Latest Page Discussions/Comic Update Chitchat

[Hrollo]

Latest page gives me a strong feel from the movie Excalibur, the scenes where Percival is wandering alone for years in frozen wasterlands looking for the Grail, with this music playing:

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Come to think of it there's also a similar scene of solitary wandering through the frozen wasteland in Doctor Zhivago.

At least Emil and Lalli are together.

[Lazy8]

Seriously, what is up with Emil this chapter? This is the same guy who cried over dead kittens and had to be comforted by Sigrun, then tore himself to pieces over putting a Beast out of its misery and had to be comforted by Lalli, yet now he's just finished burying a crewmate, and watched his best friend perform final rites for his cousin, and his reaction pretty much amounts to "Can we go yet? I'm bored." Emil occasionally saying extremely insensitive things out of sheer ignorance is only to be expected, such as his incredibly misguided pep talk to Lalli, but this goes beyond Innocently Insensitive and straight into sheer narcissism. This is not the Emil we were introduced to, and call me on blasphemy if you want to but I'm starting to wonder whether Minna just flubbed the writing.

[thorny]

Maybe this is just too much for him and part of his mind is protecting him by shutting his feelings down.

Some people are able to weep easily at a lesser grief but not at a greater one.

[Ragnarok]

Maybe this is just too much for him and part of his mind is protecting him by shutting his feelings down.

Some people are able to weep easily at a lesser grief but not at a greater one.

Emil has absorbed the concentrated denial of the entire post-750 Minnion hivemind. Everything is fine. Tuuri is alright.

[LooNEY_DAC]

Seriously, what is up with Emil this chapter? This is the same guy who cried over dead kittens and had to be comforted by Sigrun, then tore himself to pieces over putting a Beast out of its misery and had to be comforted by Lalli, yet now he's just finished burying a crewmate, and watched his best friend perform final rites for his cousin, and his reaction pretty much amounts to "Can we go yet? I'm bored." Emil occasionally saying extremely insensitive things out of sheer ignorance is only to be expected, such as his incredibly misguided pep talk to Lalli, but this goes beyond Innocently Insensitive and straight into sheer narcissism. This is not the Emil we were introduced to, and call me on blasphemy if you want to but I'm starting to wonder whether Minna just flubbed the writing.

I'm thinking that we're seeing the fallout from the pep-talk-gone-bad here, in that Emil knows that Lalli doesn't want him around, even though it was the only way Sigrun would let Lalli do what he needed to do; this is not conducive to attempts at sharing anything.
In fact, on the next page, we see Emil trying to close the distance (in more than one sense), and being rebuffed by Lalli, which Emil accepts by staying back and not trying to catch up again until the next page, where Lalli's uneasy enough to assent.
Standard Disclaimer: I could easily be wrong about all of this.

[Sunflower]

Seriously, what is up with Emil this chapter? This is the same guy who cried over dead kittens and had to be comforted by Sigrun, then tore himself to pieces over putting a Beast out of its misery and had to be comforted by Lalli, yet now he's just finished burying a crewmate, and watched his best friend perform final rites for his cousin, and his reaction pretty much amounts to "Can we go yet? I'm bored."

Emil occasionally saying extremely insensitive things out of sheer ignorance is only to be expected, such as his incredibly misguided pep talk to Lalli, but this goes beyond Innocently Insensitive and straight into sheer narcissism. This is not the Emil we were introduced to, and call me on blasphemy if you want to but I'm starting to wonder whether Minna just flubbed the writing.

Exactly.  My only thought is that we don't know how much time has passed since Tuuri died -- and, more importantly here, since the survivors learned she's dead -- so maybe we could assume several days have passed?  Otherwise, that is disturbing. 

I have to say, much though I love SSSS, I'm sometimes bothered by the sharp discrepancies in tone.  YMMV, and I don't want to open a whole debate right here about the allowable bounds of tone/event within a given genre (since I blathered on so much about that in the immediate wake of Tuuri's death)... but I think Minna's characters do often have odd lapses in the level of compassion, concern, etc., that one expects normal people to have in a realistic (and reasonably peaceful, stable) setting.  One example is how Siv and Torbjorn relate to their kids. 

