Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[Sc0ut]

Windy, that's an interesting point about culture. Could you maybe share the titles of the "cheerful" books you mentioned?

[urbicande]

3st: Even if serum could not work as protection for humans, it could possibly be weaponized as chemical weapon against trolls and giants. After all, they require brains to stay put... and serum KILL THE BRAIN. No need to reclaim areas by force - just disperce the serum aerosole (better from the air) and wait until most of Rush creatures would drop dead.

Actually, I'm thinking that the serum is what created the ghosts more than anything else.  These are the people who had the serum.  But even then they were harmless until leaftroll got mixed up in it and THEN things changed.   Maybe there was something special about one of the people who got the serum. Maybe they were a nascent mage (since magic seems to have come into the world about the same time as the Illness -- I've opined that they're connected before).

ETA:  And in looking for the thread where I speculated on the magical nature of the Illness I found this old thread.

[Windfighter]

Windy, that's an interesting point about culture. Could you maybe share the titles of the "cheerful" books you mentioned?

I only knew the titles in Swedish, but after some googling I have now found them in English to make it easier for you peeps!
The Charming Mass Suicide (I did not manage to find a link that did not offer spoilers though, sorry about that)
A man called Ove
Both has been made into movies even, but the charming mass suicide has gotten very bad reviews. So I totally need to watch that one some day! After I have re-read both of the books that is.
Note to self: Locate a copy of The Charming Mass Suicide

[Ragnarok]

It's good to remember that Minna is Scandinavian, so thanks for reminding us of that, Windy.
Oh God, Swedish and Finnish humor
We're going to all need therapy after SSSS is finished aren't we

[Windfighter]

It's good to remember that Minna is Scandinavian, so thanks for reminding us of that, Windy.
Oh God, Swedish and Finnish humor
We're going to all need therapy after SSSS is finished aren't we

...yes. yes, you are.

[Hrollo]

I understand that, as the story goes into direction that were not what some people expected, these people may be disappointed and not like the comic anymore. They are not "wrong" for feeling that way, that's just how they feel. But the people who still like the comic are not "wrong" either, that's also just how they fill.

I always find it a bit presumtuous when the people who are in the process of no longer liking something seek validation, often in quite condemnatory language, from the people who still like it fine. This isn't a something that has truth value, you cannot prove through logic and reason that the comic is no longer good. It's just no longer good for you, and you won't change the mind of those who remain fan of it (no more than they will change your own mind back).

[Róisín]

True that, Rollo. There is sometimes a fine line between discussion and rant. But however much we may be invested in it, the story is not our story, it's Minna's. In a way this harks back to those discussions about 'why won't Minna include people of xxxxrace/gender/colour/sexual orientation?' Same answer: because it's her story, and she is telling it as she sees it.

Those who want a different story can always write their own, including the stuff they want to see, leaving out the stuff they don't. They might do it as AU fanfic,or, *gasp* go so far as to produce their own original work.

[Sunflower]

Well.. that's certainly one point of view, Plinkett.

I don't know where you've been hanging out, but in my side of the fandom (which is mostly tumblr these days) many people felt outraged and even betrayed after Tuuri's death and some of the things that happened after. Heck, I'm not happy about it myself either. So while there are people who are supportive of the comic and Minna no matter what, there are definitely many others who criticize when they don't like something, and still read the comic (or cease to, in at least one case I know of).

For what's worth, I agree that more emotional displays from the remaining team would be welcome. I'm aware they are now focused on very basic survival in a dangerous situation, and simply can't afford doing too much depressive thinking, also some are possibly in shock. So while it makes total sense, the more this expressionless state continues, the more I feel it dehumanizes the characters a bit, or at least drags the comic in a much darker genre than what it says on the tin. It's one of the things I feel weird and conflicted about with SSSS, and part of it is because I can't tell if Minna does it on purpose or not. Has she deliberately labeled it as a "light-hearted adventure with elements of horror", knowing this would amplify the shock of what happens to Tuuri, or has the story gotten out of hand? Or, worst of all, does this still actually count as a light-hearted adventure in Minna's opinion?!

It's not the only thing that has bothered me in this way in SSSS. I had the same reaction to the page where the Icelandic coast guard sinks the civilian boat, and Minna's comment was to "not think about it too much", because she doesn't intend to delve into ethical matters with this story. But putting heavily ethically loaded events in your story and then refusing to address them is... well, not the most mature of choices in my opinion.

But like Róisín said, it's unfair to judge a work of art that is still incomplete. I'll probably keep reading to the end, even though the comic has already made me raise an eyebrow or three. Imo it's really interesting to see what choices Minna will make from now on, even if we end up getting something very different than we hoped for. I hope you stick around too, and maybe find some fanfic that takes the story in a direction you're happier with. There is a lot of fix-it out there!

