Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[Grade E cat]

As for how people end up in abusive relationships in the first place, a mix of stuff I've read and personal experience tell me the following: at the beginning, the moments of abuse are mild and far between enough that they can easily be excused away as the other person having a bad day or being in an exceptionally bad mood. And from there, things gradually escalate to behaviors that would be unacceptable if they had them towards people they have just met. And you kind of just build up a tolerance for it.

Because of this, I think it could possibly be a little rushed to label Emil and Lalli's relationship as going in an abusive direction as things are right now. I also feel several issues got mixed up here, so here's my answer to each of them:
1) Did Lalli cross a line in trying to save Emil's life? My personal opinion may be biased by my own built-up tolerance, but consensus seems to be that he did, so I'm not going to argue with that.
2) Could this have some kind of negative effect on Emil's side of the relationship on the longer run, including him fearing Lalli could pull that trick on him again? Yes, and it would be a legitimate reaction.
3) Would Lalli actually pull that trick again, outside of circumstances where not doing it could spell death for himself and the other person? I don't think so. He may very well be aware that he crossed a line, and it may be the reason that trick was used as last resort. An abuser is someone who does that kind of thing on a regular basis and sees nothing wrong with doing it. If that trick stays a one-time, last-resort thing, Lalli shouldn't be treated as the kind of person who would pull that off on a regular basis by us readers. From Emil's point of view however, once may indeed be once too much. I'll leave things at that.

[Sc0ut]

Grade E cat, I'm not sure if you were replying to me, but just for the record, I'm not suggesting Emil and Lalli's relationship is going in an abusive direction or anything of the sort. I was simply offering a real life counter-example to JoB's prediction (I just noticed I was ninja'd by thorny, for some reason I missed their comment earlier). As far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to just let the story unfold and not judge Lalli at this point. As I said, I'm aware this looks bad but there are many possible explanations, there is much information we don't have yet, and the next page might change everything. I'm happy to wait.

[Grade E cat]

I think it was a mix of replying to a misunderstood version of your post, replying to one or two things I've seen on the page discussions, and a few of my own thoughts. People also frequently mention people who stay in abusive relationships for a long time as a thing that happens without actually understanding the reason, so I tend to feel the instinctive need to throw in an insider's view or explanation when the subject comes up. And it looks like I was being oblviously redundant with thorny myself.

[JoB]

But don't people ever forgive others who did horrible things to them while genuinely trying to help?

That was my point, though: Once That Other Guy™ has become a trigger for something as low-level as your fight-or-flight reactions, "forgiveness" is something that newfangled neocortex may waste its time with (if I may channel Mr. Reptilian Brain here).

But that doesn't matter, since looking at the evidence we have so far, I'm pretty convinced Minna is not interested in exploring realistic psychology in this story so they will very likely find a way to work this out.

(I agree ...

I was simply offering a real life counter-example to JoB's prediction

... which is why this was actually not a prediction for the story.)

Since we're talking realistic personalities, I'll remind you that there are people who stay for decades in abusive relationships.

To second Grade E cat, abusive relationships start as not-yet-abusive ones the abused one feels more or less obliged to continue. Once Emil has gotten to the quarantine ship (which at least he is assuming he actually will), there's nothing to force him to stay with Lalli if he doesn't feel like it; no more mission to complete, no established friendship with him (memento soupface and squashflower), no overruling authority of Lalli (as in the parent-child example).

1) Did Lalli cross a line in trying to save Emil's life?

*A* line, most definitely. Our RL authorities (if only two guys from the future with a background of several other nations would fall into their jurisdiction, and Minnas depiction of the events were acceptable as factual proof of what happened between them ) would call it assault and battery plus coercion, and then look into the mitigating circumstances.