Emil, bless his sparkly heart, is actually sweet with them despite their being rambunctious, but their own parents just seem anxious to be shed of them.  This can be funny in a purely-for-yuks setting like a TV sitcom, but in real life I'd be a bit concerned if I saw parents being so distant to their children on returning after several days away.  (All the more if you hypothesize, like I do, that in the Known World children would be a precious resource and therefore would be cherished.... though perhaps the downside of a pro-child policy would mean people like Siv and Torbjorn, who really aren't suited for parenthood, face social pressure to have kids regardless.)

Who knows whether these weird chilly patches reflect quirks of Minna's own personality (she seems extremely introverted), eccentric theories of how people relate to one another and how to reflect that in a story, or a subtle portrayal of a post-apocalyptic culture so affected by generations of death and horror that now they're all "LOL nothing matters."  (You see that in some modern Russian and Eastern European writing.)

[Hrollo]

Seriously, what is up with Emil this chapter? This is the same guy who cried over dead kittens and had to be comforted by Sigrun, then tore himself to pieces over putting a Beast out of its misery and had to be comforted by Lalli, yet now he's just finished burying a crewmate, and watched his best friend perform final rites for his cousin, and his reaction pretty much amounts to "Can we go yet? I'm bored."

That's not what happened at all?

Emil was waiting for Lalli in the cat-tank. Lalli went to find him. Emil asked "Are we going now?". Not "Can we go yet?" or Can we go already?". Ie: he was asking for confirmation that Lalli was indeed signifying to him that they were leaving, as opposed to needing Emil for something else.

[Sc0ut]

Lazy8, that might be flubbed writing (after all good art is largely in the eye of the beholder) but it's also worth saying that not everyone reacts to shock and grief in the same way. Appearing unemotional is not always a sign of narcissism. In dangerous situations, emotions can take a back seat and only come out when one is feeling safer, sometimes days or even months later. I think Emil might be the one hardest hit by the loss, actually. He doesn't have Lalli's and Reynir's certainty about afterlife, nor Sigrun's and Mikkel's life experience and perspective that comes with it. He's very likely still in shock, just putting one foot in front of the other.

[Sunflower]

Lazy8, that might be flubbed writing (after all good art is largely in the eye of the beholder) but it's also worth saying that not everyone reacts to shock and grief in the same way. Appearing unemotional is not always a sign of narcissism. In dangerous situations, emotions can take a back seat and only come out when one is feeling safer, sometimes days or even months later. I think Emil might be the one hardest hit by the loss, actually. He doesn't have Lalli's and Reynir's certainty about afterlife, nor Sigrun's and Mikkel's life experience and perspective that comes with it. He's very likely still in shock, just putting one foot in front of the other.

Good point.  I'll be very curious to see his and the rest of the crew's reactions when they finally start talking about losing Tuuri (or at least we get a clue to how much time has passed). 

[Róisín]

I think Sc0ut has the right of it - and as well as shock, this is not the time or place for frantic expressions of emotion. They are still in a dangerous situation, and need to be in control of themselves to survive. I doubt that Emil has any emotional map for dealing with this situation.

[Lazy8]

That's not what happened at all?

Emil was waiting for Lalli in the cat-tank. Lalli went to find him. Emil asked "Are we going now?". Not "Can we go yet?" or Can we go already?". Ie: he was asking for confirmation that Lalli was indeed signifying to him that they were leaving, as opposed to needing Emil for something else.

I'm not just going by what he said, though. I'm going by his nonverbal language as well, and his expression looks bored, and he's also not expressing a whole lot of concern about how badly he messed up earlier.

Lazy8, that might be flubbed writing (after all good art is largely in the eye of the beholder) but it's also worth saying that not everyone reacts to shock and grief in the same way. Appearing unemotional is not always a sign of narcissism. In dangerous situations, emotions can take a back seat and only come out when one is feeling safer, sometimes days or even months later. I think Emil might be the one hardest hit by the loss, actually. He doesn't have Lalli's and Reynir's certainty about afterlife, nor Sigrun's and Mikkel's life experience and perspective that comes with it. He's very likely still in shock, just putting one foot in front of the other.