I like the way you phrase this, Sc0ut.  I've felt a lot of dissatisfaction myself with the recent turn of the story, which has made me re-examine the overall emotional tone.  Sometimes, like you, I wonder if this is Minna's idea of "light-hearted adventure."  Because while there are moments of warmth, empathy, and acknowledgement of loss/sorrow (often via Emil, who seems to be going through a surprising amount of emotional growth considering how self-centered he came off originally), there are also a lot of interactions that just leave a sour taste in my mouth if we're meant to take them seriously.  (Like Siv and Torbjorn's attitude towards their children.)  And sure, we could interpret situations like that in a purely comic context where there aren't serious long-term consequences... but that's harder to do in a story where other things with Very Serious Consequences are happening all the time.  (Not just Tuuri's death, but the Giant Firebird, Reynir's visions, etc.)  I suppose this says more about me than Minna, but I find those empathy gaps hard to swallow. 

And although this could be considered a natural consequence of a world where life can be "nasty, brutish, and short", literature going back thousands of years shows that even hardened warriors in many cultures shed a tear and spoke heartfelt words for their fallen comrades and relatives, once they weren't in the thick of battle.  Look at the Iliad, or the Mahabharata.

Windfighter may have a point about Minna being Finnish.  I remember listening to my first album by Varttina (a very cool folk-rock group from Finland) and observing that so many of the songs were about exile, loss, loneliness, or being alone in the gloomy forest.  "Yes," my friend deadpanned.  "Welcome to Finland."  Maybe Finns have such high expectations for being stoic and silent in the face of pain that Minna assumes that's how people typically react? 

I think this a thing with SSSS that bothers me the most. Certain key points in the story, especially times when a debriefing should have happened, haven't been shown for some reason. Not everything has to be shown, but leaving out story critical moments in favor of showing the team doing laundry just feels a bit weird.

Don't get me wrong, I like that mundane tasks are shown too, gives depth to the story. But since Minna's page budget clearly is lavish, it feels even more strange to leave out important stuff.

THIS really struck a chord with me. 

This has frustrated me as well for a while now. I don't like to be spoon-fed all the information, but for one's brain to fill in a missing sequence, that sequence has to have (shown) consequences. For instance, if I see Reynir consistently avoiding Mikkel, I can deduce something happened between them, or at least something significant happened in Reynir's mental state (new information? Shift of perspective? definitely *something*, at least), even if it hasn't been showed "on screen".

But we never had anything like that with any missing scenes - they just don't exist, left no impact whatsoever. The team acts like they never talked together about any of the emergency situations they've run into. And this is something I can't explain as good writing, no matter how much I try. I suppose it is one of the places where Minna's lack of experience shows.

This too. 

-- as far as what is and isn't being shown: I wonder whether Minna might be so immersed in her world and her characters that she forgets that much of what she knows about it and about them isn't known to her readers. As has been pointed out, she's fairly new at this. I once did what I thought was a complete short-short set in a world that's been working in the back of my head for many years; but when I showed it to a friend, she thought it was nowhere near complete, that it needed much more detail. When I read it over again, I realized she was right; I can taste and smell that place by now, but there wasn't enough in there for anyone else to do so.

Another possibility, of course -- and this we can't know yet -- is that she does intend to give us this information; but has reasons not to give it to us until later.

ETA: and a third possibility is that she thinks the story may otherwise take too long to get where it's going, and is trying to speed up the action by leaving out a lot of discussion. Some people don't want to read anything that's got a lot of talking heads in it. It's hard, or more likely impossible, to please all possible readers.

I suppose we won't know which explanation is the best fit until the story ends... which at this rate could be well into the 2020s!  (As long as it doesn't take us into Year Zero...)

[Hrollo]

I think cultural differences and even individual emotional experiences can indeed create a lot of dissonance between how a creator perceives their own work and how other people receive it.

When I was in the process of writing a novel, I had someone read an early draft of the first chapters. In my mind, what I had written was, while definitely on the somber side of thing, still comparatively tame and light compared to some of the stories I had read/watched from other people. My proofreader told me it was one of the darkest and most depressing things they had ever read. It hadn't occure to me that writing these chapters when I was both in an emotional dish and quite doubtful on my own skills as a writer had strongly colored my perception of what I had written — I thought it was tame because there was no way I could be talented enough to write something actually dark.

[LooNEY_DAC]

I feel this is relevant to the issue at hand.

[Sc0ut]

I feel this is relevant to the issue at hand.

I would be careful about brushing everything under a thick stereotype of "haha, those crazy Nordics, am I right?!". While the Nordic countries do have their share of depressing cinema and weird children's stories, the Moomin books also come from there, and they're as far removed from cynicism as it gets. Even the suicide-themed books that Windy mentioned earlier don't actually have any completed suicide in them, and have happy endings (yes, I went and read the plots). So, Minna has managed to make an arguably darker thing than some of the first examples people think of to illustrate how "dark" Nordic media is.