(I just noticed I was ninja'd by thorny, for some reason I missed their comment earlier)

(You posted <8m later, so you might've been already editing your reply when thorny posted, and - assuming that your account has the default setting of messages per page - your post went to the next page of the topic. I've picked up the habit, in such a situation, to explicitly flip back to the previous page to check whether other new posts have fallen into that gap.)
(But also, I've just pressed "Preview" to check this post, and between the preview and the edit pane, I get a red bar saying "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." because Grade E cat just posted again, so there also are countermeasures built into the forum software to combat that.)

[Sc0ut]

(You posted <8m later, so you might've been already editing your reply when thorny posted, and - assuming that your account has the default setting of messages per page - your post went to the next page of the topic. I've picked up the habit, in such a situation, to explicitly flip back to the previous page to check whether other new posts have fallen into that gap.)
(But also, I've just pressed "Preview" to check this post, and between the preview and the edit pane, I get a red bar saying "Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post." because Grade E cat just posted again, so there also are countermeasures built into the forum software to combat that.)

Yeah, that's what confuses me - I didn't get the normal warning box for new replies. Some glitch or another I guess. Unless thorny' comment posted exactly one millisecond before I clicked "reply" and it just didn't register to my eyes. Btw, I agree with that comment entirely.

[thorny]

That was my point, though: Once That Other Guy™ has become a trigger for something as low-level as your fight-or-flight reactions, "forgiveness" is something that newfangled neocortex may waste its time with (if I may channel Mr. Reptilian Brain here).

And my point was that different people react differently.

We don't know whether this will trigger back-of-the-head terror in Emil every time he looks at Lalli. And, if this does happen, we don't know whether it will wear off.

None of these things are flat out automatic reactions that happen exactly the same way in all people, at all stages of life, and in all circumstances. [ETA, rather belatedly: I'd include the slow grooming abusers often engage in as varying the circumstances; as well as a lack of actual or perceived choice on the part of the abused -- some people stay because they don't think they've got any better options. Sometimes their thinking this is because the abuser's gradually convinced them of it.]

-- and this situation actually reminds me a bit of an old story:

'What would you think of somebody who jumps on top of a little old lady, knocks her down on a concrete sidewalk, and rolls her over and over, slapping at her, while she screams her head off?'



' -- now what if I told you that the little old lady's clothes were on fire?'


While we're at it: would people be reacting in the same way if Lalli (who is physically incapable of doing this right now) had instead grabbed Emil by the arm and dragged him away? What if he'd dislocated Emil's arm in the process, and then kept right on dragging?

[wavewright62]

JoB got my original point, which was that regardless of why Lalli & Emil came to this point, their dynamic will be different from here on out, with aftereffects of the torture tainting their relationship (further).  We don't know how this will manifest, and I'm going to wait and see, but it was a helluva line to cross. 
I'd forgotten about the soup incident when I wrote on Friday night, and I also point up not the flower incident, but the oh-so-casual bonk on the head with the waterjug just before it (hahaha wasn't that funny - NO it wasn't).  This is straight up abuse.

Edit:  How would I have played this scene?  Sing, dammit Lalli, sing - sing a runo, sing the national anthem, sing Incy-Wincy Spider for all I care, just sing, and sing it firmly.  That would turn Emil's head.

[thorny]

I think I'm still puzzled as to what people think Lalli should have done instead.

Admittedly, we don't know for sure whether he had gentler choices. He certainly tried just shouting at Emil first, though. And I've seen no evidence either that Lalli knows anything gentler which would work; or that, if Lalli doesn't somehow stop Emil from going into that building, either of them has any chance of getting out of there alive and non-trollified.

[wavewright62]

Slightly aside this topic, so separate post:  I wonder if Minna is setting up the next adventure to have a similar time jump as the Prologue, seeing descendants of these characters living in a world affected by what they've done in the Silent World.
Along those lines, having seen the City of Hunger concept art of Lalli & Onni as cyborgs, I wonder further (pure blue-sky speculation) if Minna is preparing us for a more robotic (remorseless?) Lalli.