*sigh* Okay look, it honestly bugs me, a lot, that you're advocating for Emil here despite him showing no sign whatsoever that he actually cares, yet you didn't care at all to give Sigrun that same benefit of the doubt when she didn't seem sufficiently torn up over killing that water beast. As a matter of fact, the exact phrase you used was "high-functioning psychopath"? That's incredibly unfair.

(And I think that no matter how you spin it, the one hit hardest by the loss here is Lalli.)

I think Sc0ut has the right of it - and as well as shock, this is not the time or place for frantic expressions of emotion. They are still in a dangerous situation, and need to be in control of themselves to survive. I doubt that Emil has any emotional map for dealing with this situation.

See, I believe that with regards to Sigrun and Mikkel's behavior - they're older, they've seen more loss, Sigrun especially has got to keep it together in order to get the rest of the team out alive, and Mikkel's never been particularly expressive to begin with. Emil, though? Again, guy who was completely broken up over dead kittens. Guy who takes off running and screaming for Sigrun whenever anything attacks him. Emil is the last character I'd expect to be in control of himself under emotional stress.

[wavewright62]

Seriously, what is up with Emil this chapter? This is the same guy who cried over dead kittens and had to be comforted by Sigrun, then tore himself to pieces over putting a Beast out of its misery and had to be comforted by Lalli, yet now he's just finished burying a crewmate, and watched his best friend perform final rites for his cousin, and his reaction pretty much amounts to "Can we go yet? I'm bored." Emil occasionally saying extremely insensitive things out of sheer ignorance is only to be expected, such as his incredibly misguided pep talk to Lalli, but this goes beyond Innocently Insensitive and straight into sheer narcissism. This is not the Emil we were introduced to, and call me on blasphemy if you want to but I'm starting to wonder whether Minna just flubbed the writing.

Lazy8, that might be flubbed writing (after all good art is largely in the eye of the beholder) but it's also worth saying that not everyone reacts to shock and grief in the same way. Appearing unemotional is not always a sign of narcissism. In dangerous situations, emotions can take a back seat and only come out when one is feeling safer, sometimes days or even months later. I think Emil might be the one hardest hit by the loss, actually. He doesn't have Lalli's and Reynir's certainty about afterlife, nor Sigrun's and Mikkel's life experience and perspective that comes with it. He's very likely still in shock, just putting one foot in front of the other.

Good point.  I'll be very curious to see his and the rest of the crew's reactions when they finally start talking about losing Tuuri (or at least we get a clue to how much time has passed).

I think that in canon it's still the next day after Tuuri died. 
Count backward: Lalli's extra rites took a few hours, so they're only a few hours after the wheelbarrow party left.
Lalli started his rites while the others were assembled around Tuuri's pyre.
It's possible there's a gap between Tuuri's death and her pyre, but Sigrun is antsy to keep moving, not wanting to spend another night in the spot with the kaput Cattank.
Mikkel sent Lalli & Emil to get the wheelbarrow & supplies just after the Cattank died, maaayyyybe the next day, planning to leave the next day.  Tuuri heard the voices on the evening of that day, after Lalli & Emil get back, and drowned herself then as well.  Recap: the demise of the Cattank, the supply foray where Emil & Lalli fell out, and Tuuri's death were all on the same day.
The night before that, Reynir had his doggo dream.  That was right after he & Tuuri played cards & had a chat about regrets.
The day before (based on Tuuri's 'we'll talk tomorrow'), Reynir went apes**t on Lalli, Lalli retaliated, and Emil separated them.
.
8(
Conclusion: today's creepy bridge page is still a day, maybe two, after the Cattank's expiry.  So in total, we have had as little as 3 and as many as 5 days since Emil had to intervene with Lalli as a comparatively sensitive mediator.  (Lalli & Reynir got kinda sorted out by Tuuri, but Emil did not.)  Lalli spurned Emil rather forcefully just yesterday, or maybe the day before, and then before any of that could be resolved, Tuuri died.
.
Those few days have taken months to play out for us, so it seems like an extended turn in the writing, but I'm thinking we need to give Emil a benefit of doubt.  It's been a really. tough. coupl'a days.

