skin it. Mikkel fished it out as Lalli stalked away.
Post by: tehta on July 24, 2022, 03:25:46 PM
And then, I really like the idea of expressing fan theories or interpretations as stories rather than commentary. Maybe we should do it more often...
Post by: dmeck7755 on July 25, 2022, 08:04:51 AM
Lalli was tired. Tired of this mission, tired of this country, tired of these people. He was especially tired of the Dane's excuse for cooking.
His Vision was working well today, and he could see the small normal animals around him in this young forest. That squirrel there ...
Lalli approached as Grandma Ensi had taught him. I am not here. The wind in the branches, a cloud across the Sun. I am not here. The squirrel was still grooming himself when Lalli struck.
“I've got a squirrel for supper.”
Tuuri didn't look up from her notes. “Toss it in the stew pot then.”
He glared at her bowed head for a moment before stalking to the stew pot and tossing the squirrel in without bothering to skin it. Mikkel fished it out as Lalli stalked away.
LOL Lalli being so literal, I can see him doing what Tuuri said. Not bothering to peel/clean it at least
Post by: Suominoita on July 27, 2022, 09:50:38 AM
LOL Lalli being so literal, I can see him doing what Tuuri said. Not bothering to peel/clean it at least
Yes, that's what I think happened too, Tuuri not telling him to clean/skin it, just presuming Lalli would do it automatically. Pretty sure he does know how to skin an animal. Not that eating squirrel would be common, but there was a time, long ago, that squirrel skins were used as money.
Post by: lwise on July 27, 2022, 10:59:48 AM
Post by: tehta on July 27, 2022, 12:26:26 PM