And for a different approach: while it is true that the United States make a lot of gory horror movies, it doesn't mean their entire culture is dominated by gory horror. We shouldn't expect that from every US-made webcomic, especially not one that claims to be "a heart-warming family tale". See what I mean?

[LooNEY_DAC]

I would be careful about brushing everything under a thick stereotype of "haha, those crazy Nordics, am I right?!". While the Nordic countries do have their share of depressing cinema and weird children's stories, the Moomin books also come from there, and they're as far removed from cynicism as it gets. Even the suicide-themed books that Windy mentioned earlier don't actually have any completed suicide in them, and have happy endings (yes, I went and read the plots). So, Minna has managed to make an arguably darker thing than some of the first examples people think of to illustrate how "dark" Nordic media is.

And for a different approach: while it is true that the United States make a lot of gory horror movies, it doesn't mean their entire culture is dominated by gory horror. We shouldn't expect that from every US-made webcomic, especially not one that claims to be "a heart-warming family tale". See what I mean?

I linked to a comic made by a Scandinavian highlighting a trend in Scandinavian media and said that it was relevant to the discussion at hand, wherein someone had pointed out the same trend in Scandinavian media. How is that "brushing everything under a thick stereotype"?

Also: while not every US-made webcomic has to be about gory horror, if one that claimed to be a "heart-warming family tale" had a section that had gory horror in it, would discussing how and why it had gone into the gory horror also be "brushing everything under a thick stereotype"?

[Sc0ut]

Also: while not every US-made webcomic has to be about gory horror, if one that claimed to be a "heart-warming family tale" had a section that had gory horror in it, would discussing how and why it had gone into the gory horror also be "brushing everything under a thick stereotype"?

Yes, if your only contribution would be "Well, it's an American webcomic".

[Róisín]

Sunflower, I think you're right about empathy, sorrow and grief for loss being part of the oldest tales. Look at the 'Epic of Gilgamesh'. And for that matter, the 'Táin'. When I do my yearly gig as storyteller at the Gumeracha Mediaeval Fair, I always save the 'Fight at the Ford' from the 'Táin' to tell around the fire in the evening, to the Viking Society guys who have been doing fighting displays during the day. I count it a bad year when I can't make them cry. That part of the tale is where the hero and his best friend since boyhood/coweth companion/soulmate find themselves as champions on opposite sides in a particularly bloody and vicious war.

Up to that point the violence has been treated fairly lightly, in a sort of braggadocio-and-severed-heads-swinging-from-chariots way. Then you get the two young men confronting one another, each trying to talk the other out of it (but one has been tricked into giving his sacred oath to fight, the other is defending his helpless kindred just the other side of the border). They fight three days of formal setpiece duels at the ford, with no resolution. One has food, which he shares with his mate, the other has access to a healer, which he likewise shares. 'Their horses passed the nights in the same field, and their charioteers by the same fire'. Just to add to the tragedy, their two charioteers are brothers.

On the fourth day, they get serious. One is killed, and the one who killed him is completely shattered. His lament over his dead friend, the bit that starts: 'It was all play, all sport, until Ferdiad came to the ford' is one of the finest pieces of Irish epic poetry. But my point is that this incident is all the more poignant because for most of the epic the protagonists just man up and get on with it, because that's what you do when you are in an epic. There are moments of tenderness, some of them in Cuchullain's courtship of Emer, or 'The Tale of the Death of Cuchullain's One Son'; some in 'Deirdre of the Sorrows', which is one of the prequel tales to the Táin, but mostly these are subsumed in the action.

And I think that at present much of the open mourning and emotional debriefing of SSSS has been similarly been subsumed in the action. I think we will see some of it eventually, but not yet, because it would be unwise of the characters to do that stuff in the midst of fighting/running for their lives. Though I would be unsurprised if some of it came out between Mikkel and Sigrun, talking by the fire through the long dark nights...

There is a final bit to 'The Fight at the Ford', where the hero is collapsed mourning and bleeding over his dead friend, and his charioteer comes and shakes him and tells him to get moving if he wants to live, because 'The men of Ireland are coming for you now, and now that Ferdiad has been slain, it is no longer of single combat that they are thinking......'. Always the practicalities, just when one is settling down for a nice long angsty brood!

[JoB]

Maybe there was something special about one of the people who got the serum. Maybe they were a nascent mage

As a rule of thumb, in the places where the serum ghosts originated (Amalienborg, Kastellet, OUH), we had quite precisely one for every occupied bed; hence the estimates of 100% ghosts per "cured" patient in Y0 but <=1% of trolls from untreated infected.

Unless, in the middle of the Danish society breaking down in Y0, they managed to reserve entire emergency treatment centers for only "nascent mages" or whatever other novel subgroup, I don't see the serum being given to such a subset. Not to mention that the scientists developing it were shown not to have any such specialization in mind (remember the meeting and the military types grasping for no less that saving the nation?).