[Hrollo]

I'm not just going by what he said, though. I'm going by his nonverbal language as well, and his expression looks bored, and he's also not expressing a whole lot of concern about how badly he messed up earlier.

Well from my point of view this is an uncharitable interpretation of what evidence we have of his current state of mind (which is to say, not a lot of evidence in any particular direction). We all have biased and slanted readings of what the acts of a character are supposed to actually imply about their inner psychology, based on our own experience and such, but it seems here you're letting Emil's earlier misguided attempt at conforting Lalli color negatively everything he subsequently does, no matter how innocuous.

My impression of Emil is, on the contrary, of someone who started as pretty insensitive and was blathering a lot of random hurting things in the first chapters, but who has since then mattured a lot, learned to pay a lot more attention to the people around, watch his tongue, and try to act with care and warmth toward others.

Now that's just my interpretation, which surely has its own biases and blind spots, but it goes to show that the significance of Emil's behavior is not a clear cut fact that anyone should be compelled to agree on.

[Lazy8]

Well from my point of view this is an uncharitable interpretation of what evidence we have of his current state of mind (which is to say, not a lot of evidence in any particular direction). We all have biased and slanted readings of what the acts of a character are supposed to actually imply about their inner psychology, based on our own experience and such, but it seems here you're letting Emil's earlier misguided attempt at conforting Lalli color negatively everything he subsequently does, no matter how innocuous.

My impression of Emil is, on the contrary, of someone who started as pretty insensitive and was blathering a lot of random hurting things in the first chapters, but who has since then mattured a lot, learned to pay a lot more attention to the people around, watch his tongue, and try to act with care and warmth toward others.

Now that's just my interpretation, which surely has its own biases and blind spots, but it goes to show that the significance of Emil's behavior is not a clear cut fact that anyone should be compelled to agree on.

Oh, I don't think I'm letting Emil's misguided pep talk color everything he does. (Though I'll admit, it bothers me quite a bit that he's shown no sign whatsoever of even realizing what he did wrong.) That pep talk, while it was certainly misguided and certainly made me angry at Emil, was still within the bounds of Emil's prior characterization (opening his mouth without thinking, saying something unintentionally patronizing or insensitive). This isn't. I find his behavior here incredibly jarring because it's completely at odds with the way he's acted before - caring, empathic, not always reading Lalli perfectly but at least being willing to consider and adjust his own behavior, and he's certainly never acted so callous toward the death of anything.

Believe me, I don't want to be reading Emil as an uncaring narcissist. I just don't like that either that or "Minna's writing suddenly took a nosedive" are the only two explanations that make sense to me right now.

[Keeper]

What I've been thinking is that right now, Emil isn't really sure how to express all the emotions he's feeling, and he doesn't really have any good opportunities to either. Like wavewright said, it's been maybe a day or two since the "shopping" scene, after which point Emil has been cut off from connecting emotionally with Lalli for a while. So Tuuri's death came at a time when Emil and Lalli's relationship was strained and uncertain, Emil can't communicate with Reynir, and I doubt he feels very comfortable expressing whatever strong emotions he's feeling to either Sigrun or Mikkel.

So now to these recent pages- I don't think Emil is being an "uncaring narcissist." I think he's between a rock and a hard place emotionally, and to me it looks like he's finally giving Lalli the space he needs.  Also, looking back at page 759, Emil volunteers to stay with Lalli so he can finish his mage work. Then he patiently waits until Lalli finishes, and follows him away from the cattank. By trying to walk evenly with Lalli, he showed that he was willing to try and reconcile, but Lalli made it clear that he is in no mood for that, so Emil now hangs back.

I think Emil is still being quite sympathetic to Lalli, and not in the heavy-handed way that has caused them problems before.