[Gwenno]

Edit:  How would I have played this scene?  Sing, dammit Lalli, sing - sing a runo, sing the national anthem, sing Incy-Wincy Spider for all I care, just sing, and sing it firmly.  That would turn Emil's head.

While I would have loved it if Lalli had come up with something a bit nicer to steer Emil away from the voices, I really don't think he had a lot of options available to him. We've only seen Lalli perform runo under far more controlled circumstances, with time to do the whole thing properly and at his full ability, but right now Lalli is little more than an echo in Emil's head. Having busted himself up a lot with the previous spell, I'm pretty sure anything fancy is beyond his ability (and I'm pretty sure what to do when hitch-hiking in another person's head isn't covered in mage training either). To have any impact at all, he is forced to inflict pain upon himself hoping that the reflection of it is going to shock Emil out of the troll's control... but he doesn't know this for sure even then? Lalli had literally seconds to decide on whether he was going to betray his friend or let him die. He chooses the former. In the last panel, I saw no sardonic leer or ironic sigh, but resignation to his choice and grim resolve to continue with it despite what he knows it will cost the both of them, because I think Lalli truly believes that if he is soft-hearted here, it will mean both of their deaths and worse.

[Róisín]

Gwenno, I think you have summed it up well. The bottom line is that this is not 21st century California, but the post-apocalyptic Silent World, in which terrible things can happen. I don't see what else he could have done. For all we know, more advanced mages may have access to other means, such as a stronger version of the troll's siren song, but while Onni may know such things, Lalli clearly doesn't. He may also, as you say, be incapable of that level of magic, for the same reasons he can't physically drag Emil away - he is at present a mere shadow of himself.

[Keeper]

A lot has already been said, but I want to point out one thing: A lot of people keep mentioning that it was this or facing a "fate worse than death," that is, possibly being trollified. However, Lalli and Emil are both immune. So, if Lalli did nothing, or if this or anything else he chose to do failed, and if Emil doesn't either get away or kill this thing, they're straight up going to die.

[Sc0ut]

A lot has already been said, but I want to point out one thing: A lot of people keep mentioning that it was this or facing a "fate worse than death," that is, possibly being trollified. However, Lalli and Emil are both immune. So, if Lalli did nothing, or if this or anything else he chose to do failed, and if Emil doesn't either get away or kill this thing, they're straight up going to die.

I didn't mean getting trollified, I know they're both immune. I was thinking about their souls being prevented to find their way after death. Just a supposition ofc, but I don't think it's such a stretch considering 1. We know there is a non-insignificant number of souls left behind, and not all of them seem to be trollified (see pastor A.) 2. We know things that happen in the physical world can affect souls, like when Lalli lost his luonto after exerting himself with a spell. So there may well be special issues if you're killed by a troll, especially if you're a mage and your luonto isn't really at its best, like for Lalli right now. This is the type of information we don't have, but Lalli might, or at least might suspect/fear it.

[Róisín]

For what it's worth my own headcanon is that anyone, immune or not, absorbed by trolls or giants, gets added to the unwilling collective so long as they were still alive when they were absorbed. Bodies of which the souls have already escaped just get eaten/absorbed as meat, fuel, whatever. This may even be common knowledge, especially among mages and their kin, and would explain Tuuri's reaction to the confirmation that she was infected, and the fact that the job description for Finnish mages includes 'freeing the souls trapped in trolls and beasts'.

[Sc0ut]

For what it's worth my own headcanon is that anyone, immune or not, absorbed by trolls or giants, gets added to the unwilling collective so long as they were still alive when they were absorbed. Bodies of which the souls have already escaped just get eaten/absorbed as meat, fuel, whatever. This may even be common knowledge, especially among mages and their kin, and would explain Tuuri's reaction to the confirmation that she was infected, and the fact that the job description for Finnish mages includes 'freeing the souls trapped in trolls and beasts'.

I like this headcanon!